Ultramarines Brigades

[Captain Idaho]

I think it had to happen. Discussion of the big one. Let's talk about taking Brigades of Ultramarines.

 

I've seen plenty of folk say a double Battalion is the way forward and I can see the relevance of this advice. If you've got plenty of Elites then you can add them to a double Battalion and cash in on the larger amounts of CPs.

 

The problem is, in my eyes, the inefficiency of the double Battalion. You're taking 6 Troops Choices and 4 HQs... a Brigades needs 6 Troops choices and 3 HQs.

 

But Idaho, you dashing and sophisticated representative of the forum, what about the other mandatory slots, I hear you chorus?

 

Well it is true there are now 9 positions in a Detachment that need filling but consider this - you're going to fill out many of these slots anyway. What army won't take 3 Heavy Support and Elites slots?

 

The problem comes with themed and focused lists of course, as well as Primaris, which I will touch upon shortly.

 

To fill all 3 Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support slots you need to be savvy in a normal points value game. 3 Land Raiders, for example, will torpedo your chances of successfully bringing a Brigade to the table.

 

Ultramarines can do well with Combined Arms armies. Lots of different types of units can work well together, especially with Strategum support and Tactical Doctrine making plenty of choices a lot more useful.

 

Look to the unsung heroes of the army list - Attack Bikes, Scouts, Servitors, Hunters, Stalkers and Whirlwinds are the obvious choices and great at not only filling in positions in a Detachment but also target saturation and more firepower and board control into a list.

 

There are other, more crafty methods to keep in mind. You need an attack force? Take a Devastator squad in a Rhino with Grav Cannons to back up your Chapter Champion. You've filled in 2 slots for fairly cheap.

 

Consider Land Speeders and Attack Bikes. Both provide cheap firepower and fill in much needed slots.

 

Now, all Primaris armies will struggle. Minimum points on Troops compounds with fairly expensive Fast Attack and Elites choices. I think Eliminators are fairly cheap though and can help fill slots nicely. They will work well in all Primaris and Classic armies to fill those Heavy Support slots.

 

Ultimately we don't have to have a Brigade to win games but all those CPs are crucial to increasing the competitiveness of our lists. Lots of Relics, an Honoured Sergeant and Warlord Traits are appealing yet we also have a bunch of Strategums to play with. Transhuman Physiology alone will cost 10 CPs to be used every turn in a 5 turn game as it is!

 

So I feel there is a strong case to take a Brigade for Ultramarines.

 

:)

Edited September 15, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Lemondish]

My biggest hurdle for a brigade is the fast attack slot.

 

I want to spend my points on heavy support and elites, maybe even transports. But fast attack are points stolen from something else.

 

Not an insurmountable challenge - so I'm intrigued with the idea of a brigade.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Lemondish

[Gederas]

If you're also willing to look at Forge World units:

Rapier Carriers with the Quad-Mortars. A whopping 85 points gives you a baby Thunderfire Cannon with two marine gunners.

 

The Brigade Heavy Support tax for Marines can be done for a grand total of 255 points with three of those. Yes, you can have the Brigade's Heavy Support slot filled for less than a single Land Raider.

 

Also more from Forge World: Fast Attack slot confusion? Tarantula Sentry Guns. (no don't ask me why these things are in the Fast Attack slot ) Specifically, Tarantula Sentry Guns with Twin Assault cannons.

 

Why? Because a Tarantula Sentry Gun with the Twin Assault cannon is 55 points (iirc, may have gone up or down slightly). So three of those sets you back a list-shattering.... 165 points. And each one is packing 12 shots at S6 AP-1 D1 with unrestricted targeting (unlike some of the other Tarantula guns). Only downside is they can't move, but if you plop them down at the edge of your deployment zone.....

Edited September 16, 2019 by Gederas

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here’s what I came up with so far (don’t know if it’s as strong as my current list):

 

 

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [101 PL, 1,960pts, 11CP] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Combat Doctrine Units Only

 

Detachment CP [12CP]

 

Gametype: Matched

 

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP]

 

Stratagem: Honoured Sergeant [-1CP]

 

Use Beta Rules

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain Cassius: 2. Catechism of Fire, 5. Recitation of Focus, Litany of Hate

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius

 

Marneus Calgar /Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Infiltrator Squad: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [-1CP]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, Veteran Intercessors

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Master-Crafted Weapon, Power fist

 

Intercessor Squad: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

 

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. 4x Scout w/Combat Knife

 

Scout Squad

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. 4x Scout w/Combat Knife

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Chapter Ancient:

Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

 

Chapter Champion:

Champion's Blade, The Burning Blade

Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

WLT - The Imperium's Sword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Land Speeders

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Heavy bolter

 

Land Speeders

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Heavy bolter

 

Land Speeders

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Heavy bolter

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad

. Space Marine Sergeant: Storm bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

Devastator Squad

. Space Marine Sergeant: Storm bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

Hellblaster Squad: Plasma incinerator

. 4x Hellblaster

. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod: Storm bolter

 

Drop Pod: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [101 PL, 11CP, 1,960pts] ++

[ThatOneMarshal]

Thank you, I thought I was the only one! I was actually gonna make a topic on it.

