Runic Awakening: Speculation

[PeteySödes]

 

IF they change it, thats the downside, yes. (You explained it way better than me . Appologies in general Brothers,  english isn`t my native Tongue, thats why I tend to ramble and all the Typos and Edits)

 

I am trying not to be unfriendly but this is more than "downside". This is a gigantic nerf to both WP and especially Wulfen.  They can keep these prayer/litanies far away from my WP if this is the trade off. This neutered version is absolutely terrible. Why would you even play WP? Or for that matter why bring a Stormwolf or Land Raider? Or use Wulfen at all? The only thing that makes them truly worth their points is having a WP nearby giving them reliable rerolls in combat phase.

 

 

I guess im just questioning the level of hyperbole here, I've ran my wulfen without a WP for almost a year now and they do work. I'd encourage you to think outside the box here and try some new setups or ways to use them.

[Bulwyf]

 

 

IF they change it, thats the downside, yes. (You explained it way better than me . Appologies in general Brothers,  english isn`t my native Tongue, thats why I tend to ramble and all the Typos and Edits)

 

I am trying not to be unfriendly but this is more than "downside". This is a gigantic nerf to both WP and especially Wulfen.  They can keep these prayer/litanies far away from my WP if this is the trade off. This neutered version is absolutely terrible. Why would you even play WP? Or for that matter why bring a Stormwolf or Land Raider? Or use Wulfen at all? The only thing that makes them truly worth their points is having a WP nearby giving them reliable rerolls in combat phase.

 

 

I guess im just questioning the level of hyperbole here, I've ran my wulfen without a WP for almost a year now and they do work. I'd encourage you to think outside the box here and try some new setups or ways to use them.

 

 

I've seen other SW players use their Wulfen in that way. It is, to be kind, not the best or even an efficient way to use them. Their only real value is coming out of a Stormwolf with a WP to give them rerolls. If this way of using them is now essentially prohibited by new rules then my TWC have new dust bunnies to share shelf space. 

[The Saint Ragnar]

I typically run my Wulfen on the hunt or behind my vehicles to try and block LOS. I then move my WP into position with his jump pack, normally advancing as I don't care if he charges he is there to buff. I think they only thing that has been nerfed about them is that very specific scenario of a Stormfang.

 

You can still do a Wulfen filled landraider with a jump character running behind it. Heck, you can still advance the WP behind the flyer as he should be able to catch up to it when the Wulfen disembark Turn 2 if you place him in the right starting spot.

 

Edit: What I'm saying is I don't think there is any reason to freak out about the book yet as we don't have it. Not to say we can't voice our discontent, but let's all take everything with a grain of salt until we see the book in a week and change.

Edited March 19, 2020 by The Saint Ragnar

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't consider that an erosion.

I mean, you can decide what it is for yourself, but the fact that they are providing less to no fluff on it at all in the very recent books (for PA, back to back) as they go along sure looks like a previous fluff removal to me.

 

...would have gotten the ''Combat Doctines'' system ... would also possess a ''Combat Doctrines'' system.

Well according to the Designer's Commentary, the Combat Doctrine system was always meant to be rigid. That was a very recent publication. The Combat Doctrines are intended to come across as a rigid system of tactical precepts. I don't know about you, but that doesn't seem appropriate for the Space Wolves lore now does it?

Not necessarily - I think we can all agree that the way Grey Knights fight is so far removed from any other Marines that their manner of warfare wouldn’t logically make any sense to use weapons they don’t have at all to do something they can’t do. There are no “Devastator equivalent” Grey Knights, while there are “Devastator equivalent” Space Wolves and the general manner of use is to provide long range fire-support.

 

Chaos Marines are similarly not currently trained in the same ways of war as modern Astartes - if these “ways of war” are old enough to date back the Horus Heresy, then at the least, not all of the Chaos Marines are going to have the same training.

 

I don’t agree with you about the doctrine concept suiting the other non-Codex compliant Chapters, but we’re just going to have to disagree on that, because it is probably going to come down to interpretation and mental picture of those other Chapters.

