Character Deaths

[chapter master 454]

I don't agree with just making new primaris characters. Unless GW are intending to axe old marines. Just a quick broadside there to some people saying to bring in only primaris characters. No other reason to rubicon all the current ones otherwise.

(which at that point, why not just give all marines the stats boost, access to all the wargear cross over and the like. You can explain bolt guns as just being easier to make over Bolt Rifles).

 

Also, I agree with the legacy of characters being ok if they die. The concept of them becoming part of history isn't a problem and if you continue to play them then we can just say (because GW writing IS that bad) that this is an alternate timeline crossing over because of a warp storm. Boom, done. Again, not wanting to see deaths left and right, just want to see actual characters come about and do things, not being a datasheet!

[PeteySödes]

I think my main issue as to why it makes me uncomfortable is how it seems the Legends line is being handled by that single line "and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments". The game is being dictated more and more by the competitive scene and while I don't want to re-litigate the issue, it hampers narrative.

 

I feel like they painted themselves into this corner, 15 years ago special characters were "With your opponents permission" but now they are everywhere. This in addition to some of the more restrictive rules at places like Warhammer World where if it's painted one way, it can't be another. 

 

I'm probably extra sensitive here due to being a SW player but here's my issue. I play Company of the Great Wolf because Logan is my guy. Say they kill Logan, Rubignar becomes Great Wolf and now command the CotGW. Not only do i lose Logan but now my entire army has a new identity that I cant take to competitive events as is and narrative ones only if they don't care about it being a "modern setting".

 

Again, I know i'm vocal here because i feel like my army is on the chopping block. With any change its going to be messy but with how much time, money and sweat we put in I hope these decisions aren't made lightly.

[Gederas]

Imo some characters are actually worth killing while others actually have some narrative depth to them and shouldn't be axed. Azrael, Ezekiel, Lukas, Pedro, Dante, Grimaldus, Dante, Mephiston, Seth, Crowe, Shrike, Calgar, and Cassius have some interesting things going on or very important arcs (Dante) that cannot and should not be interfered with at all. They're the ones with some real value and meat to their characters. But others like Belial, Asmodai, Cato, Draigo, etc? Could be killed off to no real narrative loss. IMO on the chopping block I'd axe Asmodai and replace him with Sapphon, axe Draigo and put Crowe in his place (hell toss Primaris versions of Grey Knight units their way, god knows they need a buff), bump off He'stan and put Dak'ir in his place as the main Salamander character, kill Sicarius and replace him with Ventris, etc.

That's an interesting idea. But one quibble:

 

Replace He'stan with someone who's already dead? Because if you're referring to Hazon Dak'ir from the Salamanders novels, he's dead. Also: Dark'ir is a Librarian, He'stan is a Forgemaster (ie: a Techmarine). The former can't be the latter

 

Chaos characters and longer-lived xenos characters (Aeldari and Necrons come to mind) should largely be safe, but killing off one or two wouldn't be amiss.

You know what would be fun? Killing off Fabius Bile only to later on discover that he cracked the Primaris code and a primarised clone of himself shows up and takes his place.

I mean, it's canon that Fabius HAS been killed several times and has body back-up clones of himself that apparently he can transfer his soul into or something? Wouldn't be out of the question for this to happen...

 

 

I'll note that the Chaos bigwigs- well, and Necrons- are about the only characters that have actual excuses for character immortality. Literal divine (or infernal) intervention and techno-sorcerous resurrection explain why they're not going anywhere.

That only works for Daemons. Chaos Space Marines beyond the big four are still very much mortal, and even Abaddon should stay dead whenever he's put down. And really he should be put down because at this point he's really lost any sense of terror with how long he's been a bloody clown. His intimidation as a villain is entirely spent with even ADB not being able to salvage him from the memes. We really need a new Everchosen who is actually SCARY instead of Abaddon "fail to achieve anything meaningful in the history of his bloody character" the Despoiler. You could even start off a new Everchosen by them bumping off Abaddon after his favor trailing in the lackluster follow-up to the 13th Black Crusade.

No, it works for the mortals too.

 

Khârn was confirmed as being killed during the Horus Heresy, was impaled on the front of a Rhino iirc, and Khorne SPECIFICALLY resurrected Khârn. And Lucius.... Well, there's a reason why he's called Lucius THE ETERNAL. I mean, it's kind of a big plot point with him.

