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Jump pack units charging into ruins


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#1
Demoulius

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Hey all,

 

Last weekend a rule debate reared its ugly head. I wanted to charge a necron target standing on the 1st floor of a ruin and my opponent mentioned that the rules for doing that had changed and I had to charge per normal rules (so horizontal to move towards the ruin and then the 5 inches vertical of the floor) instead of measuring horizonal like it used to work.

 

He pointed to an faq on the website from some months ago, and I read it. But after reading the bit I was just....confused. The part he pointed towards was the 'MOVING WITH UNITS THAT CAN FLY IN THE CHARGE PHASE' part in the April 2019 update.

 

The update im talking about is this one: https://www.warhamme...ril_2019_en.pdf

 

They mention about the changes that you cant ignore buildings and terrain while making your charge move. Which im not doing. Im not ignoring anything with my movement so why he brought that up as a point made it even more confusing to me.

 

Am I misunderstanding this change or did they?


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#2
BluejayJunior

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With the change, you measure the actual distance, not the horizontal only distance. You measure the direct base-to-base distance and that is your charge. 


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#3
Demoulius

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Basicly there were 3 scenarios according to everyone there:

 

1: measure base to base. Which is what I thought I needed to do.

2: Measure horizontally, and then the vertical movement. Which is what he said I needed to do.

3: Others mentioned I could just measure the horizontal distance only and thats what I needed to roll.

 

In the end I rolled high enough to make the charge on the worst case scenario so it dident make a difference in the end, but the wording isent really clear in my opinion.


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#4
Slasher956

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Basically it can be taken as it says you effectively lose fly keyword when charging in the charge phase and follow the same rules as everyone else...

 

edit - some re-wording to help clarify what I was trying to say.

 

EDIT 2 - whistling.gif whistling.gif whistling.gif

 

basically  it can be taken that slasher doesnt use units with Fly keyword to charge enough and should go back and re-read the FAQ, Errats & rulebook before posting!


Edited by Slasher956, 10 September 2019 - 10:21 AM.

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#5
Demoulius

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Basically it says you lose fly keyword when charging and follow the same rules as everyone else...

I dont see you losing the fly keyword anywhere? huh.png


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#6
Leonaides

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And that is why when someone says 'basically...' I tend to question it even more.

You don't lose the fly keyword at all. You simply measure b-to-b.
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#7
Slasher956

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Basically it says you lose fly keyword when charging and follow the same rules as everyone else...

I dont see you losing the fly keyword anywhere? huh.png

 

sorry kinda missed an important word there.... should have put 'you effectively lose the fly keyword'

 

as in, during the charge phase (and only the charge phase) the keyword is not used

 

anyway I've re-written the original post to help explain my point.


Edited by Slasher956, 10 September 2019 - 07:53 AM.


#8
sfPanzer

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Basically it can be taken as it says you effectively lose fly keyword when charging in the charge phase and follow the same rules as everyone else...

 

edit - some re-wording to help clarify what I was trying to say.

 

Still not 100% correct though. Models with FLY are explicitly still allowed to move across other models during the charge phase according to the FAQ.

 

 

 

Models with FLY in the movement phase:

  • Move across models as if they weren't there
  • ignore vertical distance when moving across terrain

Models with FLY in the charge phase:

  • Move across models as if they weren't there

 

Means during the charge phase models with FLY don't get any shortcuts except for not having to move around other models.


Edited by sfPanzer, 10 September 2019 - 10:07 AM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#9
Slasher956

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:( I must be going off an older FAQ / getting confused with Erratas 

 

 

blush.png blush.png blush.png



#10
sfPanzer

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sad.png I must be going off an older FAQ / getting confused with Erratas 

 

 

blush.png blush.png blush.png

 

Here's the most recent one. ;)

 

 

And here's the relevant entry (emphasis by me):

 

 

Page 177 – Moving
Add the following sentence to the end of the
first paragraph:
‘No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved
over the edge of the battlefield.’
Change the second paragraph to read:
‘If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#11
Demoulius

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Ok so im still not sure....

 

What was the correct way for the assault move to go? Measure base to base or measurre horizontal and then vertical distance as they move up the building?


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#12
Dr_Ruminahui

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Horizontal then vertical - the way all models have to do unless the rules say otherwise, which they no longer do for units with FLY that charge.


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#13
sfPanzer

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What Ruminahui says. Units with FLY in the charge phase move the EXACT same way as other models except for being able to jump over other models.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#14
Demoulius

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Could someone please cite what part of the rules say that you effectivly no longer measure b2b but have to measure up, down and walk around things? Im not trying to be coy or anything.... Ive re-read the whole thing a few times now and it seems like they are contradicting themselves and their clarification seems to contradict the actual rulechange.