 

I’m not part of the development of these things, so I’m just going by what they wrote in the book fluff - I’m not going to deal with outside sources as “Word of God” on what the doctrines were meant to be (such as the Designer’s Commentary) or what Warhammer Community says they are - if the details were important enough to be included, then they should include them in the actual books. “Word of God” is easily changeable, reinterpreted, or given from a single perspective when an entire team may disagree and determine to re-write in later material.

 

If this was a retcon, it seems to me like a lazy retcon to justify giving the Space Wolves Combat Doctrines, instead of giving them a similar treatment to the Grey Knights. GW didn't even bother to rename the ''Devastator, Tactical, Assault'' naming system into something more appropriate for the Space Wolves.

It’s totally lazy - I’ve been very clear on that - I don’t like the way they did it or their justification at all. I will accept it, since fluff-wise they seemed to shy away from the actual fluff of it being a Codex thing, given the progressively less fluff included about them, but I don’t like it - hence my ranting about GW spending just a little bit of :cuss time in trying to make things fit the more unique situations (and that goes for other non-Codex compliant or “forcibly” (as in GW seems to have changed their nature some to ignore their non-compliant methods) compliant Chapters as well.

[Valerian]

Did I miss some buffs to our shooting game?

I reckon we'll get buffs to shooting with the new Combat Doctrines, when we're in the Devastator and Tactical phases.

[Bulwyf]

I typically run my Wulfen on the hunt or behind my vehicles to try and block LOS. I then move my WP into position with his jump pack, normally advancing as I don't care if he charges he is there to buff. I think they only thing that has been nerfed about them is that very specific scenario of a Stormfang.

 

You can still do a Wulfen filled landraider with a jump character running behind it. Heck, you can still advance the WP behind the flyer as he should be able to catch up to it when the Wulfen disembark Turn 2 if you place him in the right starting spot.

 

Edit: What I'm saying is I don't think there is any reason to freak out about the book yet as we don't have it. Not to say we can't voice our discontent, but let's all take everything with a grain of salt until we see the book in a week and change.

 

I don't think "freaking out" is posting objections and concerns to a massive nerf to our army.  I fully expect GW to do the worst possible job for SW with this update and so far from what I've seen I am not disappointed. I hope the book has hidden gems that make us anything more than the worst army in 8th edition. So far nothing I have seen has made me think otherwise.

[Oshikai]

Well, lets agree to disagree then. I don`t think its the worst possible Job at all and to me we are objectivly way better off then before, and we haven`t even seen everything. Is it perfect?Certainly not, am I looking forward to it. Hell yes.

[Bulwyf]

Well, lets agree to disagree then. I don`t think its the worst possible Job at all and to me we are objectivly way better off then before, and we haven`t even seen everything. Is it perfect?Certainly not, am I looking forward to it. Hell yes.

 

Being better does not mean we are suddenly competitive. I think we will be overall better off, perhaps, once this book is released but there's a difference in other armies being given a bazooka for upgrades and we get handed a dull butter knife. Technically you are better off with a dull butter knife but does it really matter to the other guy's bazooka pointed at you? 

[Dark Shepherd]

Pour some mjod out on the kerb for all the Fenrisian Wolves that didnt make it

 

Simon Grant hinted on fb there was something coming (rules wise) for them

[lonewolf81]

i expect a strat for fen wolves and one for wulfen

[Gherrick]

I just want TWC and fen wolves to be functionally useful again. Free flanking would be a great start, as well as limiting withdrawls.

[Bulwyf]

I just want TWC and fen wolves to be functionally useful again. Free flanking would be a great start, as well as limiting withdrawls.

 

I sent in suggestions to change wolves to troop option to help give us a cheap screen to fill out formations. I would kill to have TWC be viable again.

[Chazzmos]

I must've kind of missed this, but Ragnar's new 6" consolidate aura gives an insane amount of movement potential with the 'Honour the Chapter' fight again stratagem.

 

You could charge, pile in, wipe a unit with Ragnar, consolidate 6", fight again, pile in 3", wipe a unit, consolidate 6".  The biggest hurdles to this happening are positioning and that the second unit you wipe would have needed to be within 12" as a charge target at the start of the phase.

