1403 replies to this topic

[Juggernut]

Are there any text-based reviews yet? Not interested in videos.

[Dark Shepherd]

Thanks Lemondish. They really seem to be driving towards natural rolls of 6s for benefitts but also away from super stacks. Either way can see that being nerfed in the FAQ

For Salamanders (and more) it seems funny theres all these (potential) buffs for thunder hammers AFTER they jack up the points cost for them. Or maybe that just explains it. And or they hate BA smash captains

[Gederas]

I like GMG’s reviews. Forgot about the name generators in these books, really cool added bonus feature. Anyone know whether the cyclonic melta lance of the leviathan dreadnought is affected by the Sallamander’s tactical doctrine.

Per the 2.0 Space Marine's codex, pg 166.

'MELTA WEAPONS
A melta weapon is any weapon whose profile includes the word 'melta' (meltagun, multi-melta, etc.) and any Relic that replaces a melta weapon. Rules that apply to melta weapons also apply to the meltagun profile of combi-meltas, and the meltagun profile of Relics that replace combi-meltas'

 

RAW and RAI, yes. Because it's got the word Melta in its name

 

Edit: Whoops, just saw this was already answered. My bad

Edited by Gederas, 19 October 2019 - 02:39 PM.

[jaxom]

 

 

Watching SS82’s review and it looks like Phobos units can be part of the scout company, but we’ve seen battle company Phobos too, so my head cannon says that Primaris recruits train as vanguard marines, but regular battle brothers can also fill that roll if it is required of them. Will buy the supplement to have a read and find out for sure, love Sallies anyway so should be an interesting read.

The way I understood it from the supplements I read is that all chapters are supposed to have 100 vanguards in addition to the scouts in the 10th company, but the other companies can still decide to wear phobos (9th company trains as eliminators, reivers in 8th, regular companies can go as any phobos.)

I think the 10th company vanguards are those marines that simply decided that they works best as vanguards, but I could be wrong.

10th Company Vanguard are Primaris trainees.

 

 

The post-Indomitus Crusade progression for an initiate is that a newly-minted, fully enhanced (i.e. Black Carapace implantation complete) Primaris spends additional time in the 10th as part of the standing force of ten Vanguard Squds before moving to a Reserve company. 

 

Scout Squad, 10th Company --> Vanguard Squad, 10th Company --> Fire Support Squad, 9th R. Company --> etc.

 

They're trainees as much as a pre-Primaris new member of the 9th Reserve Company was. Based off the 10th Company description from the UM supplement and "In Memoriam" the Marines that decide they work best in the 10th Company are the Scout Squad sergeants and any 10th Company Vanguard Squard or Reserve Company Squad have battle brothers promoted from within the company.

[MagicHat]

 

 

Watching SS82’s review and it looks like Phobos units can be part of the scout company, but we’ve seen battle company Phobos too, so my head cannon says that Primaris recruits train as vanguard marines, but regular battle brothers can also fill that roll if it is required of them. Will buy the supplement to have a read and find out for sure, love Sallies anyway so should be an interesting read.

The way I understood it from the supplements I read is that all chapters are supposed to have 100 vanguards in addition to the scouts in the 10th company, but the other companies can still decide to wear phobos (9th company trains as eliminators, reivers in 8th, regular companies can go as any phobos.)

I think the 10th company vanguards are those marines that simply decided that they works best as vanguards, but I could be wrong.

10th Company Vanguard are Primaris trainees.

 

 

Ultramarines supplement: "To this end, it supports a one-hundred strong cadre of Primaris Vanguard Marines alongside the steady influx of novitiates beginning their combar training to become full battle-borthers." "At times, the Chapter's Scout Squads support the operations of their company's Vanguard Squad [...]".

 

Raven Guard supplement: "Indeed, it is not uncommon for the more proven Scout elements of the Subtle to go into battle alongside their elite Vanguard comrades".

 

Raises the question of when the Primaris specific organs are inserted, but it seems to me like even Primaris starts as Scout squads and the 10th Vanguards are the brothers best at wearing Phobos.

[Juggernut]

Are there any text-based reviews yet? Not interested in videos.

 

https://www.goonhamm...nhammer-review/

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

Watching SS82’s review and it looks like Phobos units can be part of the scout company, but we’ve seen battle company Phobos too, so my head cannon says that Primaris recruits train as vanguard marines, but regular battle brothers can also fill that roll if it is required of them. Will buy the supplement to have a read and find out for sure, love Sallies anyway so should be an interesting read.

The way I understood it from the supplements I read is that all chapters are supposed to have 100 vanguards in addition to the scouts in the 10th company, but the other companies can still decide to wear phobos (9th company trains as eliminators, reivers in 8th, regular companies can go as any phobos.)

I think the 10th company vanguards are those marines that simply decided that they works best as vanguards, but I could be wrong.

10th Company Vanguard are Primaris trainees.

 

 

Ultramarines supplement: "To this end, it supports a one-hundred strong cadre of Primaris Vanguard Marines alongside the steady influx of novitiates beginning their combar training to become full battle-borthers." "At times, the Chapter's Scout Squads support the operations of their company's Vanguard Squad [...]".