 

The way our lists are built we benefit so much from a brigade. I tried the double battalion and it just takes too many HQs to be useful.

 

I have also been discovering that as ultramarines we benefit a ton from having more on troops. Having a minimum of 4 intercessors helps tremendously.

 

I do think that for fast attack attack bikes are the way forward since they are so cheap for what they offer, while also being fairly hardy.

 

Eliminators make a great filler for heavy support as well.

Edited September 16, 2019 by ThatOneMarshal

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You really need some heavy hitters for your heavy support... picking the cheapest units to max out on CPs is not a good idea imo.

[Joukernaut]

After playing a couple of games with the new codex, I think a brigade can be viable, but not in a primaris only army. Primaris lack cheap filler options, and like BBF said, you need some heavy hitters in your list somewhere, so you need some cheap fillers for a brigade as well.

Also, the fourth HQ for a double batallion is not necessarily a bad thing, we have some very, very usefull characters.

That said, I am looking into fielding a brigade myself for those lovely commandpoints.

[ThatOneMarshal]

You really need some heavy hitters for your heavy support... picking the cheapest units to max out on CPs is not a good idea imo.

That’s true, though thankfully some of our heavy hitters are actually fairly affordable!

 

For example one of our best units is currently the aggressor who for the price point is actually really cost effective.

 

I think it’s important to find a mix between scouts and tax’s/primaris for troops in order to maximize our cost effectiveness currently.

 

I think that’s the brigade in a nut shell, you need to mix the cheap units along with some hard hitting firepower to get your best bang for your buck.

 

For example I’m planning on utilizing the elites slot for two invictors and a full aggressor squad. The aggressors help to put some pressure turn 1 giving enough time for the aggressors to march up along with tiguiurius.

 

I haven’t seen the math on our eliminators with las fusils but they do seem fairly effective for the price point, maybe take two and then a heavy hitter?

[Captain Idaho]

I think BBF's list is kinda what I'm thinking. Land Speeders would probably be armed differently for me, Typhoons specifically, but are still cheap. Attack Bikers are great options for 37pts.

 

Funny you put Calgar in there - ALL the Command Points!

 

***

 

Heavy hitters in the Heavy Support is essential for sure. I'm using 2 Hunters in my competitive lists as they are nice Lascannon equivalent platforms that saturate target selection for opponents, but I am using Centurions also which are a heavy hitting unit.

 

I'm toying with 5 Devastators also as 4 Grav Cannons with the Strategum will just be horrible.

[crazyterran]

Attack bikes are the cheapest FA Slot filler, and definitely better than a Tarantula for the same points. 

 

My brigade is something like:

 

Brigade:

 

HQ:

 

Captain - Relic Blade, Bolt Pistol, Adept of the Codex, Sanctic Halo, Chapter Master (-2cp) - 83

 

LT - Power Axe, Master of Strategy (-1cp), Seal of Oaths (-1cp) - 65

 

Cassius - Recitation of Focus, Catachism of Fire, Litany of Hate - 85

 

TROOP:

 

Tac - ML - 80

Tac - ML - 80

Tac - ML - 80

Tac - Combi-Plas, Plas - 82

Tac - Combi-Plas, Plas - 82

Tac - Combi-Flamer, Flamer - 74

 

Elite:

 

Chapter Ancient - 75

Chapter Champion - 55

Apothecary - 50

 

FA:

 

Attack Bike - Heavy Bolter - 37

Attack Bike - Heavy Bolter - 37

Attack Bike - Heavy Bolter - 37

 

Heavy:

 

Leviathan - 2x Stormcannons, 2x Heavy Flamer - 303

Leviathan - 2x Stormcannons, 2x Heavy Flamer - 303

Contemptor Mortis - 2x Twin Lascannon - 168

Contemptor Mortis - 2x Twin Lascannon - 168

 

Total: 1944

 

I get 56 points to play with after that, whether it's HK Missiles for that first turn punch, or a Techmarine, or beefing some units up, or finding some points to drop to pick up the CMLs for the Contemptors. 

[MadEdric]

I've found that while I can build a Brigade, it often included models i don't think meshed well with the rest, my mission goals starting to wander than being focused.

