Lexington Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) Looks like the fabled Black Templar Librarians won’t be hitting the battlefields after all.I’d honestly love to know why GW suddenly turned the BT’s simple, well-worn “burn the witch” tenant into the bizarre “they love psykers, it’s just that none have turned up for them in 10,000 years for some raisin” bit. With most twists to old background, you can usually see a model or a concept or a business need that’s being addressed, but in this case, they never even gave the Templars a Librarian to justify it. Note: This topic was split from a discussion in another thread. Also I know this can be a point of contention for some of us veteran players. Keep it civil. -Acebaur Moderati Edited September 10, 2019 by Acebaur Shinespider 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xealito Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) I’d honestly love to know why GW suddenly turned the BT’s simple, well-worn “burn the witch” tenant into the bizarre “they love psykers, it’s just that none have turned up for them in 10,000 years for some raisin” bit. With most twists to old background, you can usually see a model or a concept or a business need that’s being addressed, but in this case, they never even gave the Templars a Librarian to justify it. I don’t know how much lore has touched on that but from what I’ve read BT still don’t trust librarians. But I’m pretty sure the toning down on the whole burn the witch thing is because it creates a large plot hole in that they need psykers, navigators and astropaths, in order to function in the galaxy. Edited September 10, 2019 by xealito Volt and Shinespider 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Looks like the fabled Black Templar Librarians won’t be hitting the battlefields after all. I’d honestly love to know why GW suddenly turned the BT’s simple, well-worn “burn the witch” tenant into the bizarre “they love psykers, it’s just that none have turned up for them in 10,000 years for some raisin” bit. With most twists to old background, you can usually see a model or a concept or a business need that’s being addressed, but in this case, they never even gave the Templars a Librarian to justify it. I was thinking about this the other day when I was listening to Dan Annette's Voxcast. He was talking about the fact that as time goes on, they keep going back to little tidbits of information that are littered on the lore and expanding or answering them one by one. (This was in the context of big reveals like the fact that the Alpha Legion may, in fact, be covert loyalists.) Dan then said, that as things are explored and answered, you have to leave more breadcrumbs for the future, so that there's still tidbits to explore. The thing with BT lore on the lack of Librarians was that it was just stated as a fact, there never has been a why, as the Heresy series catches up to the formation of the chapter, and the treatment of the Fists Librarians has been clearly documented. (I.e. that the IF kept theirs, albeit locked up until they are needed.) My theory is that what all of this means is that the mystery of why we lack Librarians can remain a mystery, because the Heresy won't cover it. All that will happen is we depart on the Eternal Crusade with our book loving warlock friends, then by the time of TBA those pesky witches are all dead. Why? Who knows. But we know, because of TBA, that it wasn't the Howling, as that happens post-TBA, (unless of course Black Library cocks that up like they appear to have done with Maximus Thane.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link2edition Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly The Deathwatch RPG had a mechanic where, when exposed to chaos a Templar would not become corrupted, but would instead have to take willpower checks to avoid murdering any librarians in the party. bolvar, Kheotour, Volt and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly The Deathwatch RPG had a mechanic where, when exposed to chaos a Templar would not become corrupted, but would instead have to take willpower checks to avoid murdering any librarians in the party. Best mechanic ever. librisrouge, Crimson cowboy, Deadman Wade and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly I honestly don't think they ever will explain it. I think they deliberately created all of this obfuscation to avoid it. I think because they'll struggle to come up with one which will really, truly do it justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 My point is, abhor the witch puts us in a poor light if its combo'd with us having "lost" the ability but would otherwise be really appreciative of librarians. Are they trying to say we're angry we can't have them?`Just don't go there. Sometimes keeping things open for multiple explanations isn't to your benefit Sword Brother Adelard and librisrouge 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly I honestly don't think they ever will explain it. I think they deliberately created all of this obfuscation to avoid it. I think because they'll struggle to come up with one which will really, truly do it justice. They've already explained why we don't have libarians. "Their distrust of the warp extending to their own numbers, for no Black Templar would fight alongside a witch" -BT codex 4th ed We don't have them because we hate them, plain and simple. GW shoehorned this awful fluff(IMO) about the "lost librarius" to try to inject some mystery or something into our chapter. I personally think it was ill thought out and poorly executed. Kheotour, painting.for.my.sanity, Deadman Wade and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) Acebaur is right. No need to on a wild goose chase trying to find reasons. Its hate. We don't like them. For the last few years, all that "new" lore was a bloody mess. Reverence for astropaths, librarians might one day return, codex compliant numbers. No wonder no one liked Guy Haley books. I did like some bits of it, but some others were too much. Edited September 10, 2019 by Sete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 The TBA lore steps back from that somewhat. The Astropaths are 'tolerated' the hatred for witches clear. (I know it's set before the early Haley stuff, but I like to think it shows a progression in how the Chapter is treated.) I like the mystery, I prefer the notion that something unknowable occurred to move us from a state in the past to where we are now. From a practical point of view, it would have been artificial to leave it where it was, particularly as more was written about the Heresy, GW couldn't simply hide behind the 'lost in the depths of time' argument to explain things which early 40k fluff stated as absolutes. Instead they first made it into a mystery, which they could then come back to if they ever wished, and second they moved it into a more unknowable time, somewhere between the Heresy and TBA. I don't want that question answered however. As I cannot see it ever living up to its potential. It's like the second and eleventh Primarchs. No explanation can ever live up to the mystery of their disappearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Reinhard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 I know I keep droning on about it, but astropaths are not witches. All i need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link2edition Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 4th ed codex said no psykers in combat roles, but non-combat psykers were tolerable, as long as they are repentant of their mutant status, and help you kill other mutants."If the emperor had