Been thinking a lot about this. What about going oddball on mid strength shooting?
Black Legion Battalion, Devastation Battery:
Field Commander, Daemon's Eye, Armor Bane, Plasma Pistol, Powerfist
3*5 man CSM with chaincannon, Slaanesh
17*Rubricae w/Aspiring Sorcerer
1*5 Havocs with Autocannons, Slaanesh
Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment:
Spartan Assault Tank with Laser Destroyers
Red Corsairs Battalion
Dark Apostle, Mark of Tzeentch, Benediction of Darkness, Mutating Invocation
Sorcerer, Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime, Weaver of Fates
3*5 Chaos Marines with Autocannons, Combibolters, Slaanesh
Bit all-in on a single unit of havocs for the devastation battery, but it's a lot of CP, couple of targets that you need an eye on, and flexible options for deployment. In general, I'm thinking just loading 3 or 4 of the CSM squads in the Spartan and Warptiming the Rubrick around.
Have you already built the list, or are you just putting together something with models you already have?
I'd like to talk about it stands up to PEQ. NuMarines can play a very conservative game where they hang back and shoot from a position where you can't return fire. This list feels very vulnerable to Intercessor gimmicks and negative AP modifiers. It's a great example of how traditional Chaos lists are unprepared for dealing with NuMarines.
Before I get into this, one thing to note: Field Commander cannot be used on named Characters. Abaddon cannot take Daemon's Eye. You need to change this before playing against anyone.
The Reaper Chaincannons stood out to me, they are the weirdest heavy weapon for Chaos. ML, LC, HB, AC - all of those weapons have 36"+ range. Chaincannons are 24", Heavy 8, S5. It's only good against infantry at mid-range.
This is important because PEQ shoot at 30" range. With Tactical Doctrine, here's how a basic 5-man bolt rifle Intercessor squad performs against MSU CSM. Stand just outside 24", shoot, hit on 3s, wound on 4s, leaving you with a 5+ saves. That's one or two wounds a turn. It there's a Captain and a Lieutenant nearby giving rerolls to hit and wound, the number of wounds goes up to 3.4.
This sounds like a hard counter to MSU Chaincannon Marines, I consider it a showstopper. Even if the CSMs are in cover, they'd still need to move to shoot to do anything. I realize you're probably thinking of putting them into the Spartan and dropping them off to create a firebase, but understand - realistically, in most games, they will not disembark in the middle of his army. They will get out somewhere near his lines and only be able to shoot at one or two units. The rest of his forces can open up on this firebase, they are going to have better range than you, but they will also probably have Tactical Doctrine active by the time you disembark. So those guns are probably only good for a single turn.
OTOH, Autocannons are 48" S7 AP-1 D2 hitting on 3s with possible rerolls to hit from a CL. You outrange PEQ with guns that kill on every failed save and they have to come to you to return fire. Does not appear to be a hard counter for this unit, PEQ have to footslog to fight it and forcing them to move is always a good tactic against NuMarines.
I like how you loaded up on autcannons with the other CSM squads and the Havocs. BUT the CSMs in the Red Corsairs Detachment are MSU units. They won't get rerolls from Abaddon (the horror!) and that 3CP bring 'em back stratagem is not very valuable on a 5 man squad. If they were Black Legion, you could just stand them near Abaddon / the Dark Apostle and kill some PEQ every turn.
What really concerns me is the Spartan, they seem to be screwed against PEQ. First off, NuMarines start off with Devastator Doctrine active and they have AP -4 on some of their guns. That means you have no save against the main gun on a Repulsor, which can shoot twice. This means 3 Repulsors can put the Spartan down. Second, of the sponson weapons available, Laser Destroyers are unlikely to do much damage. Heavy 1, d6 damage 33% of the time, 2d6 damage 50%. That's a maximum of 12 wounds. Compare that to the quad lascannons with a straight 4d6 damage.
What are you going to be shooting at where S12 makes a difference over S9?
That's not saying the quad lascannons are good. You have to fire 4 lascannons at each target, it's not the same as 4 independent lascannons. Which brings me back to the Chaincannons, lascannons are only 5 points more and have a 48" range. You will likely do more wounds with a lascannon over a chaincannon simply because you don't have to get into range to fire, a turn or two of extra shooting makes a big difference against NuMarines.
Lastly, you call your list mid-range, but you have a Noctolith Crown. That's there to increase invul saves for long-range shooty units. It's a great thing if you have the right guns. I don't know what TOs think about fortification detachments, but this puts you at 4. You might want to consider this in case you want to bring this list to a tournament.
I'd really think through what you want to accomplish with the MSU marines and the Spartan. This list would benefit from re-organizing the detachments to maximize aura benefits and figuring out a uniform shooting strategy. I know this feedback sounds critical, but you do have the beginnings of a list that can stand up to NuMarines effectively. Autocannons, Lascannons and Missile Launchers appear to be our best heavy weapon options, I think you'd do better optimizing around them and forcing your opponent to close in to fight mid-range.
Edited by techsoldaten, 10 October 2019 - 02:29 PM.