 

The more I think about the Battlelust as an aura, the more powerful it becomes.  We just need to get that first charge off, and then everything is consolidating and characters are heroically intervening across the board.

 

Do you think there could be a situation where you have an Impulsor with Ragnar and 5 x Intercessors, you zoom up as close as possible, charge with everything (including the Impulsor), consolidate 6" into a new unit then position everything so that when the enemy falls back, the Impulsor is the closest target for shooting (so Ragnar is protected), but the enemy is still within 6" of him for a heroic intervention.

 

Also, as an aside, I wish War Howl (re-roll charges) affected dreadnoughts.

[PeteySödes]

You would just need to over-declare on the charges though since you can’t swipe at what you don’t charge. Risky, but I like where your heads at. ;)

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Flipping those impulsors further into the enemy lines is crazy good. Ragnar’s consolidation aura is so strong.

[Chazzmos]

Flipping those impulsors further into the enemy lines is crazy good. Ragnar’s consolidation aura is so strong.

I think I'd missed that Battlelust affects everything!  Charging with vehicles and a blender unit (e.g. Wulfen or Ragnar) means the whole lot can keep flipping through the enemy lines.

You would just need to over-declare on the charges though since you can’t swipe at what you don’t charge. Risky, but I like where your heads at.

Yeah, you want a situation where the Impulsor is still eating the overwatch.  Or it could be an Invictor or a Redemptor?

[Iain_Stormeyes]

 

Yeah, you want a situation where the Impulsor is still eating the overwatch.  Or it could be an Invictor or a Redemptor?

 

 

I bought 3 Invictors to work on during the quarantine.  I'm hoping that 3 of them will act as a Wave 1/Fire magnet to allow my Wulfen and other threats to walk up the board for 2 turns.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Flipping those impulsors further into the enemy lines is crazy good. Ragnar’s consolidation aura is so strong.

I think I'd missed that Battlelust affects everything! Charging with vehicles and a blender unit (e.g. Wulfen or Ragnar) means the whole lot can keep flipping through the enemy lines.

You would just need to over-declare on the charges though since you can’t swipe at what you don’t charge. Risky, but I like where your heads at.

Yeah, you want a situation where the Impulsor is still eating the overwatch. Or it could be an Invictor or a Redemptor?

For context...white scars have a 2CP stratagem that is limited to 1 unit doing this.

 

***

One of your WS can consolidate D3+3", or D6+6" if every model in that unit has a move characteristic of at least 10"

***

 

It is game changing when used properly

 

*you can wrap using that movement and keep safe or tag shooting units deep in enemy lines

Edited March 20, 2020 by TiguriusX

[Zeke160]

So...would incursors be any good with the exploding 6’s, or do the paired blades effect not stack with our doctrine? Of course I suppose getting them to last until turn 3 would be an issues, as would the lack of special melee weapons.

[Hasuro]

Realy gonna miss his good boys..

Edited March 20, 2020 by Hasuro

[Vanger]

So...would incursors be any good with the exploding 6’s, or do the paired blades effect not stack with our doctrine? Of course I suppose getting them to last until turn 3 would be an issues, as would the lack of special melee weapons.

Both are "scores 1 additional Hit" so they stack. They seem to have learnt to watch out how they word their rules, so it doesn't require a FAQ on day 1.

[Karhedron]

So...would incursors be any good with the exploding 6’s, or do the paired blades effect not stack with our doctrine? Of course I suppose getting them to last until turn 3 would be an issues, as would the lack of special melee weapons.

Yes, I think they stack. As you point out, keeping them alive until T3 can be an issue. I see Incursors as an early game threat to put pressure on your opponent's DZ, nab Objectives or screen your other units (although Infiltrators are probably better in the latter role). This means they tend to die early. If they are still around on T3 then the game is probably going your way anyway.

[Dark Shepherd]

NZ pre orders up

 

No new psychic powers but maybe new warlord traits

[Jarl Caldersson]

As this thread was about speculation and we have moved onto actual release, this thread is now locked. Please refer to http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/362721-saga-of-the-beast-release/ for any new information.