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Jump pack units charging into ruins


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36 replies to this topic

#26
Black Blow Fly

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My experience is buildings are extremely rare. Quite rare indeed.
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#27
sfPanzer

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Actual BUILDINGS, yes. Ruins and other vertically elevated terrain are extremely common though.


Edited by sfPanzer, 12 September 2019 - 01:22 PM.

  • Demoulius and Tyriks like this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#28
Demoulius

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Actual BUILDINGS, yes. Ruins and other vertically elevates terrain are extremely common though.

This :D

 

Its about ruins more then it is about buildings.

 

I understand what the consensus is about how the charge distance is calculated, thats not the point. I want to know where I can find this information for myself, which I cant currently. And my local store seems to play things differently like I said before, hence I want to know how they play things locally to prevent this discussion from pupping up again during games.

 

Thanks for the replies lads!


My blog: click me! Latest update 20th of December. 6th edition musings.
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a particular Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
 
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#29
sfPanzer

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I understand what the consensus is about how the charge distance is calculated, thats not the point. I want to know where I can find this information for myself, which I cant currently. And my local store seems to play things differently like I said before, hence I want to know how they play things locally to prevent this discussion from pupping up again during games.
 
Thanks for the replies lads!

 
I'd rather ask your group why they think it works differently? Nothing in the rulebook it says models can just walk through the air.
 
We only have this:

Moving

A model can be moved in any direction,
to a distance, in inches, equal to or less
than the Move characteristic on its
datasheet. No part of the model’s base
(or hull) can move further than this. It
cannot be moved through other models
or through terrain features such as walls,
but can be moved vertically in order to
climb or traverse any scenery.
No part of a model or its base can be set up or moved
over the edge of the battlefield.

If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.



Warhammer uses a permissive ruleset, not a restrictive ruleset. So as long as it doesn't allow models to move through the air (like it does for models with the FLY keyword by letting them ignoring models and vertical distance when moving across terrain) you can't do it.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#30
Slasher956

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I want to know where I can find this information for myself, which I cant currently. And my local store seems to play things differently like I said before, hence I want to know how they play things locally to prevent this discussion from pupping up again during games.

Thanks for the replies lads!

 

 

Its a permissive rule set... ie if it doesnt say you can do this, or this is how you do X then you cant do it. as said on page 170

 

 

These rules show you how to move,

use psychic powers, shoot, charge and fight with your models [/quote]
 
–  so if its not in the rulebook you cant do it (note the rulebook allows you to use the rules from the codexs pg 175)

 

So (as I said last page) the only way of knowing how to move the models is on page 177 of the rulebook ... which says measure horizontally then go vertically on the playing surface  unless you have the FLY keyword then in the movement phase you only measure horizontally

 

weapons are measured directly because you are seeing how far apart 2 models are and so is covered by the side bar on page 176.

 

So what people are doing when measuring in a straight line is measuring the distance between the starting position & end position of the model... which isnt covered by the rules.

 

hese rules show you how to move,


Edited by Slasher956, 12 September 2019 - 09:54 AM.


#31
Demoulius

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The rule book literally says in the charge phase:

 

'any of your units wihtin 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can make a charge move. You may not choose a unit that advanced or fell back this turn, nor one that that started the charge phase within 1"of an enemy.

 

Then you pick a target it, it overwatches if it can and then make charge move:

 

'After any overwatch has been resolved, roll 2d6. Each model in the charging unit can move up to this number of inches - this is charge distance this turn. The first model you move must finish within 1"of an enemy model from one of the target units. No models in the charging unit can move within 1"of an enemy unit that was not a target of its charge. '

 

It then explains failed charge and tells you to move to the next unit(s) until you are done making your charge units.

 

Now heres the thing. It just flat out tells you to pick a target within 12 inches and roll 2d6 for charge range. And that you can move that many inches with your charge move.

 

Ok so some things here. How do you decide if something is within 12 inches? The same way in which you meassure range for ranged weapons? Because that would cause a problem if you would move horizontal and then vertical because that distance is LONGER then just meassuring distance. Something could be within 12 inches and like 15-16 inches away if you have to move horizontal and then vertical.

