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IA: Wings of Dawn - LASC 2019

Successor Chapter WIP LASC19

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#76
Berzul

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I suspected as much, you couldn't really get this much info into one piece if you weren't writing it for yourself. That much is fair enough in every way.

 

I imagine it happens to most people. After all, despite this being a solid community, we all still live on our own, each one of us. So, you make your backstory for your chapter for yourself, first and foremost. These are your guys, and in writting who they are, you are making a story for yourself to enjoy as you play them later. It's awesome to share it, but it is still for you, first, and for the rest second.

 

 

 

However, I think my criticism still stands, and if you're posting something in a public forum, you've got to accept some level of community-level standardization in a lot of ways. Now, I'm not just being critical, I'm trying to be constructive. I'm not actually telling you what you need to do to get something or go somewhere. More what I'm suggesting is that if you want to make an IA using this particular format that has a lot of community acceptance, which has been taken from the officially released IA's.

 

I never tried to even imply that your criticism did not stand, still. I am not defending the text as it is. I am explaining why the text is as it is, and, in fact, I think your suggestions are pretty freaking good, and make a lot of sense.

 

When I first wrote this IA I had no frame of reference really. I wrote it on my own, for myself, and only later did I find the LASC 2019, which I took as an opportunity to polish y writting and keep working the chapter. But then, at the same time, there was little standarized frame of reference, as each thread and post was actually quite different and the suggested frameworks on the pinned post of this subforum are also quite different between them. 

 

 

 

This is only if you want to and if you're happy with it I've no criticism of that and that's awesome and can disregard what I've put here anyway. However, for my money I'd still say it'd be beneficial to construct an IA from this, and keep this as the lore explosion for these guys as it is. It'll just allow people to have an easier time to read about your chapter.

 

Again, I am both happy with how the text is (in the sense that, long though the text may be still, I have already done all the trimming down I am comfortable with doing, and I think that cutting more text would be an excercise based just around reducing the length of the IA, but not of improving the quality of the lore presented, and so, if it is just about making it shorter, then that won't necessarily make it better).

 

At the same time, again, I agree with you and your suggestions, that the way it is presented causes a high obstacle to appear. The information would be better presented with a more comprehensive summary at the start, and maybe even with a switching of the information. Starting with how the chapter is organized, what their culture is, and how they fight, before jumping in to the backstory of how they got this way. Instead of starting by explaining all the history of the chapter, before getting into who they are as of today and why they might be an interesting chapter.

 

People most likely would prefer to know how the chapter works, first. Then, if they find it an interesting chapter, they might want to know what the story behind it is. Same as when you explain chapters to people that are outside of the game, I guess. If I wanted to go and explain to someone who the Dark Angels are, I'd probably start with how they are medieval knights in space, that they wear green armor, and robes, and how they have secrets and hide a 10.000 year old shame. That is more gipping than the backstory of the chapter, which can serve to enhance the experience of understanding them; but is not essential to getting a sence of who they are and how they play.

 

 

 

In any case, it's heartening to see an extensive amount of work being put into a DIY chapter and I mean that sincerely. I just think you're not putting your best as good of a foot forward in terms of showing the chapter off to the community as you could be, that's all.

 

Thank you. And, yeah, probably.

 

 

 

If I get the time, I'll come back and see if I can offer up my two cents on the work itself.

 

I seriously hope you do! But, then again, considering the points presented, it would be absolutely understandable if you don't get around to it sweat.gif 

 

If you happen to have any comments, I'd be happy to read them. If not, just the suggestions you have already given me are absolutely wonderful and a great help in improving the writting. Thank you!


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"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

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#77
Brother Lunkhead

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Hail Brother Berzul,

 

It's good to see you and your Wings of Dawn again. Thanks for the pics. Your army looks fairly fantasticthumbsup.gif I think Azrael would be proud of this successor chapter, although he would probably not be inclined to say so, given his demeanor verymad.gif teehee.gif

 

Since you don't have any new content (no rush Brother) to comment on, I'll direct my thoughts at Brother Grey's critique and comment on IA development in general. I'll just reference Brother Grey's original comments as all else expands from there.

