Starting with Astra Militarum?

[Nephran]

Hi there

 

As the title suggest, I’m thinking about starting an Astra Militarum Army but there are a few points which I’d like to ask first.

 

 

As a little introduction:

 

Two of my close friends and I started with Warhammer quite after the release of 8th edition. I choose Grey Knights, my friends went with Necrons and Orks. Sadly, I either can’t play Grey Knights at all or they’re really that weak. (Short: Necron; spam mortal wounds in the movement phase, Ork; too much board control and GK dies easy to Ork shooting). We’re all not ultra-competitive players but (at least we try) we’re above a “just casual” level.

 

I also tried to start with T’au – we had nice and close games, but It did not feel right. It felt like I’m betraying the emperor and turn into one of these Xenos scums!

So It kind of has to be imperium, doesn’t it? And besides an own Space Marine Chapter, Astra Militarum seems the only option for me.

 

 

So what I actually would like to know:

• How do you play Astra Militarum? (There is obviously “the gun line” – but I’m sure there are several variations of it and there’s probably also other playstyles (which might be not so viable?), I’m more asking for what strategies you could aim.
• What is like a “must have” for a 1750-2000 army list? And how would you expand those to bring some variation on the table?
• What do you do with scions? (tactical wise) how are their kits; can you equip every guy with plasma out of the box?

Additional information:

• I’ll mainly play against Necrons and Orks, so tactics specialized against those two armies are very appreciated, but I’d also love to test out local tournaments (what I didn’t dare to do with my GK)!
• Model wise I like tanks in general and so the Baneblades but also love the Valkyries a lot. It would be nice to include them in halfway competitive lists
• I’d like the idea of pressuring with infantry supported by artillery fire – I think that’s quite a competitive strategy, isn’t it? (But might get boring after a few games?)
• I already own an (unpainted, but magnetized) imperial knight. The knight will see the table for sure. Unlike with GK I’d have CPs to pump into the knight.
• Time is my more limiting resource, not Money! I’d also look into painting services to speed the whole process up. Anyone good experiences?
• IF I’m going Astra Militarum, I’ll probably buy Death Korps for infantry and give it a german-ish look

 

Regards

Nephran

[WarriorFish]

GK are unloved by GW currently, which about sums it up... they can do fine for more casual games but will struggle elsewhere. Fortunately for Guard the current codex is solid and 8th favours numbers, so the lack of love elsewhere isn't too big of a deal

 

For your general points; Guard play in different ways, there's a lot more diversity than you may think. While standing and shooting is one any army can do that, and 8th requires mobility especially for the more dynamic missions! Redundancy and numbers are what sees Guard through, backed up with lots of guns

 

There's no real must haves, further than Guardsmen! You'll need more than a few squads to form a bulwark against the enemy as they don't last too long, fortunately they're cheap enough Scions are a great tool for a Guard army in adding some deployment shenanigans as they can drop in where they're least expected to cause mischief, or reinforce a beleaguered line. A small squad or two of Scions in the right place can make a big difference

 

If you want to know how to deal with those two armies then volume of fire is mostly what you need. Will help handle the numbers of greenskins, and punch through the toaster's fancy save stuff. An artillery company is quite good, but also pretty static but the good thing about Guard is that it's very easy to branch out to other army types once you have your core For example substituting the artillery for Leman Russ tanks.

 

Valkyries have a place, though generally better as transports rather than gunships. Guard have great Fast Attack choices like Sentinels and Hellhounds (the latter in particular, as this would be good against your chosen foes).

 

As to models, the Krieg ones are great but you will be paying more for them so be sure to go in eyes open. You can mix and match easily enough if you want (combined regiments are a thing), which is one of the best things about Guard; if you want to do it, the background almost certainly supports it

 

Don't forget pictures for when you get started

[Pioantom]

Just a few ideas I had while reading your post!

 

If you want to take the fight to the I'd recommend a large squad of Bullgryn with mauls and shields. Charging in a bunch of those guys in with a priest to buff is a very satisfying experience!

 

Guard is great at indirect fire. 3 squads of heavy weapons teams kitted out with mortars can put the hurt on some orcs! Basilisks will also put a dent in larger stuff.

 

As for Tempestus, you only get one plasma gun per 5 guys and it's very mono-pose so maybe check out some bits dealers or a 3rd party company. I either run them in a bare bones 5 man squad to drop in there back field to grab that objective or I'll kit them out as a 10 man squad with 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on the sargent and then a command squad of 4 more plasma, topped off with a Prime w/baton for 2 orders. It's expensive and they will probably die the next turn but that's 17 overcharged plasma rerolling ones not to mention the hotshot lasguns are AP -2.

