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Iron Hands Weaknesses

- - - - - Iron Hands Chapter

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#1
MeltaRange

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...besides the flesh, of course.
 
**This is not a troll thread.**
 
Now that the supplement is out there on the internet, I'm interested if people have started thinking about counter tactics.  I for one, can't see one.  I've got a feeling that these guys are going to be the go-to SM army seen in any kind of competitive environment, so going under that assumption, what is their weakness?
  • They have arguably the best doctrine enhancement, and it starts from Turn 1 unlike everything else we've seen.
  • They have the BEST resilience, period, both on Infantry and especially Vehicles.
  • They have the ability to deploy and play outside of the auras that often pigeonhole marine armies into a "roaming death ball", and thus have arguably the best ability to control the board.
  • They have underrated mobility, especially when you consider IH have the best Land Speeders, and all the "Rhino SPC" vehicles move 12" and don't get a penalty for moving and don't need to remain near a Captain.
  • They have the best special character we've seen point for point that synergizes perfectly with everything they do just by standing there.
  • They have the best anti-psyker ability we've seen yet.
  • Their exceptional rules aren't really tied to CP as much as some of the other chapters (cough White Scars cough) who basically need to run a double battalion/brigade to use their abilities, whereas the IH get them basically passive thru relics and standard abilities.  Meaning, they will be able to spend points on things like more Executioners.  Plus, they have the best CP generation relic of any SM chapter.
  • They have the best Overwatch of anything except Tau (can even hit on 4+ which is just WOW)
  • They have the best healing out there, especially for vehicles.
I'm struggling to find a weakness, anyone have a take on them?
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#2
Closet Skeleton

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Haywire and focusing down one vehicle at a time.

 

Tagging their gunline in combat.

 

Likely reliance on either T7 or low model count.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 16 September 2019 - 04:07 PM.

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#3
emperorpants

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They can also take a relic that generates cp so they won't be as cp thirsty as other armies, they also are tacticaly flexible with a better strat then the ultras for changing doctrines on a unit, they have great psychic defense as they have a strat that is better than the black templars one to shut down psychic, they hit on 5s in overwatch and will likely have alot of tanks that can fly so they can't be easily shut down in melee, and they also have savior protocols so sniping them is going to be super hard as well. Yeah. As far as I can see, they have no weaknesses while also being either the best or great at every other facet of the game. Not really sure how other chapters are supposed to compete, let alone non marine armies. I know everyone wants to wait till the other supplements are released, but Iron hands blow ultras out of the water at literally everything, including being a flexible army, they are much better than WS and much better than RG. They crush every other supplement so far by a comical amount. I'm not really seeing how this isn't going to change the meta and also be oppressive as gak in casual games.

Haywire and focusing down one vehicle at a time.

Tagging their gunline in combat.


They can use the ignore mortal wounds strat for haywire and tagging their gunline won't help much when you are tagging chaff or maybe intercessors. Tag their executioners all you want, they will fall back and shoot you off the table with the fly keyword.
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#4
Closet Skeleton

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Iron hands won't have much in the way of chaff. Marine vehicles still aren't efficient unless they're little dreads.

 

Executioners are good but it remains to be seen if they'll be what the meta settles on. None of the Power of the Machine Spirit vehicles even benefit that much from Iron Hands.

 

If the meta can handle knights it can handle 16W invulnerable saveless tanks. I wouldn't be surprised if the meta goes in a Leviathan direction instead.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 16 September 2019 - 04:20 PM.


#5
emperorpants

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Iron hands won't have much in the way of chaff. Marine vehicles still aren't efficient unless they're little dreads.

 

Executioners are good but it remains to be seen if they'll be what the meta settles on. None of the Power of the Machine Spirit vehicles even benefit that much from Iron Hands.

None of the power of machine spirit vehicles benefit from a 6 up feel no pain, hitting on 5s in overwatch, a 5 up invuln, a bs of 2 and re rolling ones, a negative 1 to damage, or being healed up to 9 wounds, or doubling wounds for the purpose of wounds tables?   Are.....you serious here?

 

Also, scouts are cheap.  They really are.  intercessors less so, but can screen well enough if you need them to.  Tying up iron hands in melee is going to be quite tough.


Edited by emperorpants, 16 September 2019 - 05:57 PM.


#6
MeltaRange

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Haywire and focusing down one vehicle at a time.

 

Tagging their gunline in combat.

 

Likely reliance on either T7 or low model count.