 

Also regarding your hot take on Abaddon:

 

I think my main issue as to why it makes me uncomfortable is how it seems the Legends line is being handled by that single line "and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments". The game is being dictated more and more by the competitive scene and while I don't want to re-litigate the issue, it hampers narrative.

 

I feel like they painted themselves into this corner, 15 years ago special characters were "With your opponents permission" but now they are everywhere. This in addition to some of the more restrictive rules at places like Warhammer World where if it's painted one way, it can't be another. 

 

I'm probably extra sensitive here due to being a SW player but here's my issue. I play Company of the Great Wolf because Logan is my guy. Say they kill Logan, Rubignar becomes Great Wolf and now command the CotGW. Not only do i lose Logan but now my entire army has a new identity that I cant take to competitive events as is and narrative ones only if they don't care about it being a "modern setting".

 

Again, I know i'm vocal here because i feel like my army is on the chopping block. With any change its going to be messy but with how much time, money and sweat we put in I hope these decisions aren't made lightly.

I mean it could be worse. You could be playing Grey Knights who actually seem like they're being geared up to be Squatted....

[Tyriks]

Yeah, killing Abaddon because of some memes would be absurd.

[Exilyth]

There's two extremes to killing characters: kiddy TVs 'no one dies and everything will be ok' and game of thrones 'oh hey that character introduced last page/scene? Well, guess what, they died!'.
Back in the day Wh40k (and GW as a whole) was proper grimdark and would lean towards the latter - nowadays it's more nobledark and leaning towards the former.

The problem with character deaths is (fan backlash aside) that giving everyone a heroic last stand marginalizes death - just as much as no death or an inglorious death would do.
And giving characters various forms of death only leads to more backlash due to someone feeling marginalized.

 

It would be nice if we'd see a move back towards the other end of the scale, but with the direction things are taking, that is rather improbable.

Seeing characters get retired to legend status on the other hand ... well, we will see.
 

I feel like they painted themselves into this corner, 15 years ago special characters were "With your opponents permission" but now they are everywhere.

 
So true - back in the day, you had your generic HQ A and generic HQ B and access to the armory (w/loads of wargear) to create your own character.
Commander (today: warlords) were supposed to be heros of renown who represented the players on the tabletop.
 
Then again, most HQs had only one metal model (w/one loadout) and most equipment was only available as metal bits from mail order only.
And then someone mathhammered that a certain chapter master was the smashiest and we've lost a lot of variety (and options) ever since.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Exilyth

[Triszin]

I am for character deaths. If they have a plastic model you can still use them, but in the lore they are gone. And they might not be in the book after 3 iterations.

 

 

I don't want them replaced by +1 replacement.

[Ratherdashing]

I don't think killing off characters should have an effect on whether they can be played, and as far as model ownership goes, making Calgar Primaris does the exact same thing to your Calgar model that killing him does...

 

I'm going to still attest that they could have characters die in the Rubicon without it feeling cheap. I know to some it seems like "those Primaris just taking one more thing away from me" but if anything, the safeness of the Rubicon just feels like more GW apologetic for "the Primaris are great and everyone loves them". There should be some degree of resistance and stigma to the Primaris, and it should be risky. Making it safe, making everyone approve of it, no questions asked, just feels like a marketing move at the expense of the story.

 

I may have sort of kicked this conversation off with a comment I made in the Space Wolf forum where I proposed Logan, my favorite character, die in the Rubicon. I knew it would be controversial but honestly I don't think it would be a dishonorable way for him to go. It just has to be framed right. Logan's achievements speak for themselves, and he's not characterized as a boastful or arrogant person. He doesn't need to die with his axe in a Greater Daemon. In my suggested narrative, he knew he would die on the operating table and was at peace because he was ready to pass the torch. The only reason he even underwent the Rubicon was because his followers would need to feel like they tried everything they could to save him from mortal wounds--he would let them try but was ready to go peacefully to meet his fathers.

 

Spoilers for Avengers Endgame:

Think about Tony Stark's death. If it were framed wrong, it could seem really lame--he died from snapping his fingers? Basically radiation poisoning? Dying, weak, on his back, from a self inflicted injury. But it worked in the story because Tony did not need to die in the heat of battle. In fact that would have been a sadder death for him--Tony really didn't like battle (he still had PTSD from his first big fight) and what he really wanted was to quit--but he never could because he knew the world needed him. That's why it was so important that Pepper told him she and his daughter, and the world, were okay without him and he could rest. So for him, dying on his back when the battle was already over was perfectly poignant and did not need the same heroes death that someone else might need. What makes good story depends on who the character is, what their journey has been, and how it is framed.