Also grab Yarrick! Not only is his fluff amazing but he gives you full rerolls against works and reroll ones vs. everything else.

 

Hope so of this helps and welcome to the guard!

[HallofStovokor]

Those are difficult questions to answer, mainly because each regiment plays very differently from the other. The one thing that all regiments have in common is that you're going to need a lot of troops. Any match at 1000+ points requires 6 infantry squads to be reasonably competitive. Guard mobility is actually quite good. An infantry squad can advance twice in a turn with the move, move, move order. Here's a brief summary of each regiments playstyle:

 

Catachan- tanks, artillery, and melee focused infantry. The want to move up and overwhelm other infantry in melee, while big guns destroy the enemy offensive capabilities.

 

Cadia- Very good at dealing long range damage. They get an army wide reroll 1s as long as they didn't move. They're good at killing the enemy at range and controlling the board in the late game.

 

Valhalla- They're an attrition based army. They have tanks that count as double wounds characteristics for damage brackets and can bring fearless troops with the relic bolt pistol.

 

Vostroyans- all guns get an extra 6" to range. They play similarly to Cadians.

 

Steel legion- they're all about transports ferrying infantry onto objectives.

 

Mordian Iron Guard- they get bonuses for being in base contact. Essentially they get +1 BS in overwatch and +1 Ld. The also goes for tanks in overwatch. They used to have the best mortar teams, but volley fire was nerfed hard. They have a special order to target characters with lasguns.

 

Tallarn- these guys are constantly moving. Infantry can advance with no shooting penalty. Vehicles don't receive penalties ro moving with heavy weapons. They can deepstrike 3 units, but only 1 can be a vehicle.

 

Scion- best armor save for infantry, entire army has deepstrike rule, and has a 3+ BS. Officers only get 1 order unless you pay for an upgrade and you get no tank, HWTs, artillery or fast attack choices. They're best used to assist other regiments because they can be included in a detachment without upsetting regimental doctrines.

 

DKoK- Immune to morale from shooting, most unique models, expensive both in $ and points. They look cool, but have a completely different set of orders (not getting FRFSRF really hurts them). They're the only regiment that has roughrider (death riders) models you can still buy from GW (FW).They're technically an index option, so they might be relegated to warhammer legends.

[Exilyth]

Welcome to the imperial guard Astra Militarum!

 

The frater already told you a bit about tactics, so I'll say a few things about the collecting & building aspects of AM.

 

A good kit to start out with is the start collecting box - while the lord comissar is best demoted to a comissar, the infantry & tank are solid: The infantry squad is a core unit, the heavy weapon squad provides a choice of heavy weapons for more firepower and the leman russ battle tank brings high toughness & heavy ordnance to the table.

 

If you would like to take larger steps in building your army, the cadian and/or catachan defense force kit is a good deal.

 

Going from there,

• many people like to run a leman russ punisher in their army for anti-horde dakka. This is a different kit from the 'normal' leman russ.
• ogryns and a ministorum priest are a staple if you want to do meelee with guard. Most other guard units are not very good at meelee.
• the basilisk and manticore are nice for indirect anti tank fire
• sentinels are heavy weapons teams on stilts which sit in the fast attack instead of the heavy support slot. They're a bit squishy, but can help screen/tarpit. Scout sentinels can infiltrate, which can help put pressure on an enemy.
• the hellhound is fast, has a long ranged flamer and can explode violently when destroyed, making it a priority target for most enemies.
• chimeras are a bit weak this edition - they're still good transports and relatively cheap additional firepower. More of an advanced unit as you need to skip them or go all in on them.
• infantry squad + heavy weapons squad/team + 60mm bases = much more heavy weapon squads if you model one of the guardsmen on the heavy weapon squad base as a standing/lying spotter
• the command squad is a great source of bits and one of the few sources for plasma guns.
• magnets are usefull for all tank kits, especially the baneblade which can be build as one of 8(!) variants.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Exilyth

[WarriorFish]

Welcome to the imperial guard Astra Militarum!

[rcoon]

Tank Commanders are flavour of the month right now. Aside from getting yourself 60-80 Cadian Troops and a couple of Company Commanders. Fill your ranks with Tank Commanders, and then drop some points on some flex slots like Basilisks, Bullgryns with a mix of Slab and Brute shields, a priest to buff said Bullgryn, and perhaps some Hellhounds (you can convert the INFINITELY CHEAPER Chimeras into Hellhounds very easily and for far FAR less than GW charges for the right to play Hellhounds).

