Iron Hands Weaknesses

[MeltaRange]

All SM chapters have that strat. And by the time you have all those characters to give buffs to your 3 repulsors so they do not auto-lose to Eldar flyers I'm not seeing how you are getting enough CP into your list to use all the strats or enough troops to play the objectives game strongly.

 

Everyone has armor of Contempt, yes.  But IH have a 6+ FNP static against mortal wounds, and also have access to:

 

1. All Flesh is Weakness (WL Trait)
2. Reject the Flesh, Embrace the Machine (1 CP)
3. Cogitated Martyrdom (1 CP against shooting only, but there is plenty of MW from shooting out there, like Wave Serpents)
4. Their excellent special character has a 5+ against MW.

 

So they are "the best" against mortal wounds.

Edited September 17, 2019 by MeltaRange

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

All SM chapters have that strat. And by the time you have all those characters to give buffs to your 3 repulsors so they do not auto-lose to Eldar flyers I'm not seeing how you are getting enough CP into your list to use all the strats or enough troops to play the objectives game strongly.

 

Everyone has armor of Contempt, yes.  But IH have a 6+ FNP static against mortal wounds, and also have access to:

 

1. All Flesh is Weakness (WL Trait)
2. Reject the Flesh, Embrace the Machine (1 CP)
3. Cogitated Martyrdom (1 CP against shooting only, but there is plenty of MW from shooting out there, like Wave Serpents)
4. Their excellent special character has a 5+ against MW.

 

So they are "the best" against mortal wounds.

 

 

Fine, show us a list with all those things in it and the CP to power them up and with all the other tools you need. It is no good saying that it is in the codex, that is not the same as putting it on the table at all.

[Xerxus]

Black Templars have a 5+++ against mortal wounds on all units.

[MeltaRange]

 

Like I keep on saying, show me an actual list that makes a current top list like Eldar Flyers irrelevant and which gets probable wins against plaguebearer/smite spam, GSC shenanigans and the shield drone nonsense of Tau and then we can talk about what its weaknesses might be. When we keep talking in these hypotheticals anyone can always come up with an answer to everything without having to demonstrate how to fit all these different things into a single list. Getting it all into a list is the problem, it always is when you have a strong codex with loads of great choices. This is always how it goes when a new strong codex drops, we see people thinking it is unplayably good in the abstract because they do not look at any concrete list examples vs the current top lists.

 

 

Iron Father

Lt with Iron Stone

Astraeus Tank

 

other stuff.

[Khornestar]

So perhaps, as suggested, we could see a list that demonstrates these lack of weaknesses in practice?

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

Like I keep on saying, show me an actual list that makes a current top list like Eldar Flyers irrelevant and which gets probable wins against plaguebearer/smite spam, GSC shenanigans and the shield drone nonsense of Tau and then we can talk about what its weaknesses might be. When we keep talking in these hypotheticals anyone can always come up with an answer to everything without having to demonstrate how to fit all these different things into a single list. Getting it all into a list is the problem, it always is when you have a strong codex with loads of great choices. This is always how it goes when a new strong codex drops, we see people thinking it is unplayably good in the abstract because they do not look at any concrete list examples vs the current top lists.

 

 

Iron Father

Lt with Iron Stone

Astraeus Tank

 

other stuff.

 

 

So barebones that is about 900 of a 2000 point list, what else are you taking? You need another HQ to fill out the Supreme Command or are you not bothering with the chapter tactic on the superheavy?

 

so far that is 1 overkilled Eldar Flyer per turn until they put the hurt on your tank -  which as it has the fly keyword they surely will.

[MeltaRange]

I just threw this list together.  I like the Astraeus for IH because it's going to be extremely hard to take down with the Ironstone + 6 wounds healing per turn.  Plus, it's a giant LOS blocking piece.