 

Solid points, though I think there are holes to be poked in each of these.  A competitive and well designed IH army is not going to have a hard time mitigating these.



#7
Happy-inquisitor

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In a way looking through the new Iron Hands rules feels a lot like when I first went to make a competitive Tau list. First impression is that wow I have an answer for everything in this codex. Then I try to put lists together and they don't all fit.

 

From the first few excited list attempts I have seen so far it may be much the same here. Iron Hands have a tool for every job but it is hard to fit it all into one list that actually functions well on the table. So we can have abstract discussions about how Iron Hands have a way to beat X where X is literally any suggestion we could make - but in a real game against a real list we may find that what we face did not bring that counter so X actually works just fine.

 

I believe that Iron Hands are going to be really good. I am fairly confident that some good players will come up with lists that have credible answers to all of the current top meta lists using Iron Hands - but that does not mean that they will be unbeatable or even that a credible answer is the same as getting a reliable win against those other top lists.


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#8
Xerxus

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Iron Hands are paying an opportunity cost of lacking some of the nifty stratagems, warlord traits etc that others have. For instance, White Scars have the ability to move a transport and then disembark. They and the Raven Guard can deepstrike units. Raven Guard have a plethora of movement and deployment tricks. Ultramarines can redeploy units before the game begins. All three of the above have ways to do a fallback and shoot+charge.

 

Iron Hands on the other hand are severely lacking in the shenanigans department. Basically they have one movement-related trick, which is the Student of History warlord trait.



#9
emperorpants

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In a way looking through the new Iron Hands rules feels a lot like when I first went to make a competitive Tau list. First impression is that wow I have an answer for everything in this codex. Then I try to put lists together and they don't all fit.

From the first few excited list attempts I have seen so far it may be much the same here. Iron Hands have a tool for every job but it is hard to fit it all into one list that actually functions well on the table. So we can have abstract discussions about how Iron Hands have a way to beat X where X is literally any suggestion we could make - but in a real game against a real list we may find that what we face did not bring that counter so X actually works just fine.

I believe that Iron Hands are going to be really good. I am fairly confident that some good players will come up with lists that have credible answers to all of the current top meta lists using Iron Hands - but that does not mean that they will be unbeatable or even that a credible answer is the same as getting a reliable win against those other top lists.

The thing is, these answers they have to things, many of them are innate chapter tactics, strats, and a relic or two. Most of that is going to be included in your army already so they won't have to work hard at all to bring all the tools they need to the table. The forge father is an auto include. The dude is only 110 points and adds an incredible amount to your army. You get one relic for free which will obviously be the -1 damage relic. So I guess I don't see how it will be hard to include all the crazy stuff in one army. As long as you take the forge father and free -1 damage relic you get the awesome chapter tactics, the awesome super doctrine, all the amazing strats, a 5 up feel no pain, giving a unit a 2 up bs, etc. It's not hard at all to include the whole toolset. Just make sure one of your HQs is a psychic and you're golden. Not much of a tax at all. Heck, you don't even need a captain really with the free re rolls of 1. The only real tax might be an extra cp for the relic that generates cp, which will obviously pay for itself quite easily.

Iron Hands are paying an opportunity cost of lacking some of the nifty stratagems, warlord traits etc that others have. For instance, White Scars have the ability to move a transport and then disembark. They and the Raven Guard can deepstrike units. Raven Guard have a plethora of movement and deployment tricks. Ultramarines can redeploy units before the game begins. All three of the above have ways to do a fallback and shoot+charge.

Iron Hands on the other hand are severely lacking in the shenanigans department. Basically they have one movement-related trick, which is the Student of History warlord trait.


Actually, I would argue that not needing to castle right from turn one is a better movement trick than redeploying a few units. Also, if you want to move a transport and then disembark and still move get an impulsor. Raven guard can deepstrike more, but again, being able to move without worrying about keeping your units in a 6 inch bubble for re rolls is huge. Right from turn 1 too. Stalker bolt rifle iron hands are going to eat other marines alive, and flyers that ignore movement penalties, hit on twos and re roll ones without a captain are going to crush things. That is again, a pretty nice and flexible movement trick

Edited by Brother Tyler, 17 September 2019 - 01:32 PM.

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#10
Lemondish

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Iron hands won't have much in the way of chaff. Marine vehicles still aren't efficient unless they're little dreads.

Executioners are good but it remains to be seen if they'll be what the meta settles on. None of the Power of the Machine Spirit vehicles even benefit that much from Iron Hands.