With the new codex, I'm starting to rethink that.

Ultramarines also have something no other Chapter has, good old Sgt. Chronus. Put him in a dakka predator and you have a pretty cheap and effective HQ/Heavy combo.

HQ:

Tigurius, Telion, Chronus w/ predator (Autocannon, Heavy Bolters)

Troops: 10 Man: Infiltrators, Intercessors, x2 Tacticals. 5 man: sniper scouts, bolter scouts (with HB)

Elite: Apothecary, Ancient, champion

Fast: Landspeeder, attack bike, suppessors

Heavy: Centurions Devs, Whirlwind

That list comes to 1905 after giving out weapon options. What else could be added for the remaining points? Another HQ to give some aura buffs? Aggressors? Boost the predator to a better option (lascannons)?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m not all that crazy about your list CT... might as well go IH.

[crazyterran]

All my marines are painted Blue with the Ultima and I'm not a (complete) power gaming cheese monkey, so, no, I shouldn't go IH. 

 

Besides, I prefer going into Tactical Doctrine and getting the other weapons contributing rather than boost guns that are already going to do the job more than sufficiently, seeing as they are some of our best weapons. Once you get past -2 the effectiveness drops a bit, as a lot of things are running around with 4++ or 5++ or ways to generate them. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Those are some good points ! /thumbsup

 

I’m not going to play IH either.

[emperorpants]

Ultras are actually quite good.  I honestly think they are a very good and well balanced army that is quite flexible.  Ultramarines are perfectly viable.  Well, as viable as any list can be with the advent of the crazy gak that is the iron hands supplement.  It's quite insane.  That said, I will also continue to play Ultramarines.  As I said, they are a powerful (but not op) well balanced and versatile army.  I'd play them even if they sucked.  I'm just a big Ultra fan, sue me.  lol.  I think it's silly to switch to the most broken thing at any given moment.  It won't stay broken for long, and then you have to buy a new army, or paint your army all over again because something else is the new hotness.  

[crazyterran]

Those are some good points ! /thumbsup

 

I’m not going to play IH either.

 

Excellent! Don't cave to the cheese! (our brothers who've been IH all along exempted, of course!)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Finally another Chapter will take the heat. :D

[Aspecti]

Here's my 1750pts Brigade I used in a recent tournament.

 

HQ1 Captain on Bike, Storm Shield, Storm Bolter, Relic: Vengeance of Ultramar WARLORD: Adept of the Codex, spend 1 CP to get Paragon of War also [102]​​

HQ2 Techmarine, Combi-plasma, Power Axe, Relic: Seal of Oath -1CP [61]​

HQ3 Sergeant Telion [65]​​

​​

Troop1 Scout Squad, 4xSniper Rifle, Chainsword, Missile Launcher [83]​​

Troop2 Scout Squad, 4xBoltgun, Heavy Bolter, 2xAdditional Scout, 2xSniper Rifle, Chainsword [91]​

Troop3 Scout Squad, 5xBoltgun, Chainsword [55]​​​

Troop4 Scout Squad, 5xBoltgun, Chainsword [55]​​​

Troop5 Scout Squad, 5xSniper Rifle [65]​​

​Troop6 Tactical Squad, Combi-plasma, Melta bombs, Heavy Bolter [86]​

​

Elite1 Contemptor Dreadnought, Dreadnough combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon, Combi-bolter [132]​​

Elite2 Contemptor Dreadnought, Dreadnough combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon, Combi-bolter [132]​​

Elite3 Contemptor Dreadnought, Dreadnough combat weapon, Kheres pattern assault cannon, Combi-bolter [132]​​

​​

Fast1 Scout Bike Squad, Boltgun [69]​​

Fast2 Scout Bike Squad, Boltgun [69]​​

Fast3 Scout Bike Squad, Boltgun [69]​​

​​

Heavy1 Thunderfire Cannon [92]​

Heavy2 Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher [85]​

Heavy3 Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher [85]​

Heavy4 Whirlwind, Vengeance Launcher [85]​

Heavy5 Devastator Squad, 2xHeavy Bolter, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub [135] ​​

 

The list needs tweaking for sure, I'm ditching the Contemptors and the Techmarine HQ at least, since I can just give the Seal of Oath to the Techmarine gunner of the TFC (I only realized that after submitting my list to the tournament organizer). Needs more big guns.

[Captain Idaho]

What would you exchange the Contemptors for?

 

Interesting take on Brigades from everyone - we're all different.