Catachan flavour troops are great with Colonel Iron Hand Straken thrown in, it makes charging your troop bubble wrap all the more unpleasant for your opponents. I tend to run a Catachan Battalion with Hellhounds and troops, and then a Cadian Battalion of troops and artillery with the Vigilus Defiant Artillery for my Basilisks to Overlapping Fields of Fire+Double shot and watch my opponents backline armour crumble.

[Exilyth]

(image removed to save space)

According to administratum regulations, copyrightable names are mandatory for all non-expendable personel, organisational units and equipment nowadays.

 

Say, didn't you hear what happened to trooper Jenkins? Poor guy got send to retrieve used lasguns from the wall of martyrs for calling a primaris lieutnant from the honorable Adeptus Astartes a 'big space marine with a pointy finger'. That, and he used an issue of the regimental standard to illustrate just how big that finger was.

 

But let's not occupy ourselves with such hearsay and trivialities - the enemies of the emperor are many and (most of them) won't kill themselves.

So, back to topic:

 

 

Most guard forces consist of a core of infantry to screen against enemy attempts to reach our vehicles & support characters. This will mostly be infantry squads, but the occasional blob of conscripts is known to join the good cause. Both use the same models and have similar rules.

 

Infantry squads are 10 models and can squad into a blob using stratagems. They can also take a special and/or heavy weapon. One way to look at them is 8 extra wounds for a heavy weapons team or 9 extra wounds for a special weapon - most tournament lists use them bare bones though.

 

Conscripts can be up to 30 models strong and were popular before they got nerfed - still usefull as a tarpit/murderblob when supported by e.g. a priest and/or colonel straken, but feeding infantry squads to an enemy is more effective.

 

Add in other infantry like heavy weapon squads, special weapon squads, veterans (infantry squads w/more options and better ballistic skill), ... and you have the guard archetype known as infantry horde. While drowning the enemy in bodies is typical for guard, such a list will lack in heavy firepower.

 

 

The detachments of 8th edition allow us to skip troops altogether - which brings us to another archetype: the tank company. This 'go to' for all threadheads is consisting mostly of tank commanders, leman russ tanks and some support vehicles - this type of list does not bring any infantry (or only a few squads in transports). This makes such a list vulnerable to deepstrike and/or turn 1 charges - tanks tied up in meelee can't shoot. (A special type of tank company is the artillery company, which consists of artillery vehicles instead of tanks).

 

 

Thus we get to the most common archetype of guard: combined arms armies tend to bring infantry as a screen and supplement it with some heavy firepower from tanks and/or artillery. (A special type of combined arms army is the mechanized company which has all infantry units riding in transport vehicles. Another is air cavalry which uses flyers as transports).

 

 

All of the above builds are viable in your average kitchen table resp. casual FLGS game. Which of the archetypes is strongest depends a lot on your local meta - e.g. ITC tends to have mostly the combined arms lists supporting a knight (and not many chimeras), while ETC saw a mechanized pure guard list taking objectives with chimeras reach a top place.

 

 

edit: I feel I should mention - veterans are unfortunably weaker this edition. Still a fluffy unit with loads of options though.

 

edit2: do note that the archetypes can be used at various levels of army organisation, e.g. a combined arms army could consist of e.g. a tank company detachment, infantry horde detachment and artillery company detachment.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Exilyth

[HallofStovokor]

Tank Commanders are flavour of the month right now. Aside from getting yourself 60-80 Cadian Troops and a couple of Company Commanders. Fill your ranks with Tank Commanders, and then drop some points on some flex slots like Basilisks, Bullgryns with a mix of Slab and Brute shields, a priest to buff said Bullgryn, and perhaps some Hellhounds (you can convert the INFINITELY CHEAPER Chimeras into Hellhounds very easily and for far FAR less than GW charges for the right to play Hellhounds).

Catachan flavour troops are great with Colonel Iron Hand Straken thrown in, it makes charging your troop bubble wrap all the more unpleasant for your opponents. I tend to run a Catachan Battalion with Hellhounds and troops, and then a Cadian Battalion of troops and artillery with the Vigilus Defiant Artillery for my Basilisks to Overlapping Fields of Fire+Double shot and watch my opponents backline armour crumble.

