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Codex Supplement: Salamanders and Imperial Fists Leaks


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#1376
Lemondish

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It appears Templars can access IF Supplement rules


The title of the book is incorrect - it's Crimson Fist supplement with some Imperial Fist rules ;)

This has been might disappointing. Nothing in this supplement seems as well thought out as the others. The tools range from mediocre to completely useless*. Tor is good on paper, but that's a huge cost for an HQ that will always play second fiddle to a chapter master. Had to wait 2 months for this crap. Oh well, I guess there's always my next project to look forward to.

* Provided buildings remain as they are today

#1377
Thalidar

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It seems that CF overall have more toys in the IF dex than IF themselves. Not that me and my new CF force mind though :P



Howso? Please enlighten :D

CF can access IF but not other way

Edited by Thalidar, 20 October 2019 - 12:57 AM.

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#1378
Lemondish

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It seems that CF overall have more toys in the IF dex than IF themselves. Not that me and my new CF force mind though :P


Howso? Please enlighten :D
CF can access IF but not other way

Yep. The WD stuff being added resulted in inexplicably limiting IF options rather than coming on top of them.

#1379
01RTB01

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Crimson fists can access imp fists stratagems and such?... Seems a tad odd but I wouldn't complain!
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#1380
CCE1981

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Holy bejesus those Salamanders Stratagems!

#1381
Lemondish

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Crimson fists can access imp fists stratagems and such?... Seems a tad odd but I wouldn't complain!

Yeah, they can gain access to like 95% of the book.

The Imperial Fists, however, despite being the name on the cover are truly only able to use like 90%.

It's such an awkward decision. Tor Garadon being just a captain is awkward too. A gunline having a melee boost relic is awkward. A psychic relic for rerolling powers from a Discipline that never exceeds WC6 is awkward. A Warlord trait that grants D3 CP at the start of the battle is awkward. Having so many bonuses against buildings, a unit that never, ever exists, is awkward. The Doctrine not applying to all hard, big targets is awkward. The whole thing feels half baked.

I'm eager to get my boys in yellow on the table to really tweak my list. I know I'll need more mobility - it's just a matter of finding out where it'll come from.

Edited by Lemondish, 20 October 2019 - 10:29 AM.

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#1382
InKaras

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The special editions sold out fast online... Always loved the imperial fists and the yellow. :)


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#1383
chapter master 454

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The special editions sold out fast online... Always loved the imperial fists and the yellow. smile.png

 

Shame they will all be misprinted with an imperial fist icon on the inside instead of a crimson fist one msn-wink.gif


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

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#1384
Reclusiarch Krieg

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Codex: Rynn's World it is, indeed. Finally justice for Alexis Polux's lot! ;)


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#1385
01RTB01

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Thanks Lemondish.

I have to say it seems like the classic spoilt younger sibling versus the elder. However, as a player of fists (blue) for fluff first and foremost, they're looking pretty punchy!
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#1386
Dark Shepherd

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Looking at Salamanders strats, these 2 are awesome, especially the first one

The Fires of Battle (1CP): Use only in your shooting phase or Opponent’s charge phase. Wounds of a 4+ for flamer weapons do 1 mortal wound in addition to normal damage.

Immolation Protocols (1CP): Flame weapons become Pistol weapons until the end of the phase. This just lets you shoot your flamers while you’re tied up in combat. (Assault D6 becomes pistol D6).

#1387
Frater Antodeniel

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While i'm a Blood Angels, i keep an eye on the other Astartes releases, and i have a question.

 

I don't remember Space Marines codex allowing having the option for hand-flamers, also, after watching the Salamanders supplement, it appeared that there is not mention of such option. But on the other...hand^^, the Salamanders sprue comes with hand-flammers, so my question is,

 

Does Salamanders (Primaris and Characters) have access to hand-flamers as a weapon option ?


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#1388
Fenriwolf

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While i'm a Blood Angels, i keep an eye on the other Astartes releases, and i have a question.

 

I don't remember Space Marines codex allowing having the option for hand-flamers, also, after watching the Salamanders supplement, it appeared that there is not mention of such option. But on the other...hand^^, the Salamanders sprue comes with hand-flammers, so my question is,

 

Does Salamanders (Primaris and Characters) have access to hand-flamers as a weapon option ?

All intercessor sergeant can take hand flamers


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#1389
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Crimson fists can access imp fists stratagems and such?... Seems a tad odd but I wouldn't complain!

Yeah, they can gain access to like 95% of the book.