a podcast" actually did a good bit about this.Big E: "So what was your plan for your astropaths and navigators if you abhor mutants?"Helbrect: "We agreed to kill them last after all other mutants in the galaxy are dead. That's why they work for us." Sete 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 I know I keep droning on about it, but astropaths are not witches. All i need. Witch, mutant, neither is to be trusted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson cowboy Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Abhor the witch. You can't really square that with any other explanation without it becoming petty rather quickly The Deathwatch RPG had a mechanic where, when exposed to chaos a Templar would not become corrupted, but would instead have to take willpower checks to avoid murdering any librarians in the party.Best mechanic ever. I was thinking about this today actually since there has been a few posts of people wanting librarians is a chapter that can’t stand them Make the librarian stand next to a captain at all times as a meat shield and when he fails he is executed like a commissar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 In my own head cannon, the templars just hate witches. They make special exceptions for Astropaths since they’ve been ‘blessed’ by the Emperor, but otherwise steer clear. Hell, I go so far as assume they DO get libbys once in a while when a promising initiate turns out to be paychic, they just offer to ship them to the Imperial or Crimson Fists, Iron Champions, Subjugators or whichever other chapter of Dorn’s heritage is nearby, or maybe to the Deathwatch, instead of letting the librarian hang around donning the BT’s colours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) It is not a plot hole to hate the witch and the mutant and still need astropaths and navigators. Astropaths and Navigator don't just wander around on their own. They have their own massive staffs of retainers and servants (and in the Navigator's case, armies). Very few of those people would be actual witches or mutants. Imperial ships are massive, there is no reason whatsoever the non-mainline humans wouldn't be sequestered in a massive city sized cathedral of their own. It was always the players trying to be edgy saying 'oh yes, we'd beat and murder all witches and mutants' when very clearly they wouldn't. You can find someone or something repulsive and still do your job. It was that very same shallow thinking that led them to change the lore in the first place, because if you have the idiotic idea they'd murder their navigators instead of just finding them repulsive but necessary that doesn't make sense so they thought they had to change it. The original Templar Index said that they had repented of their sin of witchery and mutation, and very clearly that is simply part of the negotiation to get access to the insane wealth Space Marines can provide to the Astro Telepathica and Navigators in return. Edited September 10, 2019 by Marshal Rohr Acebaur 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 IIRC all this "love psykers, but somehow lost their librarians" nonsense started with 6th edition SM codex, the worst years of 40k both with lore and rules. Codices were full of poorly written lore, most BL books were terrible, and stupid rules made the game unplayable. So it was one of many failures, not the only one. I guess GW decided to just stick with that rather than retcon it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) In my own head cannon, the templars just hate witches. They make special exceptions for Astropaths since they’ve been ‘blessed’ by the Emperor, but otherwise steer clear. Hell, I go so far as assume they DO get libbys once in a while when a promising initiate turns out to be paychic, they just offer to ship them to the Imperial or Crimson Fists, Iron Champions, Subjugators or whichever other chapter of Dorn’s heritage is nearby, or maybe to the Deathwatch, instead of letting the librarian hang around donning the BT’s colours. AT FIRST - to believe in the emperor as a god and hate other psykers is possible .... Would be a nice thing to see the templar Psykers would become Grey Knights... thats why the small part of the inquisition (which know exactly the act of having more then 1000 Space Marines) accepte this part. Edited September 10, 2019 by Brother Tyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 IIRC all this "love psykers, but somehow lost their librarians" nonsense started with 6th edition SM codex, the worst years of 40k both with lore and rules. Codices were full of poorly written lore, most BL books were terrible, and stupid rules made the game unplayable. So it was one of many failures, not the only one. I guess GW decided to just stick with that rather than retcon it again. maybe the will change it again if they see what the community really wants. So the (very very) poorly thing that Templars are not over 1500 what Haley said in his blog in 2014.... Burn that fluff and change it GeDub...!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmapa Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 That Guy Haley book was a mistake, the numbers alone weren't supported by the codex that had just came out and we have never been less than "thousands" in any codex. Not sure who told Haley that we only had one ship and had less than a 1000 marines for the whole Chapter, it hasnt even been mention in any of the codexes released after. It was really weird and stupid and should be treated as the mistake it is. Speaking of Guy Haley and on a more positive note I think everyone should read his anthology of short stories "Crusaders of Dorn". There are some real gems in there, Glorious Tomb and that story of a Templar wondering if mercy is weakness are some of the best BL has published. Link2edition 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 Brusc is a great character. He deserved more page time. Link2edition 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medjugorje Posted September 10, 2019 Share Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) I have to say that Guy Haley is a demi-god what is about blood Angels. "Dante" is such a fantastic read - one of my favourite BL-books. I do not like the facts G.H. wrote about BT. We should hope "New GeDub" would change a few things... if we get this fantastic new rules - maybe we get fantastic fluff. Edited September 10, 2019 by Medjugorje Link2edition 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted September 11, 2019 Author Share Posted September 11, 2019 Heh, didn’t mean to make a whole topic about this - honestly, I’d half-hoped there was an explsinstion out there that I’d simply missed... IIRC all this "love psykers, but somehow lost their librarians" nonsense started with 6th edition SM codex You’re spot on for the timing, IIRC. I just don’t really get it, tho. As said, with most background changes, even the ones that cause uproar in the fan base, there tends to be a discernible reason for them. This was such an about-face for a big name Chapter, and one whose purpose I’ve never been able to puzzle out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted September 11, 2019 Share Posted September 11, 2019 (edited) Did 6th Edition come before 'The Eternal Crusader' book? Because the sealed Librarius (the location S opposed to the body of men) was mentioned in that as well. Edit: it seems 6th came out first, if the publication date in my ebook is correct At 2014. Edited September 11, 2019 by Brother Adelard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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