Non of the power of machine spirit vehicles benefit from a 6 up feel no pain, hitting on 5s in overwatch, a 5 up invuln, a bs of 2 and re rolling ones, a negative 1 to damage, or being healed up to 9 wounds, or doubling wounds for the purpose of wounds tables? Are.....you serious here?

Also, scouts are cheap. They really are. intercessors less so, but can screen well enough if you need them to. Trying up iron hands in melee is going to be quite tough.

Scouts may be cheap but they also die to a stiff breeze.

I have no concerns with containing and dismantling an IH death ball. They're not really that much more offensively capable that any other marine force and they can't both achieve mobility and all of their invincible durability tools all at once.

It'll be a game of baiting out the durability strats while focusing on objectives and prioritizing fire properly.

It'll be like going up against Knights, but in this case you'll not be facing a single unit with control over all it's buffs, but instead a collection of them. That makes it easier to dismantle the castle and reduce the threat.

#11
Xerxus

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Iron Hands are paying an opportunity cost of lacking some of the nifty stratagems, warlord traits etc that others have. For instance, White Scars have the ability to move a transport and then disembark. They and the Raven Guard can deepstrike units. Raven Guard have a plethora of movement and deployment tricks. Ultramarines can redeploy units before the game begins. All three of the above have ways to do a fallback and shoot+charge.

 

Iron Hands on the other hand are severely lacking in the shenanigans department. Basically they have one movement-related trick, which is the Student of History warlord trait.

 

Actually, I would argue that not needing to castle right from turn one is a better movement trick than redeploying a few units.  Also, if you want to move a transport and then disembark and still move get an impulsor.  Raven guard can deepstrike more, but again, being able to move without worrying about keeping your units in a 6 inch bubble for re rolls is huge.  Right from turn 1 too.  Stalker bolt rifle iron hands are going to eat other marines alive, and flyers that ignore movement penalties, hit on twos and re roll ones without a captain are going to crush things.  That is again, a pretty nice and flexible movement trick

 

 

Not by my definition of movement trick in this instance. I'm talking about moving and deploying units in circumstances where it usually is not allowed.


Edited by Xerxus, 16 September 2019 - 05:55 PM.


#12
emperorpants

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Iron Hands are paying an opportunity cost of lacking some of the nifty stratagems, warlord traits etc that others have. For instance, White Scars have the ability to move a transport and then disembark. They and the Raven Guard can deepstrike units. Raven Guard have a plethora of movement and deployment tricks. Ultramarines can redeploy units before the game begins. All three of the above have ways to do a fallback and shoot+charge.

 

Iron Hands on the other hand are severely lacking in the shenanigans department. Basically they have one movement-related trick, which is the Student of History warlord trait.

 

Actually, I would argue that not needing to castle right from turn one is a better movement trick than redeploying a few units.  Also, if you want to move a transport and then disembark and still move get an impulsor.  Raven guard can deepstrike more, but again, being able to move without worrying about keeping your units in a 6 inch bubble for re rolls is huge.  Right from turn 1 too.  Stalker bolt rifle iron hands are going to eat other marines alive, and flyers that ignore movement penalties, hit on twos and re roll ones without a captain are going to crush things.  That is again, a pretty nice and flexible movement trick

 

 

Not by my definition of movement trick in this instance. I'm talking about moving and deploying units in circumstances where it usually is not allowed.

 

Right, and I'm saying the Iron hands mobility in the areas that I mentioned are superior or on even grounds in overall game terms and usefulness as the tricks you mentioned.



#13
Xerxus

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Perhaps, but that is beside the point. It is a weakness to lack those options.



#14
emperorpants

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Iron hands won't have much in the way of chaff. Marine vehicles still aren't efficient unless they're little dreads.

Executioners are good but it remains to be seen if they'll be what the meta settles on. None of the Power of the Machine Spirit vehicles even benefit that much from Iron Hands.

Non of the power of machine spirit vehicles benefit from a 6 up feel no pain, hitting on 5s in overwatch, a 5 up invuln, a bs of 2 and re rolling ones, a negative 1 to damage, or being healed up to 9 wounds, or doubling wounds for the purpose of wounds tables? Are.....you serious here?

Also, scouts are cheap. They really are. intercessors less so, but can screen well enough if you need them to. Trying up iron hands in melee is going to be quite tough.

Scouts may be cheap but they also die to a stiff breeze.

I have no concerns with containing and dismantling an IH death ball. They're not really that much more offensively capable that any other marine force and they can't both achieve mobility and all of their invincible durability tools all at once.