 

catachan artillery is pretty good too. They reroll number of shots. Rerolling 1s to hit is nice, but that can be mimicked with Harker or a Master of Ordinance. Overlapping fields of fire on the other hand is nice too. Honestly, a strong player can win with either choice of regiments. I will admit that my Cadians bring a lot of pain with:

 

2 CC, lord Creed, 3 basilisks, 2 mortar squads, 9 infantry squads (3 with anti-tank heavy weapons), 2 lord commissars, a 5 man Bullgryn squad, ogryn bodyguard, astropath, Ministorum Priest, tech-priest, and 3 tank commanders (punisher, executioner, and battle cannon).

[STTAB]

I also started in 8th with Grey Knights (statistically 2nd worst army right now and worst for the last year), then I built a Dark Angels Ravenwing focused army that’s a lot of fun (currently statistically worst army). Guard is a lot of fun, especially Catachan for the close combat.

 

In good preforming lists there is a lot of variation but you will see a lot the Vigilus formations, particularly the tank and artillery ones but I highly rate all the guard ones and use the Assault company and drop force regularly. Building around 2 or 3 of the vigilus detachments is a good start.

[HallofStovokor]

I also started in 8th with Grey Knights (statistically 2nd worst army right now and worst for the last year), then I built a Dark Angels Ravenwing focused army that’s a lot of fun (currently statistically worst army). Guard is a lot of fun, especially Catachan for the close combat.

 

In good preforming lists there is a lot of variation but you will see a lot the Vigilus formations, particularly the tank and artillery ones but I highly rate all the guard ones and use the Assault company and drop force regularly. Building around 2 or 3 of the vigilus detachments is a good start.

That's true. None of the guard vigilus detachments are bad. The ones I like the least are the drop troops and Blade detachments. I don't particularly like chimeras or scions. I wished that bullgryns got included into the conclave detachment, but it's still a good detachment, especially for catachan.

[Nephran]

Thank you so much for your answers!

 

 

2 CC, lord Creed, 3 basilisks, 2 mortar squads, 9 infantry squads (3 with anti-tank heavy weapons), 2 lord commissars, a 5 man Bullgryn squad, ogryn bodyguard, astropath, Ministorum Priest, tech-priest, and 3 tank commanders (punisher, executioner, and battle cannon).

 

 

this comes quite close to what I had in mind to start with! Altough I'm not yet very sure about the HQ and buffing characters (I asume Yarrick is an auto include against orkz). -> "how much orders are enough?" :)

 

• Also no one mentioned any kind of baneblade which worries me a bit. Are they not viable at all? (Might a stormlord do it's job as mower against horde?)
• I'm thinking about bringing 1-3 valkyres  to transport a bunch of bulgryins & characters
• do DKoK have an official (faq-ed?) entry in the codex? oO I thought they just have quite bad fw rules...? -> Anyway I just want to go for their style and kind of build my own regiment. (that way I can swap between whatever regiment I want to test out. right now the valhallan, fire at my command, sounds very nice against orkz, and probably also fits to deathkorps and bases will be winter themed anyway :) )
• The Scion's situation with the plasmas doen't sound very nice... do you think I'd get away with using a sm devastor squad as scions?!

So far I just bought a single demolisher kit. but I just primed it, it's not worth sharing pictures yet... I'd like to try a "steel-koloss" look, but I fear it might look boring... if that's the case I'd just go for a winter camo and a bit of weathering

 

Regards

Neph

[duz_]

Baneblades are in a much better place than last edition, however they aren't as competitive now with Knights floating around but I do like my shadowsword

If they were a little cheaper you'd probably see them more again

They're expensive and you really need a psyker to cast the -1 to hit on it. Don't expect it to last beyond turn 2 though

 

You probably won't be able to proxy space Marines as Scions...

 

If you like the DKoK aesthetic maybe look at some 3rd party vendors for cheaper alternatives?

[Exilyth]

Also no one mentioned any kind of baneblade which worries me a bit. Are they not viable at all? (Might a stormlord do it's job as mower against horde?)

Baneblades put a lot of eggs/points into a single basket. They're in a bit of a similar situation to e.g. Land Raiders for space marines at the moment: They exist and they do their job just fine, but other units like knights do similar things better.

 

The stormlord is pretty much the dakka & transport variant of the baneblade - it would be good vs. hordes and can protect e.g. some heavy weapons teams from enemy fire for a turn or more and they can still shoot out.

 

I would second the 'it needs some support by psykers' though.

I'm thinking about bringing 1-3 valkyres  to transport a bunch of bulgryins & characters

Most tournament armies just walk a single big blob of ogryn across the table, but dropping them in your enemies face works too.

do DKoK have an official (faq-ed?) entry in the codex?

afaik, DKoK still use rules from 'imperial armour - index: forces of the imperial guard'. The FAQ/errata for that (and other) publication(s) is available at https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

The Scion's situation with the plasmas doen't sound very nice... do you think I'd get away with using a sm devastor squad as scions?!

