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Iron Hands Weaknesses

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#26
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#27
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I’m sorry but I just had to reply. The ultramarines doctrine is not move and shoot heavy without penalty. It’s count as not having moved. So the super flying tank gets to move as far as it wants and still shoot twice, which is better than what iron hands get to do. And yeah, it super buffs aggressors. A unit of six with scions is pumping out 72 + 12d6 bolter shots, while still moving. It’s a huge buff.

And then yes, your stalker intercessors will kill ultra bolt rifle intercessors very well. How good are you against guard infantry? How about chaos? How about anything not w2? Your stalkers are going to be firing less shots and wasting damage compared to rifle intercessors, and that’s ignoring the fact anyone can get rerolls of one to all bolt weapons and still have access to scions.

There are a ton of the successor chapter tactics which work wonders with ultra and other supplements, I haven’t found many that do a ton for the iron hands. I think that’s a weakness. I think iron hands are strong, maybe even stronger than the ultramarines when taken as a whole supplement. But I just don’t think the doctrine comparisons are as clear cut as some here have treated it.
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#28
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Certainly no offense taken and none intended, emperorpants. This is an interesting thread with worthwhile discussions, but I guess my point was more about being less worried how current codices compare to this supplement than I am when everyone else gets their turn at being updated within this edition. It isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion that this will happen, given GW's track record of not updating certain books for multiple editions in a row, but I feel like "new" GW is less likely to do that.

 

I'm inclined to agree with Sinister-Miles about the stalker intercessors. I don't really feel like I need them in my list. I'm still learning what this army is capable of and how other armies will deal with it, but I'm really still inclined to say while IH are powerful, they're not broken or overpowered. Certainly not every army will be able to handle everything IH can throw at them, but I still don't really see anything that stands out as insanely over the top.


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#29
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That really doesn't counter anything I said though.  My point, which I believe I illustrated alright, is that it isn't hard at all to bring most, and in many cases ALL, the iron hands toolset to the table due to the fact that a lot of it is strats which are always availale, chapter tactics (available to all units), an auto include character you'd have to be stupid not to take, and a relic that you get for free.  The only thing you might have to pay extra for or that you might not include anyway is the cp regen relic, which costs 1 cp and will refund itself, likely several times over.  You can take all of these things and still change your actual army make up quite significantly, so no, you doing this will not make you predictable and have you run the same things over and over.  Although there likely will be lists that are so strong that nothing can deal with them, in which case, competitive people certainly WILL run them over and over at no obvious disadvantage as of now.


 

 

 

OK let us get down the the fundamental design tweak in the new SM codex.

 

If you want lots of CP you have to take lots of troops. SM troops are expensive and in Iron Hands they are not really adding much offensive output unless your opponent obligingly brings lots of W2 elite models for your stalker rifles to shoot at.

 

OR

 

You CP farm and lose all your Doctrines

 

I have not yet seen a proposed list for IH that looks like it would solve this problem. I have seen lists with tons of output but which look like they would run out of steam on T2 or T3. I have seen lists with adequate amounts of CP that do not have the heavy weapon presence to really devastate an opponent. I have yet to see a list which actually has an answer to that fundamental design choice for SM without having to make some compromises. Now it could just be that nobody has posted the list that you have in your head which perfectly resolves all of this and is going to be the next top tier list archetype, in which case that is just in your head and how could I possibly know about it. Feel free to either post up a list which solves all that without leaving weaknesses for existing top lists to exploit - or alternatively if you prefer just go and win some tournaments to prove your point. I freely admit that absence of evidence of such a list is not proof  that no such list could possibly exist.


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#30
domsto

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I’m sorry but I just had to reply. The ultramarines doctrine is not move and shoot heavy without penalty. It’s count as not having moved. So the super flying tank gets to move as far as it wants and still shoot twice, which is better than what iron hands get to do. And yeah, it super buffs aggressors. A unit of six with scions is pumping out 72 + 12d6 bolter shots, while still moving. It’s a huge buff.


Well actualy it is.
As the rule states you count as remaind Stationary.
And you get the -1 to with Heavy Weapons only if you moved.
Which you didn't thanks to the Rule.
So Ultras get the Iron Hands traits as a nice side effect to their Trait.

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#31
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In regards to Happy's statement, one list I theory-crafted as a bit of funsy was as I alluded to the "all heavy" list where everyone has a heavy weapon.

 

2 Battalions

4 Primaris Lieutenants with stalker rifles

60 Intercessors with Stalker Rifles

3 Ven dreads with twin las and missile launcher

3 Thunderfire Cannons

 

Its meme to the max however I certainly wouldn't like to face it to be fair. The big issue would be a match-up with horde with rapid answer for the TFCs (like say, dakka jets or Lootas if LoS is free). However as for any other match-up, it is lining up to be fairly brutal as even if you were to somehow get to the dreads (They would be characters) to get rid of anti-tank, all the troops can in a pinch just open fire as needed with AP3 D2 rifles (yes str4 so knights might be a problem). However again the issue is really down to mobility, you have to split into 4 groups to spread the lieutenant boosts: Dreadnoughts, TFCs and 2 blocks of 30 intercessors. You would need to have the intercessors stretch out from the HQs.