 

Techmarine

Lt w/ Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra

 

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

 

Redemptor Dread (Gatling)

 

Eliminators w/ IBC

Executioner

TFC

 

Iron Father

Primaris Lt w/ Power Sword & Ironstone

Librarian

Astraeus Super Heavy Tank

[Lord Blackwood]

are you not concerned that only 15 intercessors wont be enough to take objectives ?  Sure they will be durable but they seem to be walking yea? 

[Triszin]

jaws of the world wolf might be ok against their infantry

[MegaVolt87]

are you not concerned that only 15 intercessors wont be enough to take objectives ?  Sure they will be durable but they seem to be walking yea? 

 

I guess he can draw after they both kill off all each others troops. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

I just threw this list together.  I like the Astraeus for IH because it's going to be extremely hard to take down with the Ironstone + 6 wounds healing per turn.  Plus, it's a giant LOS blocking piece.

 

Techmarine

Lt w/ Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra

 

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

5 Intercessors, Bolt Rifle

 

Redemptor Dread (Gatling)

 

Eliminators w/ IBC

Executioner

TFC

 

Iron Father

Primaris Lt w/ Power Sword & Ironstone

Librarian

Astraeus Super Heavy Tank

 

OK, interesting and I tend to agree the Astreus is either good with IH or not at all.

 

So let us look at that Eldar Flyer matchup first.

You have no captain so no option of the Chapter Master strat, so it is going to be hard to mitigate your poor to hit chances against the flyers.

You lack table presence so the flyers go where they want when they want. 

You have one big tough tank which can reliably overkill a flyer per turn with that big gun that ignores penalties to hit. Your other tank will just get lightning fast reactions vs its main gun. Other than that you lack respectable anti-tank so you are generally fishing for 5's to both hit and wound. The Eldar list has 11 vehicles you need to worry about so if you are not killing more than 2 per turn you are in a world of pain.

 

Once you start running out of other models the only way to screen your characters from flyers is to hide against the table edge using the superheavy as your screen. You can possibly last out the game this way eliminating one flyer per turn but I think you lose on objectives.

 

So the baseline of "be able to beat the thing that was apparently wrecking marine armies at LGT"  is not looking great to me. Tell me what I am missing, explain how this list kills more than 2 flyers per turn reliably enough to win? I agree it is tough, it will actually be a challenge for the flyers to take your executioner off in one turn, they probably need jinx and/or doom to reliably do that. But I do not see how you avoid getting pinned in a corner keeping your characters alive while the rest of your list just gets picked up and put back in the box by all those high AP shooting attacks.

 

Also without chapter master rerolls to hit I think it struggles like crazy against the plaguebearer spam list. You can slow one unit of them right down with the thunderfire strat but what are you actually hurting them with while you are taking smite spam in return? My guess is that T2 they deep strike their second unit 9" from your lines, move their smiters up behind that and go to work on you softening you up. Mostly hitting on 5+ you are not going to be doing a great deal to them in return.

[chapter master 454]

Chapter Master is such an amazing strat now, going from hot garbage to now imo a must take stratagem which kind of undermines one of the big things Iron Hands like to shout. The change to just being re-roll hit rolls was a big change (for those unaware, the stratagem used to say "Re-roll failed hit rolls". This was important as due to how modifiers work and re-rolls are done before modifiers are applied, it meant if you had -1/-2 to hit rolls then despite rolling a 3 for a marine which in this case would miss, by baseline would hit and thus cannot be re-rolled).

 

In regards to the flyer problem, I personally think the best response is actually centurions, grav variant. Centurions tank each pulse laser perfectly (3 to 4 wounds being the key here) and the same goes for star cannons (D3 damage capping out at 3 meaning they can't one hit clean kill) and on the return you have your centurions unleash fury, possibly opting for maybe some chaplain tech for the focus litany along with captain support, activate grav-amp strat and split fire should be able to erase 2-3 flyers with full out volleys. Really depends on how hard you want to bank on your centurions (going for 3 per flyer from a squad or 2 per flyer).