 

My own Brigade is as follows:

 

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [96 PL, 11CP, 1,749pts] ++

 

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP]

 

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP]

 

Stratagem: Honoured Sergeant [-1CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain on Bike [6 PL, 101pts]: Power fist, Storm bolter, Twin boltgun, Vengeance of Ultramar

 

Chaplain [4 PL, 72pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, Adept of the Codex, Bolt pistol, Litany of Hate, Seal of Oath, Warlord

 

Librarian [5 PL, 88pts]: 2) Scryer's Gaze, 5) Psychic Shackles, Bolt pistol, Force stave

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Tactical Squad [4 PL, 87pts]

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

 

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 120pts]

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

 

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 162pts]

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combi-plasma

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

 

+ Elites +

 

Chapter Champion [3 PL, -1CP, 55pts]: Champion's blade, Master-crafted power sword, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Burning Blade, The Imperium's Sword

 

Company Veterans [8 PL, 90pts]

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Storm shield

. Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Storm shield

 

Redemptor Dreadnought [7 PL, 161pts]: 2x Storm Bolters, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 37pts]

. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

 

Land Speeders [4 PL, 87pts]

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

 

Land Speeders [4 PL, 87pts]

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Centurion Devastator Squad [12 PL, 210pts]

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Master-Crafted Weapon, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Hunter [4 PL, 75pts]

 

Hunter [4 PL, 75pts]

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Rhino [3 PL, 67pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Total: [96 PL, 11CP, 1,749pts] ++

 

 

(Sorry don't normally just transcribe from Battle scribe but working)

Edited September 17, 2019 by Captain Idaho

[Aspecti]

I was thinking of swapping the Contemptors for Invictor Tactical Warsuits with autocannons and the Techmarine for Chronus in a Whirlwind. Also bumping the scout sniper squad with the missile launcher to full 10 models, removing the sniper rifle from the sergeant and giving him a boltgun, then give him Hellfury bolts with the Honoured Sergeant stratagem. With Telion buffing that unit, the sergeant can reliably deal 1 mortal wound every turn.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes 10 Scouts alongside Telion is definitely the way forward. 8 Sniper rifles, Mortal Wound boltgun and a Missile Launcher is a big thumbs up from me.

 

Invictors are pretty good. They put pressure on opponents early too.

 

I do like Contemptors though. They move surprisingly quickly and 3 will be a problem opponents HAVE to deal with.

 

Likely you can't go far wrong with either choice, really.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Eliminators are rad too.

[MegaVolt87]

Has Chronos changed much? Anyone putting him in a vindi laser destroyer? I think that sounds cool ! 

[MadEdric]

Has Chronos changed much? Anyone putting him in a vindi laser destroyer? I think that sounds cool ! 

Chronus is pretty much the same. A bargain at his points. I used him in a Landraider Crusader a couple weeks ago and he was MVP vs the Orks I was playing against.

I'll be trying him out in a lascannon Pred this coming Sunday.

something most likely like this:

 

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [102 PL, -3CP, 1,999pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

 

Relics of the Chapter (1 Relic) [-1CP]

 

Stratagem: Honoured Sergeant [-1CP]

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 117pts]: Combi-melta, Exemplar of the Chapter, Iron Resolve, Jump Pack, Paragon of War, Relic blade, The Sanctic Halo, Warlord

 

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 130pts]: 2) Scryer's Gaze, 3) Telepathic Assault, 4) Storm of the Emperor's Wrath

 

Sergeant Chronus [10 PL, -1CP, 207pts]: Calm Under Fire, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter

. Predator: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

+ Troops +

 

Infiltrator Squad [11 PL, 230pts]: 8x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Helix Adept, Infiltrator Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 172pts]: 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 9x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword, Hellfury Bolts

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 80pts]: 5x Camo cloak

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 3x Scout w/Boltgun

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

 

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 151pts]

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

 

Tactical Squad [7 PL, 145pts]

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power fist

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Flamer

 

+ Elites +

 

Apothecary [3 PL, 50pts]

 

Chapter Ancient [4 PL, 75pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

 

Chapter Champion [3 PL, 55pts]: Champion's blade, Master-crafted power sword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Attack Bike Squad [2 PL, 37pts]

. Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

 

Land Speeders [4 PL, 87pts]

. Land Speeder: Heavy bolter, Typhoon missile launcher

 

Suppressor Squad [4 PL, 90pts]

. 2x Suppressor: 2x Accelerator autocannon, 2x Grav-chute

. Suppressor Sergeant: Accelerator autocannon, Grav-chute

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Centurion Devastator Squad [12 PL, 210pts]

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, Two Heavy Bolters

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 98pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Las Fusil: 2x Camo cloak, 2x Las Fusil

 

This will be against either Space Wolves or Drukhari.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like this list. It looks strong and has flavor.