 

Oh and if doing tournament you would need to cut one of the Lieutenants down to a standard lieutenant due to the rule of 3. I just said screw the rule for this meme because well...meme! (you would just stick that lieutenant with the TFCs since he will likely be out of LoS anyway)

 

Currently working on a double land raider phobos list.

 

Like I said, I am excited for Iron Hands but I see the doomsaying as unwarranted. There are plenty of fun things to play with and plenty of cheese but there is cheese in other armies too that do well with it (Going to be testing an ultramarine list with a small phobos set of units with lord of deceit and rapid redeploy option, now I can shuffle up to 6 units around AFTER deployment).

The spotlight is strong on the Iron Hands right now. Not sure but did people forget how people were when we learned that the ultramarines would get full movement on the executioners with double tap? Maybe they didn't get as much hate because Bobby G got nerfed.

(yet he still made a top 3 with a flawless record list that didn't even use executioners)


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#32
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The strongest Iron Hands lists will have 3/4 Vehicles and no more. The rest should be mobile units and infantry.

They can be so durable that extra redundancy isn't needed. If you spam too many vehicles you'll sacrifice numbers, board control, etc, etc

Lists that protect their vehicles behind a good number of advancing troops will be the strongest and will be very hard to counter. Perhaps turn 1 assault pressure before they fan out could blunt them.

Edited by Ishagu, 17 September 2019 - 11:02 AM.

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#33
Happy-inquisitor

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In regards to Happy's statement, one list I theory-crafted as a bit of funsy was as I alluded to the "all heavy" list where everyone has a heavy weapon.

 

2 Battalions

4 Primaris Lieutenants with stalker rifles

60 Intercessors with Stalker Rifles

3 Ven dreads with twin las and missile launcher

3 Thunderfire Cannons

 

 

I am right with you with your thinking that Character Ven Dreads could be really cheesy.

 

However like you I do not think that is anything ridiculous OP in any way that the current top cheese is not already.

 

If we compare with the LGT winning list we might see what I mean:

 

3 x Crimson Hunter Exarch

Farseer on bike

Warlock on bike

Nightspinner

2 x Support wpn with shadow weaver

2 x Nightwing

Archon

3 x dissy Ravager

2 x Razorwing

 

Much as i love the Ven Dread it is less awesome when its hitting key targets at -2 and does not have  a chapter master nearby to fix those accuracy issues. So against that many flyers you will be spending a lot of time castled up to protect your character dreads and therefore struggling to score objectives. Similarly you will struggle to score Kill More against that eldar list in an ITC mission because you are not going to see many targets that are not -2 to hit on a table with any reasonable terrain.

 

At least you are in the game now and have a chance against that list but by no means can you expect to just blow it off the table and one slight positioning error can lose you all your anti-tank very fast indeed. Yet if you play over-cautiously you will lose on the mission. So I'd say you have equivalent cheese levels but nothing exceptional or that the game as a whole is not already dealing with.


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#34
MeltaRange

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Like I said, I am excited for Iron Hands but I see the doomsaying as unwarranted. There are plenty of fun things to play with and plenty of cheese but there is cheese in other armies too that do well with it (Going to be testing an ultramarine list with a small phobos set of units with lord of deceit and rapid redeploy option, now I can shuffle up to 6 units around AFTER deployment).

 

I'm sorry but this is laugh out loud funny to think that UM list you posted is good/more than a gimmick.  It reminds me of that scene in Temple of Doom, where the guy is like spinning around his sword and jumping around looking all fancy and skilled, but Indy just pulls out his pistol and shoots him in the head.  Your list is the guy with the fancy sword moves and Iron Hands are Indiana Jones.


Edited by MeltaRange, 17 September 2019 - 12:21 PM.

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#35
MeltaRange

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I’m sorry but I just had to reply. The ultramarines doctrine is not move and shoot heavy without penalty. It’s count as not having moved. So the super flying tank gets to move as far as it wants and still shoot twice, which is better than what iron hands get to do. And yeah, it super buffs aggressors. A unit of six with scions is pumping out 72 + 12d6 bolter shots, while still moving. It’s a huge buff.

And then yes, your stalker intercessors will kill ultra bolt rifle intercessors very well. How good are you against guard infantry? How about chaos? How about anything not w2? Your stalkers are going to be firing less shots and wasting damage compared to rifle intercessors, and that’s ignoring the fact anyone can get rerolls of one to all bolt weapons and still have access to scions.

There are a ton of the successor chapter tactics which work wonders with ultra and other supplements, I haven’t found many that do a ton for the iron hands. I think that’s a weakness. I think iron hands are strong, maybe even stronger than the ultramarines when taken as a whole supplement. But I just don’t think the doctrine comparisons are as clear cut as some here have treated it.