It'll be a game of baiting out the durability strats while focusing on objectives and prioritizing fire properly.

It'll be like going up against Knights, but in this case you'll not be facing a single unit with control over all it's buffs, but instead a collection of them. That makes it easier to dismantle the castle and reduce the threat.

 

 

See, the thing is, they are flexible enough that they don't even have to make a huge death ball.  Just a small one will suffice while the rest of the army tootles around the board enjoying no negatives to hit and and re rolling ones without a captain.  Also, the death ball will likely be executioners that can fall back and shoot and overwatch on 5s.  Maybe even with chapter master re rolls if the Iron hands player is feeling like not being charged.  So while the death ball isn't super mobile ususally the rest of the army certainly is.  The death ball can also be mobile if it really wants to be in a pinch.  Hooray for tactical flexibility!  Also, I think you might be underestimating an executioner with bs 2 re rolling ones with Lt support as well in dev doctrine.  That thing has all the dakka and a ton of anti-tank as well.  Also, what if there is a chappy who got off the plus one to wound litany on the executioner?  Hoo boy, that is going to wreck face on anything close in general, will mess things up hard in overwatch, and then will fall back and mess things up even harder.


Perhaps, but that is beside the point. It is a weakness to lack those options.

 

Not much of one at all, to be honest, if that weakness is mitigated by the factors I mentioned so well.  


Edited by emperorpants, 16 September 2019 - 06:14 PM.


#15
Happy-inquisitor

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The thing is, these answers they have to things, many of them are innate chapter tactics, strats, and a relic or two.  Most of that is going to be included in your army already so they won't have to work hard at all to bring all the tools they need to the table.  The forge father is an auto include.  The dude is only 110 points and adds an incredible amount to  your army.  You get one relic for free which will obviously be the -1 damage relic.  So I guess I don't see how it will be hard to include all the crazy stuff in one army.  As long as you take the forge father and free -1 damage relic you get the awesome chapter tactics, the awesome super doctrine, all the amazing strats, a 5 up feel no pain, giving a unit a 2 up bs, etc.  It's not hard at all to include the whole toolset.  Just make sure one of your HQs is a psychic and you're golden.  Not much of a tax at all.  Heck, you don't even need a captain really with the free re rolls of 1.  The only real tax might be an extra cp for the relic that generates cp, which will obviously pay for itself quite easily.

 

 

If all you do is bring the same mix of stuff as before and now its quite a bit better because of the new rules you will no longer get utterly crushed by the top tier lists - but you will quite likely still lose. Unless you are really maximising some of the advantages you have your list will simply not have the power to overturn those existing top table contenders. Naturally you can now really maximise some of those advantages but I do not see any lists being put forward that maximise all of them or which eliminate all the weaknesses.

 

Until I see someone come up with that list I will continue to think that Iron Hands are really powerful in general but that any given list will have its own weakness and be beatable.


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#16
emperorpants

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The thing is, these answers they have to things, many of them are innate chapter tactics, strats, and a relic or two.  Most of that is going to be included in your army already so they won't have to work hard at all to bring all the tools they need to the table.  The forge father is an auto include.  The dude is only 110 points and adds an incredible amount to  your army.  You get one relic for free which will obviously be the -1 damage relic.  So I guess I don't see how it will be hard to include all the crazy stuff in one army.  As long as you take the forge father and free -1 damage relic you get the awesome chapter tactics, the awesome super doctrine, all the amazing strats, a 5 up feel no pain, giving a unit a 2 up bs, etc.  It's not hard at all to include the whole toolset.  Just make sure one of your HQs is a psychic and you're golden.  Not much of a tax at all.  Heck, you don't even need a captain really with the free re rolls of 1.  The only real tax might be an extra cp for the relic that generates cp, which will obviously pay for itself quite easily.

 

 

If all you do is bring the same mix of stuff as before and now its quite a bit better because of the new rules you will no longer get utterly crushed by the top tier lists - but you will quite likely still lose. Unless you are really maximising some of the advantages you have your list will simply not have the power to overturn those existing top table contenders. Naturally you can now really maximise some of those advantages but I do not see any lists being put forward that maximise all of them or which eliminate all the weaknesses.

 

Until I see someone come up with that list I will continue to think that Iron Hands are really powerful in general but that any given list will have its own weakness and be beatable.

