Be that as it may, now do we compensate now? I used to try the shooty method when assault failed me but I don’t think that’s the case now. My Daemon Engines list hit some pot holes but I like to think we have some tricks still without going to Daemons.
I think we have to work twofold. On one hand we have to render their Dakka useless, ie running lots and lots of T8 with that Alpha Legion trait of -1 to hit. On the other hand, we need weapons with damage 2. That way, as soon as we reach their lines, they will die.
There is simply no way to deal with 2 wounds and armor 2+ (Primaris in cover) if you´re relying on damage 1 weapons. You need 36 Bolter shots on average to kill one Primaris in cover.
+++ T8 and harder hitting. I completely agree, but I'll go further and say if it's cheap enough, T5 infantry. I've been playing a ton of games with my Ultramarines and I'll tell you something they are phenomenal about: spamming boat loads of S4 AP-1 to AP -3 weaponry.
+++ I did a Battle Report on my blog of my Ultra's VS. Death Guard. It was absolutely shocking to me how T5 caused me issues.
+++ On the note of T8.... try not to laugh but I've been considering..... 3 Vindicators. (Perhaps with Noctlith Crown and Psyker support. But it might be better with Thousand Sons.... or no Noctlith and a Dark Apostle with the 5+ invuln litany)
After over 20 years of Chaos my Iron Warriors are finally gathering dust on the shelves. The breaking point has been Codex Space Marines.
I don't think polishing a turd is possible. Codex Space Marines has too many tools and too many redundancies and too many *good* things that Chaos Space Marines, without going an incredibly lacklustre, janky lists we just have no chance. With those lists that do have a chance are just not Chaos Space Marines. So no.
+++ I hear you. But this turd has been tied around my proverbial neck a long time, and after 3rd it's had a certain smell to it that won't go away. I just really like to think there's something here to make it competitive while waiting for.... dare I suggest.... the Campaign that fixes all? (Ducks the incoming tomatoes)
The concept I'm currently trialing out are Lord Discordants - 2 minimum in a soulforged pack as flawless host. The damage potential on them is absolutely stupid - one is the warlord with Ultimate Confidence for super exploding 5s with the Intoxicating Elixar, the other has the warlord trait to increase the movement with field commander rounded out with a winged prince with the Flawless Cloak for a 9" re-roll bubble on them all with a pair of maulers backed up by a few squads of cultists and marines and a world eaters battalion with 2 lots of zerkers in rhinos with an exalted champion with Brass Collar and Khârn plus 6 bikes. Combat potential is unreal, trick is getting it all into the lines to do some damage, The World Eaters do surprisingly well tbh and Khârn mangles whatever he touches, be that the enemy or other zerkers lol.
+++ I have played tournies with a similar concept. It just falls really flat against a few list types. Knights really gave me problems. You're making a list that's not going to shoot much at all, so you're relying purely on CC to get rid of hard targets and (aside from Oblits and Chaincannons) I found it just... very, very hard to clear enough Knights before getting pounded into the ground with Daemon Engines in our codex.
The other issue is screens. Really good screening armies absorb that type of impact well. Without Chain cannons, or something similar (bikes/termie Cacaphony) you'll find it hard to apply the pressure early.
Finally the big issue I ran into that list was non-interactive match ups: Eldar Airshow was horrible (and incredibly boring) and so is a map with ruins. Aside from Berzerkers, (which will get targeted very early) the opponent just has to stand on a floor and you're stuck staring up at them all game. (It's a really silly mechanism I'd like to see fixed in 9th ed or an update of some sort).
The other one is a bit more out there into the dirty territory of soup (But done in a way to squeeze into ITC faction restrictions) consisting of a battalion of Slaaneshi Black Legion (of all the actual traitors they have the most versatility imo given the likely impending nerf to Alpha Legion) including 6 bikes a sorcerer on a steed of slaanesh and a prince, a flawless host supreme command with 3 disco lords and as many goodies as possible (Ultimate confidence, Intoxicating Elixar, Field Commander and either flawless cloak or mechatendrites) and a battalion of Slaanesh daemons with 50 daemonettes; 1x30 2x10 a rapturesss a herald on a steed and syll'esske with a few points left to dot here and there as needed.
Having tried this latter list last night the one take away from it is, the speed is breathtaking. The disco lords are quick, souldforged disco lords are very quick and getting the locus benefit from the herald means they're greased lightning even without Warp Time. Depending on deployment map and where things are dropped, they're easily capable of hitting combat turn one and what they hit will die. Playing against Blood Angels yesterday, the 5 Chainglaive attacks exploded into a further 15 (3 for Ultimate Confidence, 1 for DttFE and one for the Slaanesh locus) between that and the rest 2 impulsors died even with their 4++ which kicked off a further 2 D3 mortal wounds for spirit thief. If you can have the prince and Syll'esske keep pace with them to buff hits and wounds you won't go far wrong because this army will be across the board in the blink of an eye and there's enough nastyness in there to mince screening. I may try and trim down the daemonettes to include something harder hitting like a Scorpius. Bit of fine tuning and I think it'll be a decent list. Needs a lot of practicing though, very finesse type.
+++ I'm glad you had success with it. It is a good match up for that kind of list though too. It gives me hope that I could revisit my 3 Disco Lord list and have some success with it.
My personal issue is I like characters too much. The 3 Disco's cost a lot. I really, really like the Venom Crawlers but if I include them I have no points for other potent stuff. I had been using Oblits, and Masters of Possession to keep them buffed and healed. I really needed a Daemon Prince.
I usually play as Black Legion and take Abaddon a lot which probably hurts me too much. Abe is fun, but slow, and Flawless Host just seems to be the only way I see Disco's played now.