 

No one is saying that Scions of Guilliman stinks.  It's actually incredible.  We're just saying that Calculated Fury is better, which it is.  Except, of course, for a handful of units in particular situations. (which you cited above)

 

Also, the reason why you think that there aren't successor tactics that work well with IH is because their primary chapter tactic is so incredible that it's not worth giving up in any situation.  Even so, things like Stealthy, Bolter Fusillade, Master Artisan, and Scions of the Forge work fine.  


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#36
Rodrick

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after 4 games,  repulsor executioners in a IH "moving castle" themed list are insane, they dont die and immune to being assault( unless anti overwatch stuff), hilarious  .

 

best unit in the codex.  even if they die , with that stratagem they can shot one weapon OR AUTO EXPLODE 6'' 1D6 MW

 

IH plays like a dark hole, moving slowly and killing everything.


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#37
emperorpants

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Certainly no offense taken and none intended, emperorpants. This is an interesting thread with worthwhile discussions, but I guess my point was more about being less worried how current codices compare to this supplement than I am when everyone else gets their turn at being updated within this edition. It isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion that this will happen, given GW's track record of not updating certain books for multiple editions in a row, but I feel like "new" GW is less likely to do that.

I'm inclined to agree with Sinister-Miles about the stalker intercessors. I don't really feel like I need them in my list. I'm still learning what this army is capable of and how other armies will deal with it, but I'm really still inclined to say while IH are powerful, they're not broken or overpowered. Certainly not every army will be able to handle everything IH can throw at them, but I still don't really see anything that stands out as insanely over the top.

No worries, I apologize if any of my posts seemed aggressive in any way, was not my intention. Yeah, I get the point about stalkers vs guardsmen in that regard ultras for sure have the advantage. I don't really see it as a weakness though since anti chaff duties can be easily given to repulsors and fliers which will hit on 2s and re roll ones all the time. I also want to make clear to people that I'm not trying to rag on Iron hands players, just GW for going so overboard imo with their rules. Honestly I have no problem with Iron hands being the best chapter, the problem I have with iron hands is the fact that they , at least imo, are just SO much better then everyone else it's unfair. They also seem to be better at other chapters specialities in some cases, which is kinda insulting to those chapters. If they are as good as they appear and I suspect, it will be bad for the game full stop. That said I'd love to be proven wrong on this. I'd love to find a way to fight them. It's just not fun to fight an army that seems almost unkillable, you know?



after 4 games, repulsor executioners in a IH "moving castle" themed list are insane, they dont die and immune to being assault( unless anti overwatch stuff), hilarious .

best unit in the codex. even if they die , with that stratagem they can shot one weapon OR AUTO EXPLODE 6'' 1D6 MW

IH plays like a dark hole, moving slowly and killing everything.


And this is exactly what I am referring to and am afraid of.






That really doesn't counter anything I said though. My point, which I believe I illustrated alright, is that it isn't hard at all to bring most, and in many cases ALL, the iron hands toolset to the table due to the fact that a lot of it is strats which are always availale, chapter tactics (available to all units), an auto include character you'd have to be stupid not to take, and a relic that you get for free. The only thing you might have to pay extra for or that you might not include anyway is the cp regen relic, which costs 1 cp and will refund itself, likely several times over. You can take all of these things and still change your actual army make up quite significantly, so no, you doing this will not make you predictable and have you run the same things over and over. Although there likely will be lists that are so strong that nothing can deal with them, in which case, competitive people certainly WILL run them over and over at no obvious disadvantage as of now.





OK let us get down the the fundamental design tweak in the new SM codex.

If you want lots of CP you have to take lots of troops. SM troops are expensive and in Iron Hands they are not really adding much offensive output unless your opponent obligingly brings lots of W2 elite models for your stalker rifles to shoot at.

OR

You CP farm and lose all your Doctrines

I have not yet seen a proposed list for IH that looks like it would solve this problem. I have seen lists with tons of output but which look like they would run out of steam on T2 or T3. I have seen lists with adequate amounts of CP that do not have the heavy weapon presence to really devastate an opponent. I have yet to see a list which actually has an answer to that fundamental design choice for SM without having to make some compromises. Now it could just be that nobody has posted the list that you have in your head which perfectly resolves all of this and is going to be the next top tier list archetype, in which case that is just in your head and how could I possibly know about it. Feel free to either post up a list which solves all that without leaving weaknesses for existing top lists to exploit - or alternatively if you prefer just go and win some tournaments to prove your point. I freely admit that absence of evidence of such a list is not proof that no such list could possibly exist.


Or you can take the relic that generates cp and likely make back around 3cp or more.



In regards to Happy's statement, one list I theory-crafted as a bit of funsy was as I alluded to the "all heavy" list where everyone has a heavy weapon.