 

I'm not saying that Logan should be killed and I totally understand the concerns about Legends, even if it doesn't affect me or my local group at all. I'm just saying that it's possible to have a Rubicon death and have it work out as a positive end for the character.

[Kinstryfe]

Thinking about it more, I feel like they could avoid the perception that there's no risk by even killing off characters that are barely in the lore that don't even have models. Even a little blurb like "Even though they grudgingly create new Primaris Astartes in limited numbers, the *insert second founding Chapter that we know about from the lore. Let's say Mortifactors because they're fun.* no longer allow their brothers to attempt to cross the Rubicon Primaris, after losing their Chapter Master Mortifactor-Name and 7 of their Captains as they attempted to cross. The resulting lack of leadership has led to a significant increase in battle losses as they adjust to their new chain of command." It would at least acknowledge that things are dangerous in the setting instead of just stating it and doing nothing with it. Heck, make a running commentary across new codex releases of a particular Chapter with a new named Chapter Master every time they're mentioned...

[Red_Shift]

So for decades the chapter master of the Imperial Fists was Vladimir Pugh. He had a cool bit of backstory in that after loosing a lot of brothers in one disastrous action he had his taste buds excised. During the events of the sentinels of terra book, he was unceremoniously killed off and replaced with a chap called Vorn Hagen.

 

Which was cool. Characters should be killed off. It's a violent setting. One of the appeals of the Lysander character is that he evolved between codexes from a sergeant, to a captain, to first captain. If they choose to kill him off and bring another character to the fore then I'm all for it.

 

Ragnar is a good example. His schtick was that he was young, eager and talented. However the decades have rolled by and the setting has advanced a ways. Shouldn't he be replacing Logan or at least becoming a more veteran, seasoned warrior? A primaris replacement seems likely to still be young Ragnar which doesn't make sense.

[Closet Skeleton]

Vladimir Pugh was killed off too early in the timeline to make sense though. The Raven Guard Chapter master was killed off in campaign that moved the story forwards while Pugh was in charge for decades and then retconned into being dead for 50 years.

 

I'm probably extra sensitive here due to being a SW player but here's my issue. I play Company of the Great Wolf because Logan is my guy. Say they kill Logan, Rubignar becomes Great Wolf and now command the CotGW. Not only do i lose Logan but now my entire army has a new identity that I cant take to competitive events as is and narrative ones only if they don't care about it being a "modern setting".

 

 

People take blatantly non-canon converted armies to competitive events and Tycho has never been banned from narrative events.

[Red_Shift]

Tychos death was epic. It really portrayed the death company well. He's butchering orks left right and centre and seeing traitors at the emperor's palace. Spot on.

[Ishagu]

Maybe some characters should die? I don't know.

 

I don't want to see any recent models get snuffed out. Maybe some older models who won't be getting updated could, but not because they failed the Rubicon - that is a very pitiful way to sniff out a legendary character.

 

I'd love to see Lucius the Eternal get killed, he just needs to be put down by someone who feels no satisfaction or accomplishment in ending his life to break the curse, right?

Some of the older Chaos, Tau and Eldar heroes should all be on the "chopping block" if loyalists are.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Ishagu

[Ficinus]

People still buy and use Ferrus Manus in 30k even though he died in, like, the third battle of the Heresy.

[Morovir]

Thinking about it more, I feel like they could avoid the perception that there's no risk by even killing off characters that are barely in the lore that don't even have models. Even a little blurb like "Even though they grudgingly create new Primaris Astartes in limited numbers, the *insert second founding Chapter that we know about from the lore. Let's say Mortifactors because they're fun.* no longer allow their brothers to attempt to cross the Rubicon Primaris, after losing their Chapter Master Mortifactor-Name and 7 of their Captains as they attempted to cross. The resulting lack of leadership has led to a significant increase in battle losses as they adjust to their new chain of command." It would at least acknowledge that things are dangerous in the setting instead of just stating it and doing nothing with it. Heck, make a running commentary across new codex releases of a particular Chapter with a new named Chapter Master every time they're mentioned...

 

I think that would just be kicking the Mortifactors while they're down at this point...

 

Chapter Master Magyar and most of the chapter command are killed by an Eldar Swordwind attacking their fortress monastery during the events of Deathwatch: Swordwind.

 

I do understand the point you're making, it's just that you chose a rather unfortunate chapter as your example.