Naturally you go for full bulk on your centurions however I am not ENTIRELY in the know of tournament rules so you backing to the centurion blitz may vary. For the traits, I would actually scrap using iron hands raw and maybe even only as the ancestor (they aren't charging and the 6+++ isn't going to matter here, they are hyucking out 3D shots everywhere) and picking Stealthy and Long-Range Marksmen. The Stealthy levels the playing field against the flyers (by maths, it works the same as their -1 to hit) and since it is active at the same distance they want to stay, it will ether be active or effectively work as a "counter". The extra 3" imo have so far in my playtesting being extremely powerful, just helps (even if you only count it for the centurions, it effectively acts as giving them 3" of movement).

 

Big issues are ofcourse the vect "you activated my trap card" stratagem so we need something to bait it with as even though grav amp is only 1CP, it will do a TON of work on those flyers (the wounding of rate of the grav cannons goes to better than if you were wounding 4+) and the AP4 from grav cannons getting boosted by dev doc will negate their armour (something the 2+ centurions will still have against their shots). So how do we get them to sink the stratagem? Suppose we can double threat the player by means of our exploding wound stratagem but it is only for one target I believe so maybe pick on a key target early? not too sure there.

 

You can claim board presence by means of various units, could always take drop pods with cheapo troops and hold them until turn 2-3 and take objectives that way (like only maybe 2 pods at most with 2 squads of 5 per).

 

However it is just overall a really hard list to approach because it is so un-interactive. They go first and can always get LoS with the flyers because their movement stat may as well say "20 - board" and with double pivot you can't even bait them into the corners. You go first and all they do is sit ALL the way at the back of the board completely unreachable and even if you could you are shooting at -2 to get them. Really you can't win as the amount of ranged firepower and range you need just isn't present in marines unless somehow you can make land raiders work XD (trust me, I try REALLY hard at that. I'll let you know if I get somewhere!)

[Happy-inquisitor]

Chapter Master is such an amazing strat now, going from hot garbage to now imo a must take stratagem which kind of undermines one of the big things Iron Hands like to shout. The change to just being re-roll hit rolls was a big change (for those unaware, the stratagem used to say "Re-roll failed hit rolls". This was important as due to how modifiers work and re-rolls are done before modifiers are applied, it meant if you had -1/-2 to hit rolls then despite rolling a 3 for a marine which in this case would miss, by baseline would hit and thus cannot be re-rolled).

 

In regards to the flyer problem, I personally think the best response is actually centurions, grav variant. Centurions tank each pulse laser perfectly (3 to 4 wounds being the key here) and the same goes for star cannons (D3 damage capping out at 3 meaning they can't one hit clean kill) and on the return you have your centurions unleash fury, possibly opting for maybe some chaplain tech for the focus litany along with captain support, activate grav-amp strat and split fire should be able to erase 2-3 flyers with full out volleys. Really depends on how hard you want to bank on your centurions (going for 3 per flyer from a squad or 2 per flyer).

Naturally you go for full bulk on your centurions however I am not ENTIRELY in the know of tournament rules so you backing to the centurion blitz may vary. For the traits, I would actually scrap using iron hands raw and maybe even only as the ancestor (they aren't charging and the 6+++ isn't going to matter here, they are hyucking out 3D shots everywhere) and picking Stealthy and Long-Range Marksmen. The Stealthy levels the playing field against the flyers (by maths, it works the same as their -1 to hit) and since it is active at the same distance they want to stay, it will ether be active or effectively work as a "counter". The extra 3" imo have so far in my playtesting being extremely powerful, just helps (even if you only count it for the centurions, it effectively acts as giving them 3" of movement).

 

Big issues are ofcourse the vect "you activated my trap card" stratagem so we need something to bait it with as even though grav amp is only 1CP, it will do a TON of work on those flyers (the wounding of rate of the grav cannons goes to better than if you were wounding 4+) and the AP4 from grav cannons getting boosted by dev doc will negate their armour (something the 2+ centurions will still have against their shots). So how do we get them to sink the stratagem? Suppose we can double threat the player by means of our exploding wound stratagem but it is only for one target I believe so maybe pick on a key target early? not too sure there.