 

Posted 12 December 2019 - 03:48 PM

 

Holy mackerel this is a huge, huge amount of text.

 

I suggested in another thread yesterday that it might be beneficial to split it up. Draw off what you need to make the IA (which is in essence a summary) in order to hook people with your chapter, and then present all the other information in a different 'tabula'. In this manner it allows people to gain an interest and an investment in your chapter and from there they can dig into the rest of your literature on them.

 

This is a lot, it's huge, utterly huge. Being completely honest, I wouldn't even start reading it as a layman. It's such a huge investment in time to try and get through it all with no promise of quality or interest. Speaking from the perspective of marketing your own brand, you need a narrative hook to grab people, which is what the IA is for.

 

Like I suggested in the other thread, make sure there's nothing you can't trim down. Anything that doesn't drive the piece forward should be cut. To paraphrase the quote I put forward earlier, "It's finished not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

 

If I was going to suggest an ideal length for an IA I'd be looking at the Commissar Molotov's Castigators as a guide. Honestly I'd recommend the Castigators as essential reading to anyone attempting an IA, whether it's the first or twenty-first attempt.

 

I'll try and get back later and actually attack the body of work itself, even if only in parts.

 

Firstly, let me just say that I don't want anyone to be under the misconception that I am attacking or criticizing Brother Grey or his critique in any way. In fact I think he is spot on with this and his later musings and observations. I just think that at this stage of development you should be allowed plenty of room for flexibility. 

 

There is definitely a lot of text to go througheek.gif and many Fraters might be inclined not to read it at this point simply due to the length. But, at this point I don't think you should be too concerned with that. Until you get closer to your final draft, it should be as long or as short as you want it to be. If you want to put your whole story out for the community to see and critique (as I think you want) and as long as there are a few of us out there who are willing to roll up our sleeves and take a critical look at your work and comment, then I think you are ok. By putting a lot of story content out for all to see, it allows you to edit as you go along and strengthen your whole narrative as you move towards your final draft. 

 

Now, as you get closer to your final draft, that's where Brother Grey's points really kick in. At that time you should really take heed to what he has to say, and you can't do much better than using Commissar Molotov's Castigators IA as a measuring stick. Ultimately though, it's your chapter and you should first shape it into a format that pleases you, but for readability by the greater community, Brother Grey's advise stands on solid groundyes.gif

 

I'm looking forward to seeing more from you.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 15 December 2019 - 07:36 PM.

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#78
Berzul

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Hey everyone!

 

I have been working a lot on the chapter, as of late. Polishing some stuff, reviewing a few bits and pieces, and working on structure for the text. I have expanded some parts I felt were lacking, and added others I felt would be good to add.

 

Mostly, I've been trying to set myself up, mentally, to both do a whole review of the entire 21 pages of lore I have written so far, as well as to then use this review to write a chapter brief, to start with. Following the advice, the idea is to present a much more condensed text that gives a big impression on what the chapter is about.

That way, if anyone wants to read just that, they can still get a sense of who the Wings of Dawn are, but if they like, they can read on and get much more detail out of it.

 

I hope to post this, soon. Like, in the next couple of weeks.


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#79
Bjorn Firewalker

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Good luck with your plans. May you be free of Writer's Block.

By the way, will the Chapter survive to fight in the Indomitus Crusade, and receive Primaris Marine reinforcements? Or will it reject the Primaris as "perversion of our father's genetic gifts to his sons"?
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Reasons to use the Steel Crusaders ('Codex: Space Marines' supplement) or the Iron-hearted Angels ('Codex: Blood Angels' supplement): Because you think giving Sternguard Veterans a heavy bolter wtih special issue HEAVY BOLTER ammunition is ALMOST as much fun as shoehorning an Earthshaker cannon into a Land Raider.

#80
jbaeza94

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You can try what im plannin. First Post will be brief with some accolades and information, with links to other posts that really expand on everything. 

 

either way, welcome back haha. i gotta get back to work on mine as well


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#81
Berzul

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@jbaeza94 , I might make a new thread, to follow such a structure, indeed.