2 Battalions
4 Primaris Lieutenants with stalker rifles
60 Intercessors with Stalker Rifles
3 Ven dreads with twin las and missile launcher
3 Thunderfire Cannons

Its meme to the max however I certainly wouldn't like to face it to be fair. The big issue would be a match-up with horde with rapid answer for the TFCs (like say, dakka jets or Lootas if LoS is free). However as for any other match-up, it is lining up to be fairly brutal as even if you were to somehow get to the dreads (They would be characters) to get rid of anti-tank, all the troops can in a pinch just open fire as needed with AP3 D2 rifles (yes str4 so knights might be a problem). However again the issue is really down to mobility, you have to split into 4 groups to spread the lieutenant boosts: Dreadnoughts, TFCs and 2 blocks of 30 intercessors. You would need to have the intercessors stretch out from the HQs.

Oh and if doing tournament you would need to cut one of the Lieutenants down to a standard lieutenant due to the rule of 3. I just said screw the rule for this meme because well...meme! (you would just stick that lieutenant with the TFCs since he will likely be out of LoS anyway)

Currently working on a double land raider phobos list.

Like I said, I am excited for Iron Hands but I see the doomsaying as unwarranted. There are plenty of fun things to play with and plenty of cheese but there is cheese in other armies too that do well with it (Going to be testing an ultramarine list with a small phobos set of units with lord of deceit and rapid redeploy option, now I can shuffle up to 6 units around AFTER deployment).
The spotlight is strong on the Iron Hands right now. Not sure but did people forget how people were when we learned that the ultramarines would get full movement on the executioners with double tap? Maybe they didn't get as much hate because Bobby G got nerfed.
(yet he still made a top 3 with a flawless record list that didn't even use executioners)


And you know what? I really and truly hope you are right. I really do. I just don't think you are for all the reasons I've already stated. No offense. I do think the calls that this is all op are warranted, again for all the reasons stated. I know it's early to declare something op, but sometimes the writing on the wall is to clear to ignore. In this case, imo, the writing is spray painted across the entire wall in bright red on a white background with neon flashing lights accentuating the wonderful handwriting.

If a ultra marines list did that...I shutter to think what an Iron hands list will do.



The strongest Iron Hands lists will have 3/4 Vehicles and no more. The rest should be mobile units and infantry.

They can be so durable that extra redundancy isn't needed. If you spam too many vehicles you'll sacrifice numbers, board control, etc, etc

Lists that protect their vehicles behind a good number of advancing troops will be the strongest and will be very hard to counter. Perhaps turn 1 assault pressure before they fan out could blunt them.


This is correct and a nice concise way of stating one of the points I've been trying to make.



Like I said, I am excited for Iron Hands but I see the doomsaying as unwarranted. There are plenty of fun things to play with and plenty of cheese but there is cheese in other armies too that do well with it (Going to be testing an ultramarine list with a small phobos set of units with lord of deceit and rapid redeploy option, now I can shuffle up to 6 units around AFTER deployment).



I'm sorry but this is laugh out loud funny to think that UM list you posted is good/more than a gimmick. It reminds me of that scene in Temple of Doom, where the guy is like spinning around his sword and jumping around looking all fancy and skilled, but Indy just pulls out his pistol and shoots him in the head. Your list is the guy with the fancy sword moves and Iron Hands are Indiana Jones.


Agreed. Seems like it's more of a "being picky about what exact portion of the board you'd like to die on" thing than anything else.

#38
Rodrick

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with a chapter master, IH vehicles dont need screening , at least the good vehicles

 

with -1 dmg & 5++ bubble, ranged weapons are much less a concern,

 

the only weakness i see , is bad HQ positioning ,  HQ being sniped even with the new strat (bodyguard) or assaulted is a "problem"



#39
Sinister_Miles

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No one is saying that Scions of Guilliman stinks. It's actually incredible. We're just saying that Calculated Fury is better, which it is. Except, of course, for a handful of units in particular situations. (which you cited above)

Also, the reason why you think that there aren't successor tactics that work well with IH is because their primary chapter tactic is so incredible that it's not worth giving up in any situation. Even so, things like Stealthy, Bolter Fusillade, Master Artisan, and Scions of the Forge work fine.


Actually this is kinda my point. I think iron hands ability is maybe the strongest of the first founding, but I am NOT certain of that. And I disagree that you can so easily and flat out declare that Calculated Fury is simply better than Scions. Particular situations is the name of the game, everything is the best in particular situations. The question is are my particular situations really so rare or convoluted compared to yours for you to so easily dismiss mine? I don’t mean to sound offended or whiny, I simply think there isn’t much introspection going on

I think that saying the Iron hands ability is simply amazing is ignoring the point, which is that the ultramarines supplement is versatile and applies to many of the excellent combinations people have thought up. Bolter Fusillade is not a great option for Calculated Fury, since so few units will see the benefit of it, I recognize the reason for this is because of the wide sweeping nature of a universal reroll to heavy weapons, but i still feel that the lack of easy and competitive chapter tactic combinations is a weakness. Scions of the Forge is just 1/3rd of the iron hands ability! Which, I know, is a sign of how strong the iron hands ability is, but think about this: would the ultramarines supplement be stronger if it applied to the iron hands, or would the iron hands supplement be stronger if it applied to the ultramarines? Because I can make my ultramarines successor look like the iron hands. I am not as sure that making my iron hands successor look like the ultramarines is as beneficial.