 

This is confusing me to all hell. Maybe because my native tongue isent English or something but this just whole bit just confuses me.


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#15
Slasher956

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Well what they have done is removed the exception to measuring verticle distance in the charge phase when measuring the path the model takes 

 

If you go off page 182 (charge phase)it just tells you to move.. so you have to go back to page 176 to find how you move.(which has been errated to say you models with the FLY keyword ignore vertical distance & all other models in the movement phase but only ignore none building models in the charge phase.)

 

edit - for what its worth my read of it is for moving you never measure B2B but rather just horizontally when moving fly keyword models (now in the movement phase only :P)


Edited by Slasher956, 11 September 2019 - 01:30 PM.


#16
Demoulius

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Ok so I have re-read the parts about moving and charging. Re-reading all the FAQ's that I can find. Im still not sure if I understand it fully but did read some things I dident know about and/or my local store just played differently.

 

What I think they mean is that they clarified you cant charge through walls, i.e. you have to move around those. Prior you couldnt charge through walls either but the wording was unclear and THATS what they are trying to clear up. There was an faq (which I assume is the one that they took down) which said that if a target was within 12 inches but you couldnt see it you could still charge it. Locally we charged through walls all the time and the staff seemed to think this was the proper ruling.

 

What confuses me the most though is that I cant find anywhere where it states (or stated) that flying units measured base to base distance differently so im not even sure how people got that information.... Was that also in the faq that they removed? I dont understand any of this anymore cry.gif


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#17
Slasher956

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before you could jump over a building in the charge phase, now you have to walk round the building.

 

the whole direct measure I think is a edition hangover!  I know for the first load of games (year I think??) I didnt have the rule book but having played older editions could play quite happily :P



#18
Demoulius

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Your models have to get within 1 inch in order to make their charge move. I cant find where it says you have to move horizontally and vertically instead of just meassuring b2b even though I see reference to it every now and again (like the faq I linked to in the OP)

 

In our store it seems we have played some things with house rules I guess. Whatever its because people dont know how something truly works or because of misunderstandings. But ive had to read like 3 FAQ's, the rulebook and a designers commentary and I still dont bloody know how some of these things work huh.png


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#19
Brother Casman

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Okay, here's how I understand it: for models that don't have the fly keyword, when they make a move into terrain (let's say ruins), they move horizontally to a ladder (for example), then climb the ladder. This applies if they're just moving or when they're charging an enemy higher up. Models with the fly keyword ignore the vertical distance when moving, you just measure the horizontal distance. The trouble is that when it comes to charges, people could put their models on a level immediately above or below the enemy and declare a zero-inch change, since models with fly got "free" vertical movement, even though their unit may have been physically 3 or more inches away from the enemy. To fix this, GW issued the errata to flying models - they now have to count horizontal and vertical movement when charging, just like models that don't fly. Hope that helps?
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#20
Demoulius

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Okay, here's how I understand it: for models that don't have the fly keyword, when they make a move into terrain (let's say ruins), they move horizontally to a ladder (for example), then climb the ladder. This applies if they're just moving or when they're charging an enemy higher up. Models with the fly keyword ignore the vertical distance when moving, you just measure the horizontal distance. The trouble is that when it comes to charges, people could put their models on a level immediately above or below the enemy and declare a zero-inch change, since models with fly got "free" vertical movement, even though their unit may have been physically 3 or more inches away from the enemy. To fix this, GW issued the errata to flying models - they now have to count horizontal and vertical movement when charging, just like models that don't fly. Hope that helps?

That seems plausible and would make sense I guess, but by the same token moving base to base (so not really ignoring veritcal distance but effectivly going straight through the middle) is how we play it locally. And I think thats where the confusion comes from.

 

So I guess the question is more: have we apparently been house ruling it this whole time or does it indeed work this way. Its an official GW hence why im not entirely sure why we would all be playing by different rules this entire time huh.png

 

On another note, none of the buildings have an actual ladder or entry point so by the same token normal infantry wouldnt even have been able to climb the building if they need something like a ladder or climable surface to get up on the building rolleyesclean.gif 


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#21
Brother Casman

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The measuring base-to-base part might be coming from the shooting rules, since that uses a direct measurement?