 

You can claim board presence by means of various units, could always take drop pods with cheapo troops and hold them until turn 2-3 and take objectives that way (like only maybe 2 pods at most with 2 squads of 5 per).

 

However it is just overall a really hard list to approach because it is so un-interactive. They go first and can always get LoS with the flyers because their movement stat may as well say "20 - board" and with double pivot you can't even bait them into the corners. You go first and all they do is sit ALL the way at the back of the board completely unreachable and even if you could you are shooting at -2 to get them. Really you can't win as the amount of ranged firepower and range you need just isn't present in marines unless somehow you can make land raiders work XD (trust me, I try REALLY hard at that. I'll let you know if I get somewhere!)

 

We can all agree that the Eldar Flyer match is hugely frustrating to play and very difficult to win. That said there are a few things which give you tools to do the job.

 

1. Full rerolls are the biggest upgrade marines got against stacked penalties to hit. Yes taking a Captain rather negates the value of part of the IH super-doctrine but you are just going to have to do like every other chapter and have a Captain and 2 spare CP for when you come up against one of these lists

2. Table control. You need to be able to either deny the table with a mass of bodies (not really a marine option) or be able to dominate the middle of the table with 36" range weapons so it is really hard for those flyers to play keep-away or hide and seek. 

3. If you are anywhere but a table edge it is hard to keep your characters alive because they need 360 degree screening at all times. Over-dependence on characters is a weakness vs flyers unless your screening is incredible (you are not Tau, your screening is not incredible)

4. Alternatively you need hyper-mobility to bypass the flyers, kill the ground forces and Boots them. That is a weakness of most IH list ideas I have seen and of the one suggested here so I did not even discuss this in my response post.

 

So I still think Eldar Flyers are a weakness of IH and have still not seen a list to persuade me otherwise. Some of this is just attempting to over-rely on IH boosts like the inherent reroll and not biting the bullet and bringing the Captain you need even though he renders that part of your IH bonus rather redundant. Some of it is that IH do not have the mobility tricks of e.g. Raven Guard and are limited in their strategy for dealing with this threat.

 

Taking this back to the topic of the thread; Iron Hands have neither great table control nor any special mobility. Those are weaknesses. They tend to rely heavily on characters for their super-durability, that is a potentially exploitable weakness and it tends to exaggerate their lack of table control.

 

For reference it is worth reading Matt Root's take on Eldar Flyers https://nightsatthegametable.com/blog/2019/09/11/how-to-beat-eldar-flier-spam-by-matt-root/

 

There may well be a list that beats the current top lists and is therefore at least a candidate for "OP thing with no weaknesses". To be fair that is entirely possible, what is happening here so far is not demonstrating that.

[Ishagu]

Iron Hands Astraeus would be so good. Always a 5++, reduced damage, 7 - 9 wounds repaired a turn, hitting on a 2+, etc

 

You can add an additional Repulsor Executioner to a list with one, and still have plenty of infantry and units in it...

 

-Iron Father

-Primaris Librarian

-Primaris Lieutenant

-10 Intercessors, Power Fist

-10 Intercessors, Power Fist

-10 Intercessors, Power Fist

-Thunderfire Cannon + Techamarine Gunner

-Repulsor Executioner

-Astraeus Tank

[Xerxus]

I think that a Primaris Lieutenant might be too fragile as a relic carrier. At risk to die to a Kelermorph.

[casb1965]

As nice as the Astraeus tank is I think at £ 200+ it won't see a lot of action.

 

It's good to theorise lists but I doubt ones that will be played en masse will have an Astraeus in them.

 

Otherwise the winning list would be

 

Battalion detachment

Iron Father

Techmarine

3 x 5 Scout Snipers with camo cloaks

 

Super Heavy detachment

3 x Astraeus tanks.