On a related note, people have repeatedly mentioned that Calculated Fury is stronger because it is in effect from turn 1. I think this is missing something: assault doctrine. It is much easier for an ultramarines player to transition their army into combat than it is for an iron hands player. I think people underestimate how valuable a universal -1 is in close combat.

This is, again, not to say that the iron hands are bad at cc, or that the supplement ISNT the strongest, this is all to say that I just don’t think it is THAT much stronger or quite so obviously dominant as to utterly dismiss any other sm supplement from the conversation.

Edited by Sinister_Miles, 17 September 2019 - 01:36 PM.

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#40
emperorpants

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No one is saying that Scions of Guilliman stinks. It's actually incredible. We're just saying that Calculated Fury is better, which it is. Except, of course, for a handful of units in particular situations. (which you cited above)

Also, the reason why you think that there aren't successor tactics that work well with IH is because their primary chapter tactic is so incredible that it's not worth giving up in any situation. Even so, things like Stealthy, Bolter Fusillade, Master Artisan, and Scions of the Forge work fine.


Actually this is kinda my point. I think iron hands ability is maybe the strongest of the first founding, but I am NOT certain of that. And I disagree that you can so easily and flat out declare that Calculated Fury is simply better than Scions. Particular situations is the name of the game, everything is the best in particular situations. The question is are my particular situations really so rare or convoluted compared to yours for you to so easily dismiss mine? I don’t mean to sound offended or whiny, I simply think there isn’t much introspection going on

I think that saying the Iron hands ability is simply amazing is ignoring the point, which is that the ultramarines supplement is versatile and applies to many of the excellent combinations people have thought up. Bolter Fusillade is not a great option for Calculated Fury, since so few units will see the benefit of it, I recognize the reason for this is because of the wide sweeping nature of a universal reroll to heavy weapons, but i still feel that the lack of easy and competitive chapter tactic combinations is a weakness. Scions of the Forge is just 1/3rd of the iron hands ability! Which, I know, is a sign of how strong the iron hands ability is, but think about this: would the ultramarines supplement be stronger if it applied to the iron hands, or would the iron hands supplement be stronger if it applied to the ultramarines? Because I can make my ultramarines successor look like the iron hands. I am not as sure that making my iron hands successor look like the ultramarines is as beneficial.

On a related note, people have repeatedly mentioned that Calculated Fury is stronger because it is in effect from turn 1. I think this is missing something: assault doctrine. It is much easier for an ultramarines player to transition their army into combat than it is for an iron hands player. I think people underestimate how valuable a universal -1 is in close combat.

This is, again, not to say that the iron hands are bad at cc, or that the supplement ISNT the strongest, this is all to say that I just don’t think it is THAT much stronger or quite so obviously dominant as to utterly dismiss any other sm supplement from the conversation.

 

I get what you are saying, but having your super doctrine active turn 1 really is a HUGE advantage.  Also, yes, calculated fury is better by a huge amount.  again, it is active turn one.  How many times have you heard that a game was decided turn 1?  Also, functionally Scions and fury work very similar except in a lot of circumstances.  Fury effects more things and is better for more things, full stop.  Its better for almost every vehicle, it's better for pretty much every dreadnought, it's better for hellblasters, it's better for dev squads, its better for bikes, its better for land speeders, its better for tanks, its better for heavy weapon troops like stalker intercessors, its better for things in drop pods, its better for fliers, its better for transports, etc.  I could keep going but you get the picture.  The thing is that fuctionally scions and fury work almost the same, except fury is active turn 1,  and allows free re rolls of 1. This is obviously superior to just moving and shooting heavy weapons with no penalty as both super doctrines do this.  Scions is only better for rapid fire bolter weapons troops and aggressors because yes, the troops will always be double tapping due to counting as having not moved and the aggressors will always shoot twice.  Don't get me wrong scions is very good and the power of intercessors and aggressors always shooting twice shouldn't be underestimated.  It's just that fury helps so much more of an army for longer than scions, in a similar manner, that makes it flat out superior.


Edited by emperorpants, 17 September 2019 - 02:19 PM.


#41
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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png


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#42
Happy-inquisitor

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OK let us get down the the fundamental design tweak in the new SM codex.

If you want lots of CP you have to take lots of troops. SM troops are expensive and in Iron Hands they are not really adding much offensive output unless your opponent obligingly brings lots of W2 elite models for your stalker rifles to shoot at.

OR

You CP farm and lose all your Doctrines

I have not yet seen a proposed list for IH that looks like it would solve this problem. I have seen lists with tons of output but which look like they would run out of steam on T2 or T3. I have seen lists with adequate amounts of CP that do not have the heavy weapon presence to really devastate an opponent. I have yet to see a list which actually has an answer to that fundamental design choice for SM without having to make some compromises. Now it could just be that nobody has posted the list that you have in your head which perfectly resolves all of this and is going to be the next top tier list archetype, in which case that is just in your head and how could I possibly know about it. Feel free to either post up a list which solves all that without leaving weaknesses for existing top lists to exploit - or alternatively if you prefer just go and win some tournaments to prove your point. I freely admit that absence of evidence of such a list is not proof that no such list could possibly exist.