 

It doesent outright tell you to move horizontal first and then vertical either. Thats how it works in the movement phase, sure. It doesent however say that you move in the same manner as you do in the movement phase. Infact it doesent say anything about how you move in the charge phase. it says you meassure range, roll 2d6 and if its within that range make a charge move. If it isent within the rolled distance on 2d6 its a failed charge.

 

Again, my local store tends to do things differently abit so il just ask them how to do things. But about the rulebook beeing clear.... It itsent. Its far from clear as far as im concerned.


My blog: click me! Latest update 20th of December. 6th edition musings.
Blood angel BFG Blog: click me

a particular Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
 
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#32
sfPanzer

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It doesn't allow your model to walk through air though. As long as the rules don't explicitly allow your model that, it moves across surfaces like in the movement phase.


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#33
Dr_Ruminahui

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You seem to be confusing the rules for measuring a charge and for moving as part of a charge.

 

Yes, the rules for determining if something is in charge range are the same as the general rules for determining what is in range - you measure from base to base.  So, you are within 12", you can charge.

 

The charge itself is a move, and follows the rules for movement.  The rules for movement are the rules for all movement, regardless of what phase it is in.  Such rules require that, unlike for range, the distance be measured across the gaming surface, taking into account movement up and down, and not directly from base to base.  


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 12 September 2019 - 02:52 PM.


#34
Demoulius

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I get thats what people do and for lack of clarification in the book itself it makes sense. But thats not what the book itself says. It doesent say that the movement in your charge phase follows the same as the same movement in the movement phase. (or if it does, im not seeing it) It doesent say anything at all about how you do this actual move. You meassure and then get to move the distance rolled on the 2d6. Nowhere does it make it clear or specifiy what rules you have to adhere by when charging and if you just follow the book on what is written in the charge you 'can' magicly move through air. So long as it is within the rolled 2D6 distance

 

Look we are talking in circles in this case. I understand what the consensus is ahout how it works. Thats not the point. I just dont see it in the book itself. It either leaves things out or leaves it open to interpretation.

 

And I have some bad experiences with players taking things that arent completly clear to very....interesting levels.

 

My store has played things differently to begin with and we got a local tourney coming up, and even though im going there for fun im not looking forward to rules disputes or shenanigans coming up. And im fairly sure the player I was talking about in the OP is going to be there.


My blog: click me! Latest update 20th of December. 6th edition musings.
Blood angel BFG Blog: click me

a particular Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey:
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
 
sml_gallery_64798_13809_5652.jpggallery_48988_15465_4294.png


#35
Tyriks

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As people have said, it is a permissive ruleset, not a restrictive one. Nothing allows you to move in a new fashion. Therefore, we have to treat movement the same as the movement rules we already have.
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#36
sfPanzer

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And I have some bad experiences with players taking things that arent completly clear to very....interesting levels.

 

My store has played things differently to begin with and we got a local tourney coming up, and even though im going there for fun im not looking forward to rules disputes or shenanigans coming up. And im fairly sure the player I was talking about in the OP is going to be there.

 

Honestly, it's pretty clear how it works and the vast majority of people play it like we explained to you. That you can't see why it works like that is on you and if you and your group do it differently then you are the ones with the "interesting levels" of interpretations, not the player you mentioned in the OP.

There's one place that explains how movement works in the rulebook. Use every time you have to move models in any phase until the rules tell you otherwise instead of waiting for GW to take your hand and repeat every single time you could possibly move a model in some way "models can only fly if they have the FLY keyword".

 

In any case it seems this discussion has run its course. We gave you all the sources, I even drew you pictures and we tried to explain it to you in our own words. There's nothing left to say, really. Either you accept it and move on or you keep trying to swim against the stream, but that way you'll find only rule-arguments with no end in sight.


If you still have any doubts, ask the TO how it gets handled there and then stick to their interpretation regardless of what you believe is right or not at least for the time of the tournament.


Edited by sfPanzer, 12 September 2019 - 09:52 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#37
Dam13n

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... and with that I'm ending this here before this escalates any further.

Kindly remember that this is a place for civilised discussion and you can either play nicely, or you don't get to play at all.


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Edited by Dam13n, 13 September 2019 - 07:23 AM.





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