This may be something that you'll have to clear up with your group, since we're moving away from official rules questions...
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#22
sfPanzer

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Could someone please cite what part of the rules say that you effectivly no longer measure b2b but have to measure up, down and walk around things? Im not trying to be coy or anything.... Ive re-read the whole thing a few times now and it seems like they are contradicting themselves and their clarification seems to contradict the actual rulechange.

 

This is confusing me to all hell. Maybe because my native tongue isent English or something but this just whole bit just confuses me.

 

I've quoted the relevant FAQ entry already. You simply don't ignore terrain in the charge phase anymore so you have to move like any other model without FLY. There is no text passage that says "you don't measure b2b" because that's not a thing in the basic rules in the first place. There would have to be a rule that allows you to do so, not a rule that forbids you to do so.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#23
BluejayJunior

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There is nothing in the rules about needing a ladder to climb to higher floors. 

 

It is completely allowed to charge through walls of ruins and you don't need to be able to see a unit to charge it. INFANTRY units can move directly through ruins and their walls without having to go around. Infantry with jump packs still follow these rules. They don't ignore the terrain, but can still move through ruins because they are infantry. But they have to take into account any vertical distance they are charging in/through the ruins. 


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#24
Demoulius

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The measuring base-to-base part might be coming from the shooting rules, since that uses a direct measurement?

This may be something that you'll have to clear up with your group, since we're moving away from official rules questions...

Ive been playing since 3rd edition and a large portion of the local gaming group has as well (some from rogue trader) and it doesent help that the book doesent say how you measure distance in this edition ermm.gif it just says if something is within 12 inches you can decalre a charge to it. But under the 'move horizontal then vertical distances' model something could be within 12 inches and outside of your charge range..... Which is odd, to say the least. 

 

 

Could someone please cite what part of the rules say that you effectivly no longer measure b2b but have to measure up, down and walk around things? Im not trying to be coy or anything.... Ive re-read the whole thing a few times now and it seems like they are contradicting themselves and their clarification seems to contradict the actual rulechange.

 

This is confusing me to all hell. Maybe because my native tongue isent English or something but this just whole bit just confuses me.

 

I've quoted the relevant FAQ entry already. You simply don't ignore terrain in the charge phase anymore so you have to move like any other model without FLY. There is no text passage that says "you don't measure b2b" because that's not a thing in the basic rules in the first place. There would have to be a rule that allows you to do so, not a rule that forbids you to do so.

 

If you dont bloody measure base to base (pardon my french) then how do you meassure distance? Really? You have always meassure distances base to base or base to hull etc. How else would you meassure it?

 

There is nothing in the rules about needing a ladder to climb to higher floors. 

 

It is completely allowed to charge through walls of ruins and you don't need to be able to see a unit to charge it. INFANTRY units can move directly through ruins and their walls without having to go around. Infantry with jump packs still follow these rules. They don't ignore the terrain, but can still move through ruins because they are infantry. But they have to take into account any vertical distance they are charging in/through the ruins. 

you are correct on that. I had missed that part. My bad blush.png I skipped over it after I had already made my last reply.

 

I will take this up at my local games store. Im not a tourney player anyway so it only really matters how they and the local players work it out. Even if id prefer to know how to do it properly.... But way I see it the main rules book is written down terribly poorly. Alot of things are unclear, rules are all over the place. some exceptions or special cases are in completly random parts of the book.... And the large number of faq's/erratas that have changed portions of it havent helped either dry.png

 

Cheers for the help guys but im still completly lost on this as every anwser just gives me more questions huh.png


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#25
sfPanzer

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Could someone please cite what part of the rules say that you effectivly no longer measure b2b but have to measure up, down and walk around things? Im not trying to be coy or anything.... Ive re-read the whole thing a few times now and it seems like they are contradicting themselves and their clarification seems to contradict the actual rulechange.

 

This is confusing me to all hell. Maybe because my native tongue isent English or something but this just whole bit just confuses me.

 

I've quoted the relevant FAQ entry already. You simply don't ignore terrain in the charge phase anymore so you have to move like any other model without FLY. There is no text passage that says "you don't measure b2b" because that's not a thing in the basic rules in the first place. There would have to be a rule that allows you to do so, not a rule that forbids you to do so.

 

If you dont bloody measure base to base (pardon my french) then how do you meassure distance? Really? You have always meassure distances base to base or base to hull etc. How else would you meassure it?

 

 

 

You measure realistically as already said by others. The exact same way you'd measure with models that don't have FLY.

s9R1kHsl.png

 

 

Bonus panel (this was how it used to be before the FAQ/Errata and how it still works during the movement phase only):

Spoiler

Edited by sfPanzer, 11 September 2019 - 05:36 PM.

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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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