Or you can take the relic that generates cp and likely make back around 3cp or more.

 

 

 

I have never found those relics do that much in low-CP lists. Anything you use pre-game is lost to you and even if you are still pushing through 3-4 CP on each of the first 2 turns you are only maybe getting 2CP back before you are pretty much out of them. So you need to effectively win the game in the first 2 turns before you run out of steam.  I think even IH are just going to have to spend 2CP on Chapter Master in most competitive games and if you are only starting with 9CP that does not leave you with a lot to play with. That gets worse if your opponent takes a Callidus and really I'm not sure why any imperium soup opponent would not.

 

The ones that harvest CP off your opponent work better in low CP lists.

 

But anyway, go ahead and prove me wrong and I will be glad to admit I was wrong. Feedback I heard was that the Eldar Flyer lists were painfully good against marines so I would start there - they are after all pretty horrible to deal with and the Crimson Hunters re-rolling wounds on any sort of Repulsor makes them a significant threat. To my mind it is not a new meta-defining faction until we see a list from it that makes the previous top list need to go back on the shelf while still having tools to play hard against the other high-end lists.


Edited by Happy-inquisitor, 17 September 2019 - 03:11 PM.

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#43
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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png

 

Thank you for pointing this out, the thread was descending into the abyss.  That's because people are struggling to find any weaknesses for a well designed Iron Hands army.

 

The biggest weakness that I can see right now is being able to tag units in combat so they can't shoot.  I guess.  They have several easy ways to mitigate that weakness:

 

1) able to spread out and not have to castle due to the bonuses provided by Calculated Fury

2) some of their best units have FLY, which can simply fall back and shoot anyway.

3) actually do have some ability to fight in combat - these aren't fire warriors or guardians here - and so can actually kill some "chaff" units that want to tie them up. (including very good Character support for Heroic Interventions)

4) very long range on many of their weapons

 

So to me, that's not even really that big of a weakness. Maybe against units that can wrap and trap them.


Edited by MeltaRange, 17 September 2019 - 03:14 PM.

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#44
Happy-inquisitor

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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png

 

Iron Hands have access to a whole lot of tools, there is no one weakness that you can say would apply to absolutely all Iron Hands lists. If we try to talk about generic weaknesses the conversation will just get bogged down in hypothetical "but and IH list can just take X to counter Y" which is always true but no single list can take everything.

 

What I am trying to get to is some idea of what people think are going to be actual IH competitive lists and then look at the weaknesses of those specific lists. So far I would say we are seeing an emphasis on big powerful vehicles which start out hard to kill and just get harder with IH chapter tactics, Repulsor variants and FW dreads get mentioned a lot. With 1000 points sunk into a few big hitters they are unlikely to have large amounts of troops or lots of CP.

 

Generically anything which can put out mortal wounds in significant volume to vehicles will be a problem for Iron Hands, those big vehicles tend to be costing in the region of 20 points per wound so every mortal wound *really* hurts them even if they can save 1/6 of them. They will at the very least need to get first turn and have LOS to deal with those threats or be losing a chunk of their army before it does anything. From Space Marines I would suggest Siegebreaker Cohort as a classic example, if it gets the first salvo in it will remove from play a very expensive IH vehicle and this will seriously dent their damage output. 

 

I am not yet seeing an IH list that really changes the dominance of Eldar Flyers over space marines. I think maybe IH flyers can help out here but does that dilute their power against other lists too much? Repulsor IH lists really truly do not want to go 2nd against an Eldar Flyer spam list.


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#45
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To me, the only possible weaknesses are cps and and possibly getting tagged in melee.  However, those are both mitigated well enough to not really be weaknesses at all.  No more so than any other chapter really.  Ultras have ways to regen cp, but a relic for Iron hands gives them pretty much the same ability, which mitigates cp problems.  Cp will never be a strength for Iron hands, but it at least won't be an obvious weakness.

 

As for getting tagged in melee, it's possible, but this point has been addressed ad nauseum by both myself and melt-range.

 

That's the issue:  Iron hands don't really seem to have any real appreciable weaknesses.  Anything that might be one has a low cost way to be mitigated.


Edited by emperorpants, 17 September 2019 - 03:27 PM.