@Bjorn Firewalker , I am still trying to decide on it. In my mind, the Wings of Dawn do not and would not reject Primaris. In fact, I wrote an excusw to fill two companies worth of Primaris. But HOW? And will it be a simple matter? Not sure yet
"Fiat lux!"
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#82
jbaeza94

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They can be part of the awoken primaris rather than indoctrinated or ascended. It all depends on how far along in the time line you are. For example, I'm pushing my timeline as far forward as possible to allow a roughly half half mix, with most being indoctrinated.

However, for your case, after huge losses, maybe even damage to the ability for the chapter to produce new marines, the awoken arrive to reinforce, 2 whole companies worth, while the chapter repairs its ability to produce space marines again. Or something like that. This will put you in the early stages of primaris and give you a reason for a large swell of primaris suddenly.

Alternatively, place it later in the timeline, and as of now, including the awoken that arrived, enough primaris have been created to make 2 companies worth


Fyi, awoken are cawl marines, indoctrinated are in house created, and ascended are rubicon marines, per the sm codex

Edited by jbaeza94, 03 February 2020 - 11:07 PM.

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#83
Berzul

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They can be part of the awoken primaris rather than indoctrinated or ascended. It all depends on how far along in the time line you are. For example, I'm pushing my timeline as far forward as possible to allow a roughly half half mix, with most being indoctrinated.

However, for your case, after huge losses, maybe even damage to the ability for the chapter to produce new marines, the awoken arrive to reinforce, 2 whole companies worth, while the chapter repairs its ability to produce space marines again. Or something like that. This will put you in the early stages of primaris and give you a reason for a large swell of primaris suddenly.

Alternatively, place it later in the timeline, and as of now, including the awoken that arrived, enough primaris have been created to make 2 companies worth


Fyi, awoken are cawl marines, indoctrinated are in house created, and ascended are rubicon marines, per the sm codex

 

Well, I am thinking that there would be a good number of awoken ones, at first, due to the proximity of the chapter to Ultramar and the adherence of the chapter to the codex. Their loyalty to standard imperium rule, and their lack of a shameful secret that would harbor distrust, would make them welcoming to the first waves of reinforcements. But, to an extent.

 

Then, as the years pass, they would start to suffer their own internal schism due to the differences with the Primaris marines. This, not due to secrets, but due to cultural superstition.

 

I have been working on some text to address chaplains in the chapter. They way the distinction between regular chaplains and interrogators in this chapter works, is that the Reclusiam is divided into two strata or levels. Chaplains are sent to regular companies and attached to them, but on a second level there are the arch chaplains, under the direct control of the master of sanctity. Unlike the dark angels, these guys are not more knowledgeable of any chapter secrets than any other battle brother; but what they are is close students of the past of the chapter and the fate of the Lightkeepers.

 

The whole thing with this chapter is that, it was once founded as one chapter, that was meant to die, but survived. The survivors decided to nominally call their chapter as dead, and took on a new name. They were founded again, and provided with reinforcements, at the end of M37, becoming the current Wings of Dawn. This is a story every battle brother knows. The deal is that their death in their previous incarnation was meant to bring about the death of the great evil that sprung out from their system. By surviving, they (rightly) fear now that this evil survived as well.

 

So, chaplains are spiritual leaders of the chapter that is, and arch chaplains are keepers of the traditions and knowledge of the chapter that was. They seek to preserve a fear of doom that should never abandon the chapter, lest they forget their sworn duty to keep watch for signs of its lingering power. They also exist to keep the stories alive of what failings might have been committed by the Lightkeepers chapter, by going against fate and surviving against the evil they had to fight.

 

So, Primaris, in a way, represent a new cycle of the same problem. They bring with them new blood, that might better distance the chapter from its past. And, some might rejoice in the idea, but others might fear the notion of the battle brothers forgetting more and more of the real flaw that lies within them as a whole, as this could lead them to weakness, and to the return of the doom itself.

 

I am thinking of having the chapter command struggle with this. First, by having a need to welcome the awoken, but with the Reclusiam and the Master of Sanctity going against the notion. Then, with the problem being made all the more serious by the disappearance of the fourth and fifth companies, as it presents an urgent need to replenish their own ranks, but with the very same situation presenting a chance for indoctrinated and ascended battle brothers to assume a more prominent role in the chapter as a whole.