The Imperial Fists, however, despite being the name on the cover are truly only able to use like 90%.

It's such an awkward decision. Tor Garadon being just a captain is awkward too. A gunline having a melee boost relic is awkward. A psychic relic for rerolling powers from a Discipline that never exceeds WC6 is awkward. A Warlord trait that grants D3 CP at the start of the battle is awkward. Having so many bonuses against buildings, a unit that never, ever exists, is awkward. The Doctrine not applying to all hard, big targets is awkward. The whole thing feels half baked.

I'm eager to get my boys in yellow on the table to really tweak my list. I know I'll need more mobility - it's just a matter of finding out where it'll come from.
The idea that IF should be judged as a gunline is a mistake.


The special editions sold out fast online... Always loved the imperial fists and the yellow. smile.png


Shame they will all be misprinted with an imperial fist icon on the inside instead of a crimson fist one msn-wink.gif
That's because no one wpuld buy a book about finger painting Ultramarines. ;)

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#1390
Lemondish

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Crimson fists can access imp fists stratagems and such?... Seems a tad odd but I wouldn't complain!

Yeah, they can gain access to like 95% of the book.

The Imperial Fists, however, despite being the name on the cover are truly only able to use like 90%.

It's such an awkward decision. Tor Garadon being just a captain is awkward too. A gunline having a melee boost relic is awkward. A psychic relic for rerolling powers from a Discipline that never exceeds WC6 is awkward. A Warlord trait that grants D3 CP at the start of the battle is awkward. Having so many bonuses against buildings, a unit that never, ever exists, is awkward. The Doctrine not applying to all hard, big targets is awkward. The whole thing feels half baked.

I'm eager to get my boys in yellow on the table to really tweak my list. I know I'll need more mobility - it's just a matter of finding out where it'll come from.
The idea that IF should be judged as a gunline is a mistake.

 

The special editions sold out fast online... Always loved the imperial fists and the yellow. smile.png


Shame they will all be misprinted with an imperial fist icon on the inside instead of a crimson fist one msn-wink.gif
That's because no one wpuld buy a book about finger painting Ultramarines. msn-wink.gif

 

 

If it's such a mistake, why are there so many rules in this very supplement that encourage it? Unlike our Iron brethren, we can't move and still fire to full effect, and due to the nature of the exploding sixes it's best to stay put, surrounding a chapter master, and fire away. Even the better of the weak psychic powers encourage protecting a gunline. Warlord traits that incur saving throw bonuses to your gunline elements in cover and the best units that synergize with all these pieces are slow moving, stable firing platforms with little to no assault capability. All our power comes from shooting things, and doing it while maintaining cover for our troops and denying cover to our opponent's. 

 

Sure, the special characters, one stratagem, and one relic encourage moving forward, but every single one of those options are weaker than staying back and shooting. Just because one could play a more assault focused, mobility driven IF army doesn't mean one should.  



#1391
Fulkes

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We only get bonuses against one unit type, with no additional rerolls or range increases. The bolt weapon buff more buffs our troops than the expensive heavy weapons due to the volume of fire it provides us.

Basically we are shooty, but I don't feel a static playstyle works for Marines. It makes us too passive and it doesn't play the mission well.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#1392
jaxom

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I think the IF as gun line needs to explored from two different angles. The first is Codex: Space Marines.

 

 

Unlike our Iron brethren, we can't move and still fire to full effect, and due to the nature of the exploding sixes it's best to stay put, surrounding a chapter master, and fire away.

 

You're right; the IF can't move and fire heavy weapons to full effect. Neither can Raven Guard, White Scars, and any non-IH or non-UM Space Marine army. Yet, moving is required to get to objectives, and to keep line of sight and/or range against a canny opponent. The codex itself matches what has been a design point of Space Marines for at least twenty years; one must engage in all the phases to get the most out of the army (except maybe psychic). If one is paying for Str 4 then it's a waste not to use it when facing chaff. The Bolter Discipline rules and Shock Assault help with this, autobolt rifles help with this, Assault Doctrine helps with this. A generic C:SMarine army cannot afford to ever be just a gun line.

 

Second: what about the supplements that do get mobility?

 

We have the Iron Hands and the Ultramarines. They're special doctrine rules don't make for a better gun line, but increase mobility. 