#46
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I get what you are saying, but having your super doctrine active turn 1 really is a HUGE advantage.  Also, yes, calculated fury is better by a huge amount.  again, it is active turn one.  How many times have you heard that a game was decided turn 1?  Also, functionally Scions and fury work very similar except in a lot of circumstances.  Fury effects more things and is better for more things, full stop.  Its better for almost every vehicle, it's better for pretty much every dreadnought, it's better for hellblasters, it's better for dev squads, its better for bikes, its better for land speeders, its better for tanks, its better for heavy weapon troops like stalker intercessors, its better for things in drop pods, its better for fliers, its better for transports, etc.  I could keep going but you get the picture.  The thing is that fuctionally scions and fury work almost the same, except fury is active turn 1,  and allows free re rolls of 1. This is obviously superior to just moving and shooting heavy weapons with no penalty as both super doctrines do this.  Scions is only better for rapid fire bolter weapons troops and aggressors because yes, the troops will always be double tapping due to counting as having not moved and the aggressors will always shoot twice.  Don't get me wrong scions is very good and the power of intercessors and aggressors always shooting twice shouldn't be underestimated.  It's just that fury helps so much more of an army for longer than scions, in a similar manner, that makes it flat out superior.


I don’t want to derail this further so this will be the last I say on the subject. I do want to say I respect your opinion but I disagree fundamentally.

Turn one CAN be a hard advantage, it does not necessarily make it so. I could easily argue that any game decided on turn 1 is a game against an inexperienced player.

I think bikes are much better served by tactical doctrine, scions may not do anything but the doctrine itself is superior for general bikes and then scions makes taking the attack bike upgrade not hurt.

Hellbalsters are only better with CF if they take the heavy blaster, which puts you in the same territory as stalker bolters. Yes having a reroll of one is nice, that does not mean every option which would allow you to get that reroll is automatically superior. I can still manage to get some rerolls for my units and in general Hellblasters will much prefer being in tactical doctrine.

Also you’re ignoring things like land raider crusaders, which clearly want to be in tactical doctrine as well. Other units also benefit more from tactical doctrine like bolter focused centurions.

I think you are missing the forest for the trees here. Yes the benefit of CF is, on the surface, superior to the benefit of Scions. However I think Scions makes being in tactical doctrine hurt heavy things less, whereas CF does nothing for tactical or assault units.

Certainly a mechanized list benefits a great deal from iron hands, but if we are discussing weaknesses I think it bears pointing out that that some of the most common and prevalent units in the sm arsenal are not served at all by CF, and while they may not directly benefit from scions, they may benefit far more from either being in tactical doctrine or simply having the versatility of more easily changing doctrines.

Inflexibility is the great weakness I see in the ironhands. You don’t want to leave devastation doctrine and you want to emphasize the benefits of CF, that is going to make lists predictable and I just don’t think those benefits are so overwhelming that a good player can not seize on those predictabilities to advantage.

#47
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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png

 

Iron Hands have access to a whole lot of tools, there is no one weakness that you can say would apply to absolutely all Iron Hands lists. If we try to talk about generic weaknesses the conversation will just get bogged down in hypothetical "but and IH list can just take X to counter Y" which is always true but no single list can take everything.

 

What I am trying to get to is some idea of what people think are going to be actual IH competitive lists and then look at the weaknesses of those specific lists. So far I would say we are seeing an emphasis on big powerful vehicles which start out hard to kill and just get harder with IH chapter tactics, Repulsor variants and FW dreads get mentioned a lot. With 1000 points sunk into a few big hitters they are unlikely to have large amounts of troops or lots of CP.

 

Generically anything which can put out mortal wounds in significant volume to vehicles will be a problem for Iron Hands, those big vehicles tend to be costing in the region of 20 points per wound so every mortal wound *really* hurts them even if they can save 1/6 of them. They will at the very least need to get first turn and have LOS to deal with those threats or be losing a chunk of their army before it does anything. From Space Marines I would suggest Siegebreaker Cohort as a classic example, if it gets the first salvo in it will remove from play a very expensive IH vehicle and this will seriously dent their damage output. 

 

I am not yet seeing an IH list that really changes the dominance of Eldar Flyers over space marines. I think maybe IH flyers can help out here but does that dilute their power against other lists too much? Repulsor IH lists really truly do not want to go 2nd against an Eldar Flyer spam list.

 

 

Yeah, it seems that mortal wound spam might be the best way to fight Iron Hands.  The strat to give a 5 up fnp for mortals would obviously be the counter to that.  It's not ideal, but it is not bad.  Of course you can bait it out, but still.  

 

The Iron father healing those vehicles goes a long way as well.  

 

As to dealing with Eldar Fliers getting the units bs to a 2 up and then the powers that give a plus one to hit would help, as would a chappy with the plus 1 to hit litany.  The chaper master strat will also be key to dealing with fliers.

 

You know what is going to be gross though?  Putting a cheap as possible libby in a impulsor with null zone.  Scoot him up the board 14 inches, disembark 3 and then move another 6.  Then cast null zone.  It's risky, but I believe it would be worth a cp re roll to make sure it goes off.  Denying those invuln saves with hellblasters in rapid fire range or just in sight of an iron hands death ball will be gross.  It will work well for all chapters. 

 

In fact, that might be a way to try and deal with the iron hands death ball.  Suicide a libby with null zone and then blast away with everything you have.  Then run the impulsor with a 4 up invuln right into whatever doesn't have the fly keyword to deny shooting.  With the 4 up, it should survive.  This way you could likely kill at least something big and then deny a unit or two from shooting.