 

Raven Guard supplement: "Indeed, it is not uncommon for the more proven Scout elements of the Subtle to go into battle alongside their elite Vanguard comrades".

 

Raises the question of when the Primaris specific organs are inserted, but it seems to me like even Primaris starts as Scout squads and the 10th Vanguards are the brothers best at wearing Phobos.

 

 

The primaris organs are implanted alongside the others,  sinew coils and magnificat go in between phase 3 (Biscopea) and 4 (Haemastamen) organs. It's not clear when the furnace is added though.

 

But yeah, as a lot of people have said for a lot of time, it seems like primaris still go through scout training for at least some modern chapters.

[jaxom]

EDIT: Previous post went up while I was typing and covers it. 

Edited by jaxom, 19 October 2019 - 03:26 PM.

[jaxom]

 

Are there any text-based reviews yet? Not interested in videos.

 

https://www.goonhamm...nhammer-review/

 

 

Thank you. It reads like the IF were designed around the concept of repelling an assaulting force.

 

Long Range Stage 1: Heavy guns firing at transports and other tanks

Long Range Stage 2: Targeting infantry, probably still in Devastator Doctrine for autocannons, heavy bolters, etc.

Medium Range Stage: Targeting infantry, probably switching to Tactical Doctrine, especially in preparation for...

Short Range Stage 1: Hold the line receiving an assault, Shock Assault and Banner seeing use here. Follow it with...

Short Range Stage 2: Swap to Assault Doctrine. Use Close-Range Bolter Drill so you get some more shooting if they tagged a unit that is happy shooting and staying in melee (I couldn't tell from the write up if it is army-wide. If so, character relic bolters could see some use, but I think the real users are going to be centurions and aggressors).

Short Range Stage 3: Counter-assault, get more out of the Banner and bring in your one or two dedicated close combat units.

Short Range Stage 4: Count survivors, either the enemy is on the back footing or you are, and all that's left is to either get ground down or to grind down.

 

The IF have the individual tools to be good at each discrete portion of the battle, but not a single overarching rule/tool which blends one portion into another (like UM or IH).

 

EDIT: Seriously heavy bolter centurions with close-range bolter drill in Assault Doctrine. Six heavy bolter shots and 6 hurricane bolter shots at AP-2 and AP-1, respectively, followed by 3 Strength 5 AP-1 attacks in the Fight Phase. I could see using a squad of six as bait for a horde, losing 2-3, and then hitting back with a total of 45-60 anti-infantry attacks between shooting and close combat.

Edited by jaxom, 19 October 2019 - 04:03 PM.

[Schlitzaf]

It appears Templars can access IF Supplement rules

[Petitioner's City]

Are there any text-based reviews yet? Not interested in videos.

https://www.goonhamm...nhammer-review/

Those models...

😍😍😍

Edited by Petitioner's City, 19 October 2019 - 04:11 PM.

[wildweasel]

Salamanders get Totally Not Veterans of the Long War, so they can wound literally anything on a 4+ with flamers.

Also a 1 CP Strat usable with shooting or Overwatch, choose a unit model, all their flamer and melta weapons do a MW in addition to any normal damage on an unmodified wound roll of 4+.

Yes, with Flamecraft that’s a full unit of Aggressors dumping 72 hits and averaging 36 mortal wounds. And if they didn’t advance they can use the “count as stationary” to do it twice.

Those 6 Aggressors, in Tactical Doctrine, using TNVotLW, Flamecraft, and the MW strat kill a Warhound Titan on average dice (and even have a bit of cushion as I haven’t factored the declining void shield save vs the MW).

 

Thank you Charlo! The problem with trying to follow along on video reviews, missed the MW flamer/melta Strat is a single model. I did note it is shooting or Overwatch through! Still good as if you are Flamecrafting the Aggressor unit, like one guy can shoot something else and put 6 or so MW on it plus the flamer wounds while the other 5 burn a primary target.

Edited by wildweasel, 19 October 2019 - 04:31 PM.

[Charlo]

Salamanders get Totally Not Veterans of the Long War, so they can wound literally anything on a 4+ with flamers.

Also a 1 CP Strat usable with shooting or Overwatch, choose a unit, all their flamer and melta weapons do a MW in addition to any normal damage on an unmodified wound roll of 4+.

Yes, with Flamecraft that’s a full unit of Aggressors dumping 72 hits and averaging 36 mortal wounds. And if they didn’t advance they can use the “count as stationary” to do it twice.

Those 6 Aggressors, in Tactical Doctrine, using TNVotLW, Flamecraft, and the MW strat kill a Warhound Titan on average dice (and even have a bit of cushion as I haven’t factored the declining void shield save vs the MW).

Please don't spread misinformation!

It's a single MODEL for the mortal wounds, not a unit.

And it's not just overwatch.

[Charlo]

Also I think IF are very powerful. They do everything well and really maximise the humble bolter, even outside of tactical doctrine.

Bolter Centurions in the Vigilus detachment can get 100+ shots that deal mortal wounds on a 5+.