[Panzer]

Lucius has become rather boring to be fair. I wouldn't mind seeing him getting replaced. His possessing stick is cool but can be circumvented by some guys bombing him from far away without even knowing he was there or similar and apart from that he has not much going for him.

 

 

Many T'au characters kinda circumvent their whole short lifespan thing in multiple ways though.

Shadowsun for example is conserved in cryostasis and is only active for really big battles. Same goes for Kai and used to be the case for Farsight.

Farsight has the sword that absorbs lifespan from victims and gives it to him (begs the question whether he still needs it after killing Orks though).

The rest of his 8 friends are either AI, just take on the name and are actually successors, get kept alive by nanobots, etc etc.

So unless they fall in battle there's no reason why they shouldn't be still around.

 

Darkstrider and co should be dead dead though, I agree. And tank commanders like Longstrike in general should be just an archetype available for all sub-factions who have such kind of things.

[Knight of the Raven]

The writing on my wall since Games Workshop changed its tune from a setting to an evolving story about all things Warhammer 40,000 is clear; they're shooting for the stars, specifically two stars known as the DC and Marvel franchises. As such, I expect death to be taken as 'seriously' as there. And that's before my belief that the Design Studio is too enamored with their precious little darlings to do anything bad to them, much less off them for good.

A good point was brought up about death, that it could be made into a fitting end to a character's story. But 'bowing out and letting the curtain fall' just isn't in the blood of franchises, from what I've seen. Why, yes, I am talking about you Batman. Ready to outstay your welcome one more century? Of course you are!

I consider the Rubicon Primaris a cheeky transition. Thirty years from now, people will remember there were non-Primaris Calgar, Dante and Logan Grimnar kicking around about as much as people remember Tigurius was a half-eldar crime against nature now.
 

I'd love to see Lucius the Eternal get killed, he just needs to be put down by someone who feels no satisfaction or accomplishment in ending his life to break the curse, right?

That's the rule of Lucius' immortality curse, yes... as written by Slaanesh himself, probably for his own amusement. I wouldn't expect a Chaos God to follow their own rules if doing so deprived them of their favorite toy in the mortal realms, if I were you.

[chapter master 454]

 

I'd love to see Lucius the Eternal get killed, he just needs to be put down by someone who feels no satisfaction or accomplishment in ending his life to break the curse, right?

That's the rule of Lucius' immortality curse, yes... as written by Slaanesh himself, probably for his own amusement. I wouldn't expect a Chaos God to follow their own rules if doing so deprived them of their favorite toy in the mortal realms, if I were you.

 

I found this odd because there is a few loopholes. First, what if lucius was killed in an exterminatus? Who gets turned?

Then another classic is if some random guardsmen just goes pineapple surprise and takes him down in a grenade embrace.

 

The other question I have is if someone figures out whats going on and then commits suicide, who gets lucius now?

 

Or gets killed by a bombing run which then the crew of the craft is then shot down and no survivors.

 

He really isn't that eternal.

[Ishagu]

I just really dislike the character. If anyone should go down it it's him, especially with a name like that lol.

[Marshal Loss]

I'd be totally down for killing Lucius off permanently and replacing him with Eidolon, guy is a certified badass. Probably best to avoid yet another surviving Heresy-era First Captain doing the rounds though.

 

Doubt Phil Kelly would ever kill off Lucius even though he's turned into a bit of a joke, I get the distinct impression he's quite proud of him

[Panzer]

Kelly is proud on too many of his terrible ideas. ^^

[DeadFingers]

If Lucius has to have an "end", that end is becoming a pit fighter in the depths of Commorragh for the rest of eternity.

[Panzer]

I doubt he'd ever stay there for long. Nobody would want to fight him because it would mean certain death one way or another and you don't send your slave fighters against him because they either die or win and become him which is basically the same as losing the fight, or if the winner now owns him it's a downgrade since you still lost the superior fighter.

[Tyriks]

Isn't the point of him becoming the person that killed him so he improves? I assumed he was keeping the skills of whoever became him and was therefore continuing to improve throughout the process. Is that not the case?

[Marshal Reinhard]

How'd we end up here anyway? I think the closest he'll ever get to a death is GW just not bothering and forgetting about him eventually

[Panzer]

Isn't the point of him becoming the person that killed him so he improves? I assumed he was keeping the skills of whoever became him and was therefore continuing to improve throughout the process. Is that not the case?

 

Maybe. Or maybe the point was just not getting killed for good. Anyway, for a master swordsman buffed by a chaos god he sure dies a lot in duels. :P