 

Who benefits the most from ignoring heavy weapon penalties to movement out of Codex: Space Marines? Vehicles, Devastator squads, sniper units, and Suppressor squads. Which chapter should get the benefit and why? For the most part, it seems from interviews that concept informs models which informs the rules and the army-wide rules (which are not married to model design) also come from concept. From my perspective it makes a lot of sense that the Chapter which supposedly does the most with armored spearheads (i.e. moving tank columns) gets this. The Ultramarines, with their rule, maintain overwhelming tactical flexibility with movement and shooting as befits them exemplifying a mobile shock force. I think this is enough to explain why I don't think the Imperial Fists should get move-and-shoot heavy weapons (and I don't think this is the appropriate thread to go into more detail whether this matches how Iron Hands and Ultramarines have been used by casual and competition players).

 

 

Warlord traits that incur saving throw bonuses to your gunline elements in cover and the best units that synergize with all these pieces are slow moving, stable firing platforms with little to no assault capability. All our power comes from shooting things, and doing it while maintaining cover for our troops and denying cover to our opponent's. 

Sure, the special characters, one stratagem, and one relic encourage moving forward, but every single one of those options are weaker than staying back and shooting. Just because one could play a more assault focused, mobility driven IF army doesn't mean one should.  

 

 

Personally, I don't think it's about focusing on mobility and assault anymore than focusing on a static gunline; there should be an awareness that all three primary phases of the game require attention. The stratagems Steady Advance, Adaptive Strategy, Big Guns Never Tire, Rapid Fire from C:SM along with Close-Range Bolter Fire and Bolter Drill from S:IF all provide tools to do so. The reliance on cover to make certain aspects of the army work is lateral to movement and neither exclusive nor inclusive. The special characters feel appropriately like Imperial Fists to me; I'd have been disappointed if the majority weren't about beating down things with power fists. Tor's a great counter-attack unit who also helps with shooting. Lysander, to me, fits the simmering Dornian rage that Imperial Fists are capable of when pushed too far. Neither is a perfect unit and there are other options which may be better depending on what one wants; I think that's good for a special character. They have a niche, they feel good to play with, but they're not required to make a functioning list.


Edited by jaxom, 20 October 2019 - 06:53 PM.

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#1393
Ancient Glory

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Anyone got a text review for salamanders?

 

Ask and ye shall receive https://www.goonhamm...nhammer-review/


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#1394
PiñaColada

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While it might not make that many competitive lists I actually really do like the reiver lieutenant now that he can use a Drakeblade. Combine that with the Imperium's Sword and he's pretty scary. I'm still upset that build somehow makes him remove his grav-chute but 5/6 attacks hitting on 2's with a reroll and wounding a lot of things on either 3's or 5's (with a possibility of just adding a +1), rerolling 1's and an additional reroll. All that at AP-4 and D2 (with an additional mortal on unmodified 6's). You can even chuck strength of the primarch on there for an additional +1 strength and unmodified wound rolls of 6, since you're already fishing for those, double the damage characteristic.

Again, is it competitive? Maybe not, but he's actually pretty darn good at cutting up a lot of different types of units even without stratagem buffs.



#1395
Frater Antodeniel

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One thing for sure, the Salamanders do have the rules that depict their fabled resilient constitution and craftmanship.

 

Between the Miraculous Constitution and Forge Master traits (Which you can both have thanks to the Stratagem "Exemplar of the Promethean Creed") , plus the Salamanders relics and special issue wargear, not to mention the stratagem, most notably "Rise from the Ashes". It look like it will be pretty difficult to remove a Salamander Character from the battlefield.

 

Only thing that GW misses with this supplement, is the proper addition/recognition of the Salamanders successor chapters, like the, Black Dragons, Storm Giants (cited but not fully recognised), Fire Lords, Star Dragons, and Silver Drakes, most notably. (Star Dragon and Silver Drakes seems related by name, while the three firsts of the list are hinted successors by official fluff.)


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"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon. That is the difference between I and you."

 

++ Rorschak, First Blade of the Knights of Blood during his Forum Judicium Trial in 849.M40 following the chapter excommunication by the High Lords of Terra ++

 

 


#1396
Gederas

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One thing for sure, the Salamanders do have the rules that depict their fabled resilient constitution and craftmanship.

 

Between the Miraculous Constitution and Forge Master traits (Which you can both have thanks to the Stratagem "Exemplar of the Promethean Creed") , plus the Salamanders relics and special issue wargear, not to mention the stratagem, most notably "Rise from the Ashes". It look like it will be pretty difficult to remove a Salamander Character from the battlefield.