Edited by Charlo, 19 October 2019 - 04:28 PM.

[Cryptix]

Anyone got a text review for salamanders?

[CaptainMarsh]

Salamander Strategems are very effective. You can bunch them up for a single unit single phase of tremendous, awful hurt or you can cherry pick the right situations. Excellent output with some nifty defensive strategems as well. 

The Relics are pretty good. Nothing jumps out as a clear auto-take, but multiple options seem to be extremely useful. I think in terms of Special Issue Wargear they are on par with others, though the Obsidian Aquila's aura of FnP is nice. Same with the Warlord Traits, though managing to get Bray'arth Ashmantle to T11 is quite silly.

Overall, very cool. Adrax is good, He'Stan is good, the doctrine bonus is a bit too focused when compared with others but still very effective, the strategems are a very nice collection.

[Fulkes]

I don't really agree with a fair bit of Goonhammer's assessment as gunline Marines aren't that strong of an army build and pther than against vehicles and buildings we don't have enough bonuses to justify sitting in the devastator doctrine.

[Hellebras]

They do echo my thoughts on the "all the orbital strikes" idea, however. The rules for orbital strikes, whether they come from the (absurdly expensive for what you get) stratagem, the warlord trait (opportunity cost of taking up a trait slot), or the Impulsor's comms array, are just... bad. Really bad. It's inconsistent (d3 mortal wounds, on a roll of a 4+, on any units within d6" of a chosen point, which only hit characters on a 5+), and even if you roll a 6 for distance with all three at once and get the entire Iron Hands castle (which is pretty much your best case scenario if the errata didn't nullify it entirely) you're dealing between 0 and 9 wounds in your supposedly useful trick to units within that radius. And still spending 3 command points, a warlord trait, and 18 points and a turret slot for the privilege. I can see the orbital comms array making it into a game for me, and I guess I might use the other orbital strike options once in a blue moon for fun.

 

I miss the old orbital strike rules. They were at least more fun.

[jeremy1391]

An indomitable stubborn heroism Gravis chapter master with the eye of hypnoth is gonna make its way into my list lol

[jaxom]

we don't have enough bonuses to justify sitting in the devastator doctrine.

 

I apologize in advance as I'm really just using this as an excuse for a mini-rant rather than addressing the comment as it actually was intended from Fulkes, a real person who is fantastic and whose commentary and thoughts I enjoy reading.

 

The worst part about Iron Hands, in my opinion, is that (I subjectively feel from the commentary regarding IF and Sallies in this thread) is has burdened the following Space Marine supplements with a comparison to an army that only needs to ever be in one Doctrine. Raven Guard and White Scars don't and work best moving through all three doctrines. Ultramarines have to spend at least one turn in Devastator before switching to Tactical for most of - if not all of- the rest of the game. And what makes it worse, is that it makes sense from a narrative perspective that UM and IH stay in those doctrines most of the time!

[Slips]

I don't really agree with a fair bit of Goonhammer's assessment as gunline Marines aren't that strong of an army build and pther than against vehicles and buildings we don't have enough bonuses to justify sitting in the devastator doctrine.

To me, the point of the IF rules is that you start in Dev, blowing vehicles up (or the unicorn of a building should you encounter one) during the first 1-2 turns then you swap to Tactical Doctrine and hose down infantry or whatever the vehicles were transporting in Tactical Doctrine then head into assault doctrine to clean up. (The idea of going into Assault for IF is only really a thing because we have a strat to turn Bolt Weapons into Pistols among other things).

 

Like the fluff of the codex suggests doctrines are generally used by space marines instead of just sitting in the same one all game (like IH) or rushing through them all ASAP (like White Scars).

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think it would be more interesting if the chapter specific doctrine bonuses all became active during the assault one. It's just weird that one chapter has to go through 2 doctrines to activate theirs compared to a couple that start with it active

[Reclusiarch Krieg]

It seems that CF overall have more toys in the IF dex than IF themselves. Not that me and my new CF force mind though

[Fulkes]

I don't really agree with a fair bit of Goonhammer's assessment as gunline Marines aren't that strong of an army build and pther than against vehicles and buildings we don't have enough bonuses to justify sitting in the devastator doctrine.

To me, the point of the IF rules is that you start in Dev, blowing vehicles up (or the unicorn of a building should you encounter one) during the first 1-2 turns then you swap to Tactical Doctrine and hose down infantry or whatever the vehicles were transporting in Tactical Doctrine then head into assault doctrine to clean up. (The idea of going into Assault for IF is only really a thing because we have a strat to turn Bolt Weapons into Pistols among other things).

Like the fluff of the codex suggests doctrines are generally used by space marines instead of just sitting in the same one all game (like IH) or rushing through them all ASAP (like White Scars).

I agree completely. It feels like Imperial Fists have reasons to be in every doctrine (even assault with the banner and how we can buff a unit near objectives). The idea of a IF gunline that doesn't want to move up the table or actively engage in the rest of the doctrines doesn't fit the rules.

[01RTB01]

It seems that CF overall have more toys in the IF dex than IF themselves. Not that me and my new CF force mind though

Howso? Please enlighten