 

That really doesn't counter anything I said though.  My point, which I believe I illustrated alright, is that it isn't hard at all to bring most, and in many cases ALL, the iron hands toolset to the table due to the fact that a lot of it is strats which are always availale, chapter tactics (available to all units), an auto include character you'd have to be stupid not to take, and a relic that you get for free.  The only thing you might have to pay extra for or that you might not include anyway is the cp regen relic, which costs 1 cp and will refund itself, likely several times over.  You can take all of these things and still change your actual army make up quite significantly, so no, you doing this will not make you predictable and have you run the same things over and over.  Although there likely will be lists that are so strong that nothing can deal with them, in which case, competitive people certainly WILL run them over and over at no obvious disadvantage as of now.



#17
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very low count model army,

can be tarpited easily , (can be counter by including flyers)

almost mandatory hi rate of fire vehicles like redemptors or repulsors (both).

 

a dedicate multiwound army list can be problematic, even more if the IH player goes second


Edited by Rodrick, 16 September 2019 - 07:41 PM.


#18
emperorpants

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very low count model army,

can be tarpited easily , (can be counter by including flyers)

almost mandatory hi rate of fire vehicles like redemptors or repulsors (both).

 

a dedicate multiwound army list can be problematic, even more if the IH player goes second

Good point on the low model count army, but if those units are nigh unkillable and super killy themselves, it's not really that much of a weakness, in addition to the fact it won't be THAT much different model count wise versus other marines.  As you said, being tarpited is countered by flying tanks, screening units, and overwatch on 5s.  Not to mention that it is -2 to charge said flying tanks.  Redemptors and repulsor variants being almost mandatory (and I don't necessarily agree that they are) is not a bad thing at all, as they are amazing for iron hands.


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#19
MeltaRange

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The thing is, these answers they have to things, many of them are innate chapter tactics, strats, and a relic or two.  Most of that is going to be included in your army already so they won't have to work hard at all to bring all the tools they need to the table.  The forge father is an auto include.  The dude is only 110 points and adds an incredible amount to  your army.  You get one relic for free which will obviously be the -1 damage relic.  So I guess I don't see how it will be hard to include all the crazy stuff in one army.  As long as you take the forge father and free -1 damage relic you get the awesome chapter tactics, the awesome super doctrine, all the amazing strats, a 5 up feel no pain, giving a unit a 2 up bs, etc.  It's not hard at all to include the whole toolset.  Just make sure one of your HQs is a psychic and you're golden.  Not much of a tax at all.  Heck, you don't even need a captain really with the free re rolls of 1.  The only real tax might be an extra cp for the relic that generates cp, which will obviously pay for itself quite easily.

 

 

If all you do is bring the same mix of stuff as before and now its quite a bit better because of the new rules you will no longer get utterly crushed by the top tier lists - but you will quite likely still lose. Unless you are really maximising some of the advantages you have your list will simply not have the power to overturn those existing top table contenders. Naturally you can now really maximise some of those advantages but I do not see any lists being put forward that maximise all of them or which eliminate all the weaknesses.

 

Until I see someone come up with that list I will continue to think that Iron Hands are really powerful in general but that any given list will have its own weakness and be beatable.

 

That really doesn't counter anything I said though.  My point, which I believe I illustrated alright, is that it isn't hard at all to bring most, and in many cases ALL, the iron hands toolset to the table due to the fact that a lot of it is strats which are always availale, chapter tactics (available to all units), an auto include character you'd have to be stupid not to take, and a relic that you get for free.  The only thing you might have to pay extra for or that you might not include anyway is the cp regen relic, which costs 1 cp and will refund itself, likely several times over.  You can take all of these things and still change your actual army make up quite significantly, so no, you doing this will not make you predictable and have you run the same things over and over.  Although there likely will be lists that are so strong that nothing can deal with them, in which case, competitive people certainly WILL run them over and over at no obvious disadvantage as of now.

 

 

This is actually a good point.  IH stratagems are pretty much useful for every single unit.  Only a few of them have conditions on them, unlike WS or RG which have several unit/type specific Stratagems that force you to bring Bikes/Jump Packs to use effectively.


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#20
Rodrick

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very low count model army,

can be tarpited easily , (can be counter by including flyers)

almost mandatory hi rate of fire vehicles like redemptors or repulsors (both).

 

a dedicate multiwound army list can be problematic, even more if the IH player goes second

Good point on the low model count army, but if those units are nigh unkillable and super killy themselves, it's not really that much of a weakness, in addition to the fact it won't be THAT much different model count wise versus other marines.  As you said, being tarpited is countered by flying tanks, screening units, and overwatch on 5s.  Not to mention that it is -2 to charge said flying tanks.  Redemptors and repulsor variants being almost mandatory (and I don't necessarily agree that they are) is not a bad thing at all, as they are amazing for iron hands.