The scions have 1 plasma gun, the command squad has 1 plasma gun and there's that old metal special weapon blister with a melta gunner and plasma gunner. TL;DR: plasma guns are scarce in guard kits. Some people convert them by combining a plasma pistol with a lasgun. Some use the 5x plasma gun blister from space marines. Some build their own or use plasma weapons from other kits. Others use 3rd party bits.

 

Whether or not you get away with proxying sm devs as scions depends on the other players in your group - you'll have to ask them.

[STTAB]

Anvil industries do some pretty nice arms and plasma that fit with the scions aesthetic. My scions are Van Saar bodies with scion beret heads. My guard are also lightly converted from Van Saar too. Worth considering some of the Necromunda kits if you’ve not started yet.

 

If your dead set on the Valks, go for it, you can make it work but the Grav Chute rule has been FAQd so you can’t move after grav chute insertion now but you can charge but you have to make a 9” charge. For my next tournament i’m Running a scion drop force battalion with 2 valks and a Vostroyan battalion with 2 tank commanders (1 relic battle cannon, 1 all plasma) and a vulture. There is a lot of cool stuff you can do with the guard flyers.

[GuardDaddy]

Tactics wise I would just add that infantry squads are incredible beyond just being a screen for tanks/guns due to orders. Orders are what make guard great. You will increasingly see infantry used aggressively for board control.

 

Hobby wise the fact guard are simply standard guys and gals opens up huge modelling potential. As beyond plastic Cadian's we rely on metal models you see lots of customisation. As human scale lots of WW2 kits can be crossed in easily. Have a look at some of the regiment WIP threads on these boards - some are 3d works of art.

[Nephran]

Hi again

 

So since my original post I think a know how I'd start building my army and how to extend.

(60 Infantry, 3Tankcommanders, 3 Basiliks, some (2x3?) Mortars, Yarrick and other HQs, extending with More Infantry, Bulgryns, Baneblade and figuring out how to make it work with Valks)

 

A big Question which is still open, but also very hard to phrase: "how does the army play?"

Obviously that would be answered best by just playing it, but that would cost me quite some money and a lot of time^^

I'm kind of asking what tactics or plays are you doing? How does an average game look like? how do you play against your favourit enemys, how against your arch enemies? What are your plays if a melee army finally gets into close combat?

 

 

As a little tease:

 

I built a punisher and tried out how to get a cool "germanish steel colossus" look:

I quite like the result even though there are a bunch things I can improve and some details aren't done yet (e.g. the lamp, some dirt)

Decal foils are ordered to do at home, what you see right now this is just wtaer-ed on paper (A slightly better fitting sizing already exists).

 

 

If you give me cool answers I'll update with first DKoK infantry which just arrived the other day!

 

Regards

Neph

 

 

 

[GuardDaddy]

That looks really good - hint of metal coming through is great

[WarriorFish]

Tank looks good, I'd probably not put the fancy on the gun bit though as it looks a bit strange and will no doubt soon come off after some games. A bit of colour would help break it up, the classic stripes are always useful in this regard - maybe white and/or red ones on the turret?

 

As to how the army plays as mentioned a lot depends on how you build your list, but if we're to assume a more "classic" Guard army - that is to say a bit of most things - then that's a good starting point as it covers most other armies at least to a degree. In your more traditional army you'll have some tanks, maybe supplemented with some artillery. Some recon elements like Sentinels and Hellhounds to provide bonus mobility and fire power, perhaps some counter assault too. Oh, and lots of Infantry Squads. Lots

 

Guard infantry are cheap which is just as well as they don't have much output. Orders help a lot to give them some diverse options so they can throw some extra dice at problems, or scurry towards an objective - but what they mostly do is hold the line. Both in the traditional sense, but also in ranging forwards to keep the enemy back (especially against assault foes).

 

With your troopers holding the tides back this leaves your big guns free to do what they do best, and crush the enemy beneath countless shells! Whether from tank or artillery this ordnance will level the playing field... and the table Guard is one of the best armies for the combined arms approve, not just because they can do it well but also because it's essential to win

 

This is how your typical game will play out; add in good target selection and movement management along with judicious use of Stratagems and you'll be well on your way to victory Last but not least never forget to play the objectives, even if dropping the Emperor's Hammer on your opponent's entire army is always a win condition