#48
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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png

 

Iron Hands have access to a whole lot of tools, there is no one weakness that you can say would apply to absolutely all Iron Hands lists. If we try to talk about generic weaknesses the conversation will just get bogged down in hypothetical "but and IH list can just take X to counter Y" which is always true but no single list can take everything.

 

What I am trying to get to is some idea of what people think are going to be actual IH competitive lists and then look at the weaknesses of those specific lists. So far I would say we are seeing an emphasis on big powerful vehicles which start out hard to kill and just get harder with IH chapter tactics, Repulsor variants and FW dreads get mentioned a lot. With 1000 points sunk into a few big hitters they are unlikely to have large amounts of troops or lots of CP.

 

Generically anything which can put out mortal wounds in significant volume to vehicles will be a problem for Iron Hands, those big vehicles tend to be costing in the region of 20 points per wound so every mortal wound *really* hurts them even if they can save 1/6 of them. They will at the very least need to get first turn and have LOS to deal with those threats or be losing a chunk of their army before it does anything. From Space Marines I would suggest Siegebreaker Cohort as a classic example, if it gets the first salvo in it will remove from play a very expensive IH vehicle and this will seriously dent their damage output. 

 

I am not yet seeing an IH list that really changes the dominance of Eldar Flyers over space marines. I think maybe IH flyers can help out here but does that dilute their power against other lists too much? Repulsor IH lists really truly do not want to go 2nd against an Eldar Flyer spam list.

 

 

Yeah, it seems that mortal wound spam might be the best way to fight Iron Hands.  The strat to give a 5 up fnp for mortals would obviously be the counter to that.  It's not ideal, but it is not bad.  Of course you can bait it out, but still.  

 

 

Still hilarious that IH have the best defense of any Chapter against their "weakness"


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#49
Happy-inquisitor

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Still hilarious that IH have the best defense of any Chapter against their "weakness"

 

 

 

All SM chapters have that strat. And by the time you have all those characters to give buffs to your 3 repulsors so they do not auto-lose to Eldar flyers I'm not seeing how you are getting enough CP into your list to use all the strats or enough troops to play the objectives game strongly.

 

Like I keep on saying, show me an actual list that makes a current top list like Eldar Flyers irrelevant and which gets probable wins against plaguebearer/smite spam, GSC shenanigans and the shield drone nonsense of Tau and then we can talk about what its weaknesses might be. When we keep talking in these hypotheticals anyone can always come up with an answer to everything without having to demonstrate how to fit all these different things into a single list. Getting it all into a list is the problem, it always is when you have a strong codex with loads of great choices. This is always how it goes when a new strong codex drops, we see people thinking it is unplayably good in the abstract because they do not look at any concrete list examples vs the current top lists.


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#50
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I'm not seeing much talk on weaknesses of the Iron Hands, which is what this topic is supposed to be about. Can we try and stay on topic please? Thanks.

 

As a note, with such volumes of text good structure to help others to read your points is all the more important so please do what you can here also smile.png

 

Iron Hands have access to a whole lot of tools, there is no one weakness that you can say would apply to absolutely all Iron Hands lists. If we try to talk about generic weaknesses the conversation will just get bogged down in hypothetical "but and IH list can just take X to counter Y" which is always true but no single list can take everything.

 

What I am trying to get to is some idea of what people think are going to be actual IH competitive lists and then look at the weaknesses of those specific lists. So far I would say we are seeing an emphasis on big powerful vehicles which start out hard to kill and just get harder with IH chapter tactics, Repulsor variants and FW dreads get mentioned a lot. With 1000 points sunk into a few big hitters they are unlikely to have large amounts of troops or lots of CP.

 

Generically anything which can put out mortal wounds in significant volume to vehicles will be a problem for Iron Hands, those big vehicles tend to be costing in the region of 20 points per wound so every mortal wound *really* hurts them even if they can save 1/6 of them. They will at the very least need to get first turn and have LOS to deal with those threats or be losing a chunk of their army before it does anything. From Space Marines I would suggest Siegebreaker Cohort as a classic example, if it gets the first salvo in it will remove from play a very expensive IH vehicle and this will seriously dent their damage output. 

 

I am not yet seeing an IH list that really changes the dominance of Eldar Flyers over space marines. I think maybe IH flyers can help out here but does that dilute their power against other lists too much? Repulsor IH lists really truly do not want to go 2nd against an Eldar Flyer spam list.

 

 

Yeah, it seems that mortal wound spam might be the best way to fight Iron Hands.  The strat to give a 5 up fnp for mortals would obviously be the counter to that.  It's not ideal, but it is not bad.  Of course you can bait it out, but still.  

 

 

Still hilarious that IH have the best defense of any Chapter against their "weakness"

 

Agreed.  Its pretty much just like we said, they really have no obvious weaknesses.  There is at least some way to  mitigate all their possible weaknesses.







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