 

 

 

ITC and similar are won by holding objetives ,  thats why low model count is kinda a risk, but overall,  IH are so killy that most games opponent are gonna end with 1 or 3 models left


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#21
Juggernut

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Maybe playing some actual games against them will be involved? Not every Iron Hands player and every Iron Hands list is going to be the most feel-bad thing you've ever played against.

 

Don't really care about "competitive" play, TBH. One super-powerful thing/faction/combination is inevitably replaced by the next super-powerful thing/faction/combination.

 

I don't mean to diminish the actual theorycraft going on here, but let's maintain some perspective?


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#22
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Maybe playing some actual games against them will be involved? Not every Iron Hands player and every Iron Hands list is going to be the most feel-bad thing you've ever played against.

Don't really care about "competitive" play, TBH. One super-powerful thing/faction/combination is inevitably replaced by the next super-powerful thing/faction/combination.

I don't mean to diminish the actual theorycraft going on here, but let's maintain some perspective?

The thing is, as people have said, iron hands are very easy to make good. Their combos are very easy to see and set up. These easy combos are also very powerful. Do you not see where that leads? Casual games can get out of hand quick with such powerful combos that are easy to see and make. especially since non competitive players might not know how to deal with iron hands, or have the tools to do so, if anyone does. I get that you don't like the idea of iron hands being op, but sorry, given what we know, they kinda are. Yeah, we can wait till more games are played before we can say for sure if they are, but maybe make some points about weaknesses they might have instead of telling us to have perspective? Cuz as of now, there have been no significant weaknesses found.....which means a reasonable PERSPECTIVE might be that iron hands are indeed op. This is, afterall, a thread for discussing possible weaknesses. Ergo, you need to understand that people will discuss the validity of said weaknesses. I believe that myself and others have brought up valid counter points to things people perceive as weaknesses, which to me means they aren't real weaknesses. If you can refute points made by me or others by all means, do so. I'd be happy to be shown that iron hands aren't op. But if you can't, then maybe our perspective that iron hands are going to be op is correct. I mean no disrespect to you, so please don't take this as an attack on you, cuz it's not. I just find it odd to go in a thread about whether iron hands have weaknesses or not and then talk about how you don't care about competitive play while also telling us to get perspective without putting forth valid points to give said perspective. Again, I mean no disrespect at all. Also, if it turns out iron hands aren't op and cause no problems for the game I'll gladly eat my words and admit I was wrong and over reacted. But just compare them to every other supplement released. Can you honestly say they aren't much, MUCH stronger than the other supplements?

Edited by emperorpants, 16 September 2019 - 10:54 PM.

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#23
chapter master 454

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The Doctrine isn't the best doctrine. It is good but it has clear weakness and if we were going on application of a doctrine then Ultramarines would take that in spades, clubs, diamonds and even hearts. Their doctrine allows you to move and fire heavy weapons at full effect, no penalty along with allowing you to use double tap bolter for free at that point WITH a bonus AP1.

 

In regards to combos, Captain Dakka says hi.

 

Their relics certainly can make for a stiff captain smash but something people seem to keep forgetting is how to play all these new toys. So lets begin.

 

Iron Hands are slow. Shut up about being able to move and shoot heavy weapons for free on turn 1, if you are going gun heavy you ain't moving turn 1 and don't even try and kid on about it. If you are moving its because the opponent ducked out of LoS during deployment and just stole your turn 1 shooting. They aren't going to be moving far nor fast and if they are it will be in the flimsy land speeders. Not hard to remove (since they will lack any repair support nor have the wound count to rely on). Also I want to add that moving to shimmy over to get better LoS is rarely effective when you only have 6" move or can't ignore having to go through walls since your a tank! If you are moving FORWARD then I have to ask some serious questions because...I know we joke about driving closer so we can hit them with our swords but...at least then we are talking about swords...not the butt of our lascannons and heavy bolters!