 

Only thing that GW misses with this supplement, is the proper addition/recognition of the Salamanders successor chapters, like the, Black Dragons, Storm Giants (cited but not fully recognised), Fire Lords, Star Dragons, and Silver Drakes, most notably. (Star Dragon and Silver Drakes seems related by name, while the three firsts of the list are hinted successors by official fluff.)

Well, Fire Lords are Imperial Fists successors, that's why they're not mentioned (see: Space Marine Battles novel Legion of the Damned)



#1397
Frater Antodeniel

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One thing for sure, the Salamanders do have the rules that depict their fabled resilient constitution and craftmanship.

 

Between the Miraculous Constitution and Forge Master traits (Which you can both have thanks to the Stratagem "Exemplar of the Promethean Creed") , plus the Salamanders relics and special issue wargear, not to mention the stratagem, most notably "Rise from the Ashes". It look like it will be pretty difficult to remove a Salamander Character from the battlefield.

 

Only thing that GW misses with this supplement, is the proper addition/recognition of the Salamanders successor chapters, like the, Black Dragons, Storm Giants (cited but not fully recognised), Fire Lords, Star Dragons, and Silver Drakes, most notably. (Star Dragon and Silver Drakes seems related by name, while the three firsts of the list are hinted successors by official fluff.)

Well, Fire Lords are Imperial Fists successors, that's why they're not mentioned (see: Space Marine Battles novel Legion of the Damned)

 

 

Well, in the first and second edition of the Codex Space Marines 8th edition, in the Fire Lords description it is said :

 

"The Fire Lords take to the battlefield bearing a plethora of flamer weapons. Preceding their fiery assaults with barrages of incendiary missiles, they hurl themselves at the charred, bewildered foe even before the flames have had a chance to burn out. Their home world is Mundus Pyra, a planet far out on the Eastern Fringe, and they are known for the strange flame-craft they use in Chapter rituals, which many find reminiscent of the Salamanders."

 

Fluff Conflict in the essence^^.


"Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armageddon. That is the difference between I and you."

 

++ Rorschak, First Blade of the Knights of Blood during his Forum Judicium Trial in 849.M40 following the chapter excommunication by the High Lords of Terra ++

 

 


#1398
Gederas

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One thing for sure, the Salamanders do have the rules that depict their fabled resilient constitution and craftmanship.

 

Between the Miraculous Constitution and Forge Master traits (Which you can both have thanks to the Stratagem "Exemplar of the Promethean Creed") , plus the Salamanders relics and special issue wargear, not to mention the stratagem, most notably "Rise from the Ashes". It look like it will be pretty difficult to remove a Salamander Character from the battlefield.

 

Only thing that GW misses with this supplement, is the proper addition/recognition of the Salamanders successor chapters, like the, Black Dragons, Storm Giants (cited but not fully recognised), Fire Lords, Star Dragons, and Silver Drakes, most notably. (Star Dragon and Silver Drakes seems related by name, while the three firsts of the list are hinted successors by official fluff.)

Well, Fire Lords are Imperial Fists successors, that's why they're not mentioned (see: Space Marine Battles novel Legion of the Damned)

Well, in the first and second edition of the Codex Space Marines 8th edition, in the Fire Lords description it is said :

 

"The Fire Lords take to the battlefield bearing a plethora of flamer weapons. Preceding their fiery assaults with barrages of incendiary missiles, they hurl themselves at the charred, bewildered foe even before the flames have had a chance to burn out. Their home world is Mundus Pyra, a planet far out on the Eastern Fringe, and they are known for the strange flame-craft they use in Chapter rituals, which many find reminiscent of the Salamanders."

 

Fluff Conflict in the essence^^.

Not really. They use similar tactics. That doesn't mean they're a potentially unknown successor. If that was the case, any marine chapter with a preference for close-combat would be a Blood Angels successor.



#1399
wildweasel

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Not really. There’s a thousand Space Marine Chapters at any given point, all using the same overall types of wargear. Some folks going “these guys like flamers, sort of reminds me of those Salamander dudes” doesn’t make them Salamander Successors. Which many Successors do he’s closer to their progenitor than not, there’s plenty of them that are just something else entirely.

#1400
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Not really. There’s a thousand Space Marine Chapters at any given point, all using the same overall types of wargear. Some folks going “these guys like flamers, sort of reminds me of those Salamander dudes” doesn’t make them Salamander Successors. Which many Successors do he’s closer to their progenitor than not, there’s plenty of them that are just something else entirely.

Well, flamers and a flame motif.

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.





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