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"Fiat lux!"
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#84
Brother Lunkhead

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All reasoned out very nicely Brother. Good jobthumbsup.gif


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#85
Berzul

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Thank you, Brother Lunkhead.

 

I am hoping the induction of the Primaris Marines will give me a good opportunity to play out the paradoxes and cultural contradictions of the chapter.

 

My goal is to try to convey the conflicting ideas that arise from a group of people that survive fate, but have noone to explain to them how, or if that is even ok. If fate should have been followed, or breaking from it is correct. And also how this becomes more muddled up, when the group believes their continued existence dooms them to the revival of their own arch nemesis, but at the same time, the true survivors from the previous chapter are indeed (by this point in time) mostly dead (with some surviving in dreadnoughts). I want to show how conflicting it must be to both believe your second founding cuts you off from your destiny, but at the same time your own escape ties you back to it, and how the philosophy of the chapter cannot make up its dogma on whether the chapter should move on from their past entirely or cling to it.

 

Primaris Marines present me an opportunity to address all of these contradictions and cultural paradoxes. I just hope I can manage to do it well enough so that it can be seen and felt on the text.


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#86
Berzul

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Still working on this. I haven't forgotten.

 

It's just been hard to find the time, as I've had a lot of problems lately with my daughter getting sick (nothing serious, just your average cold), which has put a strain on my ability to find time to deal with work, and then save time to write.

 

I am trying to make up a summary of the lore I have written so far, so as to comply with a mold for the index that is better suited for casual users in the forum. I have decided to split this into the following topics (which I hope will encapsulate the chapter well):

 

ORIGINS OF THE CHAPTER

 

CHAPTER HOME-WORLD

 

CULTURE AND TRADITIONS

 

BATTLEFIELD DOCTRINES

 

ORGANIZATION

 

 

My idea is to describe each part in 500 words or less. First, why and how the chapter was made, then what Alcides as a planet is all about. Then I plan to explain the whole mess with hoe the chapter came to be, in terms of how this affects their own self image, and their purpose as a chapter, which in turn affects how they sustain themselves over time culturally. Next I will just go over their methods of war, briefly. Finally, I'll sum up their chapter organization, and the small deviations they have from the codex.

 

 

So far, the only part I have managed to write is the first one. A first draft, at least.

 

Here is the text for it:

Hidden Content


Edited by Berzul, 12 February 2020 - 11:40 PM.

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- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

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#87
Messor

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Solid introduction, Berzul. Sets expectations for the remaining sections nicely, and provides intrigue to keep the reader hooked. I noted a small typo in the second to last sentence; "themselves been born again". 


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The Liber; it's like a Biscopea for DIYs!

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#88
Berzul

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Solid introduction, Berzul. Sets expectations for the remaining sections nicely, and provides intrigue to keep the reader hooked. I noted a small typo in the second to last sentence; "themselves been born again". 

Thanks! Both on your encouragement, and your observations. I am incredibly excited that this introduction can cause a reader to become interested in reading further. Thank you, very much.

 

I have in fact polished the text a bit. I have a habit of using sentences that go on for too long, and that start reading with too much flair. I am constantly having to cut myself from going on and on. So, I went back and I trimmed this down a bit, to make sure it reads well. Just, small tweaks, nothing big.

 

I'm moving on to writing about the homeworld now.


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"Fiat lux!"
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#89
jbaeza94

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One thing that has helped my writing in both professional and recreational settings is text to speech. Many free online ones. Sometimes, listening to it helps you out with flow and pick up typos

Either way, great work as always brother!
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#90
Berzul

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Thank you.

 

I will abstain from posting the edits, until I have finished the whole text for the entire part of the IA. So as to not spam here with it. But, once I do, I'll make sure to point out the fact that the text WAS modified from this first draft.

 

Lets keep going with chapter two, then.... the world of Alcides.


"Fiat lux!"
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#91
Brother Lunkhead

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Your first draft is mostly solid. The only issue I have is with the first paragraph:

 

Hidden Content

 

Your prose is very solid, but the content is vague and as such detracts from the rest of the content. I think you would be better off editing this out and starting with the second paragraph, which works quite well as an introduction.


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