They are fairly predictable too in that regard as you know the moment you hear Iron Hands you can be assured they want to gunline and shoot. The main thing to remember is if you are in a shooting contest with them, you are on even grounds if you have a captain backing you so no worries, not like templates are a thing anymore. People seem to think the auras we have are tiny...6" is miles if you actually position better, the main reason for castling tight is more to do with getting in the terrain piece, not auras (and EMPEROR DAMNIT Gregor...BALANCE ON THAT TOP FLOOR OR OFF TO THE CHAPLAIN FOR YOU). The other major thing to remember is they will also have a harder time bringing chaff clearing tech without specialising if they go in on stalker bolt rifles. Not going to lie, the all heavy weapon list I made was quite something to look at for myself.

 

Another aspect of their combos and repairs is remember their techmarines need to glue themselves to the side of the tank to keep the repairs going and the ironstone is only 3" in aura (which for something that only works on tanks can really hamper formations of armour around, you try!) and on top of that, you can't repair whats dead. If you think 6+++ is going to save you, don't count on it. When things get down to the wire for killing then sure but most times, you find that the tank is dead with change to spare. To cap that off, tanks ain't cheap and the killer of them is charging them, instantly shut down and most tanks don't have the gun to stop charges.

 

What I think will become a big deal with Centurions again, not tanks. The big thing Grav-turions have issues with is being charged and deep strikers do that, the case I bring here is it won't be tanks or dreadnoughts we are scared of, but centurions.

 

As it stands however there are two camps. There is the Iron Hand version which will without doubt be the most terrifying thing to charge on the emperor graced universe (5-6 gravturions overwatching on 4+? Na, I don't think I will charge that!) but similarly the Ultramarine version does have "for the greater good" (sorry...what was it? Tau focus...no...Defensive Blueberries? Meh, close enough) which if there is even a second squad of centurions nearby it will equally remove a threat charging.

 

To be honest, I am torn. There are some serious considerations in favour of the Iron Hands and I am torn because I LOVE the look of the codex but I am being cautious because to be honest, this just REEKS of hype and overglorifying effects and abilities.

As I like to Say:

"In Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, Theory and Practice aren't the same"

 

Lots of theories like WW1 generals assuming what the battles will be like without actually having any proper knowledge of what it will shape up like. After all, there is the Eldar Flyer Spam list out there just laughing at shooting (sure you have re-roll 1s but you are hitting on 5s) and Tau Riptide lists are still a thing and while yea, you can negate the HBC+ATS with the Ironstone for dreads and tanks but there will still be fusion blasters to contend with in some lists and you still need to deal with the drones and they are just a mobile because those Riptides move 14" which is nuts.

Against the mirror it will be a game of cat and mouse with the winner being decided by a mixture of skill and luck.

Heck, you may even face a bunch of Whirlwinds and Thunderfire cannons from one guy and just say "can't hit what you can't see"

Have a run in with the classic Shadowsword + 3 dawn shields on captain bike jet eagles and now you have that to contend with.

Maybe you run into a grey knight player and you concede to them to be nice as so they get a win for once.

 

After having a little vent earlier in this post, What I want to say is a lot of people are calling "OP" without actual testing being done proper and thorough. We need to see the Iron Hands actually have some real live fire games against what the world has to offer and lets see how far they get before we scream OP.

 

Unless its a new Eldar codex...then we just assume its OP because eldar...


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I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

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"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#24
emperorpants

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Way to be needlessly aggressive by telling me to shut up. Most people are discussing things just fine, no need to come in so hot. So first off, chill out. Take a breath. Second, no I won't shut up about iron hands abilities when people say blatantly false things, like iron hands being slow compared to other marines. They aren't. A death ball is, but nobody with skill will simply play nothing but a death ball. Honestly, how can you, with a straight face, say that moving freely with no penalty to hit and re rolling ones isn't 1. The best doctrine so far, and 2. Not fast for movement? Flyers will ignore penalties to hit and hit on twos while re rolling 1s with no captain while also getting an ap bonus to heavy weapons. What do ultra flyers get from their doctrine? All tanks get to move and shoot with no penalty and re roll ones for free. What do ultra tanks get from their doctrine? All heavy weapons squads get to move and shoot with no penalty and re roll ones. What do ultra heavy squads get? The fact that you can't see that iron hands essentially get the ultra tactic with added bonuses which makes it better is mind boggling. Funny how you mention the ultras get an ap bonus in the tactical doctrine like they are the only chapter to get that. Guess What? Heavy weapons get that bonus in the dev doctrine, which is active turn 1. Ultras don't activate till turn 2. Again, a very similar tactic that is active turn 1 and has extra bonuses...not sure why you would think that the ultras tactic is better....literally the only units that benefit more under ultras are normal bolt rifle intercessors, tactical (Which nobody plays), and aggressors. Pretty much every other unit is better under iron hands by virtue of being active turn 1 and having the bonus ap on heavy weapons, and re rolling ones for free. I could list every example If you want, but here are a few more: dreadnoughts. The Levi dread is going to get better ap on all it's guns, move and shoot with no penalty which is the only benefit the ultras super doctrine grants, re roll ones for free, and have all this active turn one.

Also, if you dont see how good stalker intercessors are let me break it down. They will move just as much as ultra intercessors, ignore the penalty to hit, have better range at 36 inches, have ap 3 and two damage. It boggles my mind that you are selling iron hands durability short here. They are stupid durable with an undercosted auto take character that can heal them for 6 damage all on his own, in addition to getting damage reduced, and in addition to the fnp. Also, about ultra tanks, what do ultra executioners get from their doctrine? Not much. At all. You already know what iron hands get, it's far superior. All that dakka with extra ap? Yes please. Ultras get to move and shoot with no penalty for other tanks, turn two. As shown, iron hands do the same thing with added things from turn 1. Seriously. It's not even fair. Also If you can't see the benefit of not needing a captain in your list for re rolls I don't know what to tell you. Ultras HAVE TO CASTLE to get re rolls. Iron hands don't. Having a castle is certainly important for all synergies, but not necessary. Ultras need to stay in their castle to maintain offensive efficiency, whilst iron hands don't have to as much. It's not like they will be zipping around in ways iron hands cant. If they are please enlighten me. So again, iron hands are not slow. Their death ball is, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER CHAPTERS DEATH BALL.

Yes, ultra tanks can fall back and shoot...at minus 1. The best tanks, executioners, can do that without a chapter tactic, so iron hands tanks can fall back and shoot too. The things that can't fall back and shoot get all the awesome iron hands durability bonuses instead. I'd much rather have those durability bonuses than falling back and shooting at minus two ( minus 1 for falling back and the another minus for moving with a heavy weapon, cuz remember the ultra super doctrine doesn't work if you fall back, fun fact that!). Also, iron hands are pretty much never going to degrade for shooting. They are almost impossible to bracket. So please, tell me and provide examples like I did, how are the ultras super doctrine or chapter tactics better overall? Also, sure, ultras can for the greater good for 2 cp. Yes, it's very good. A 5 to hit in overwatch is very good too, and it's on all the time for every unit, and costs no cp. Also, the only reason I am comparing things to ultras is because you brought them into this by claiming their super doctrine is superior.

Edited by emperorpants, 17 September 2019 - 03:48 AM.

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#25
MeltaRange

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The Doctrine isn't the best doctrine. It is good but it has clear weakness and if we were going on application of a doctrine then Ultramarines would take that in spades, clubs, diamonds and even hearts. Their doctrine allows you to move and fire heavy weapons at full effect, no penalty along with allowing you to use double tap bolter for free at that point WITH a bonus AP1.

 

I disagree.  I think it is the best doctrine bonus.  You can't compare it to the UM Tactical 1:1 since IH is available from Turn 1.  Every conversation/comparison needs to start with that fact...it's simply that much of a difference.

 

Beyond that though, even without that immediate handicap, I think it's still better and I think it will become more clear how much better it is when we start seeing more armies that are optimized for it.  And the same goes for the belief they are "slow".  You're right - right NOW, people are theory crafting based on the "best" or "hottest" IH units like TFC, Vehicles, Eliminators, and Devastators, especially because on the surface IH makes these units outrageously good.  But I actually think that you're going to see armies just including units like any other SM army, and capitalize on that simply because those "less best/hottest" units are still good at their role, and in many cases just blatantly superior to other Chapter's versions simply because they have the best CT and best defensive abilities.  For example, I can make an argument that IH have just as good Bikers as White Scars, albeit in a slightly different role.  But you need speed?  Simply include a big unit of Bikes.  You can toss some CP at it and give it a 3++ and 5+ FNP for a turn.  Or you could cast Psysteel Armor on them for a 2+.  Throw in a unit of 3 Land Speeders, which are the most resilient Land Speeders while being the most accurate Land Speeders...better than White Scars, who are supposed to be the Land Speeder "specialists".  Throw in some flyers, which are simply better than UM, WS, and RG flyers.  Toss in some dreads...they have the best Dreadnoughts.  You have the best Drop Pods, who can fire at full efficiency Turn 1 while disembarking. 


Edited by MeltaRange, 17 September 2019 - 02:55 AM.

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