Edited September 18, 2019 by casb1965

[chapter master 454]

The idea of going for a boots win would likely not be a bad idea but the issue tends towards them giving all their foot slogging tax units (because they would take all flyers if they could!) a very good amount of cover and protection and one of the big pains in the back end is character rule working with flying units (again character rule needing even more additions. At this rate all the "just bring back joining squads" people are going to have a case on the basis of how many rules involve how, when and what can target characters!) which means what you really need to is something hyper aggressive and that jump on the entirety of the enemies ground forces from turn one.

Oh look GSC do that better.

 

I would seriously like to take a GW designer and point at these flyer spam lists and then point at the stalker and hunter and give them the gordon ramsay "Look at these! This is terrible and garbage. People don't even take them when flyers are the meta problem but instead take standard units that just fire better quality shots. THESE ARE WORTHLESS. They need to be Anti-air, not a Handicap!" (the more forum friendly version, would be more swearing naturally).

Like seriously, these supposed anti-air units aren't very good at their job...like REALLY bad at it. Maybe if they could intercept flyers and hurt them badly (like when flyers move while within range and LoS of these tanks, those tanks can interrupt and fire at them once per phase...not once per flyer just once per phase when I flyer with min move does move, it gets to fire at them).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Um, what? Have you ever used the Stalker or Hunter? Because they're great units that have been criminally underrated by the community at large for a while. The new strat for them makes them even better, the Stalker in particular especially in DevDoc.

[MeltaRange]

So just to quickly reset expectations in this thread, we're saying that IH aren't "too good" because they don't have a 100% ez mode win button to beat Eldar Flying Circus?  So their "weakness" is that they aren't literally God Mode?

 

I don't buy that.  Why is literally everyone saying they are "the best" then?  Reese from Frontline, Lawrence and the rest of the TTT crew, miniwargaming, whatever.  Everyone is saying IH is clearly the best by a large margin.

 

What other Space Marine army do you think is better?

Edited September 18, 2019 by MeltaRange

[Rodrick]

So just to quickly reset expectations in this thread, we're saying that IH aren't "too good" because they don't have a 100% ez mode win button to beat Eldar Flying Circus?  So their "weakness" is that they aren't literally God Mode?

 

I don't buy that.  Why is literally everyone saying they are "the best" then?  Reese from Frontline, Lawrence and the rest of the TTT crew, miniwargaming, whatever.  Everyone is saying IH is clearly the best by a large margin.

 

What other Space Marine army do you think is better?

 

we should wait and see dont we?   ,  imperial fist and succesors and salamanders are still in line

[Lord Blackwood]

So just to quickly reset expectations in this thread, we're saying that IH aren't "too good" because they don't have a 100% ez mode win button to beat Eldar Flying Circus?  So their "weakness" is that they aren't literally God Mode?

 

I don't buy that.  Why is literally everyone saying they are "the best" then?  Reese from Frontline, Lawrence and the rest of the TTT crew, miniwargaming, whatever.  Everyone is saying IH is clearly the best by a large margin.

 

What other Space Marine army do you think is better?

I  feel like this is a shifting of the goal posts. 

 

You were asked to produce a list that hypothetically encompassed all oft he Iron Hands Strengths , one that would make them unbeatable. 

 

You produced a list that included an almost prohibitively expensive super heavy tank , that list was compared to the current lists that are winning events , and it was found wanting. 

 

If you would have paid attention to the response to your list the flaws of the iron hands were laid out by happy-inquisitor. 

 

Maybe you should draft another list that demonstrates what you mean ? 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Lord Blackwood

[emperorpants]

I agree with melta.  Everything I see nowadays from the big name players and "professionals" is how Iron Hands are clearly the best by a large margin.  Personally I've seen one game with someone trying out the rules locally and they curp stomped an imperial knights/gurad list.  I know it's one game and the Iron Hands player went first, but that game pretty much put all my fears about Iron Hands on display.

 

They were really tough to kill

 

They hit really hard

 

Stalker bolt rifles actually put in a lot of work 

 

a levi dread chewed up things when charged

 

They were actually mobile

 

Sorry, I don't have the exact lists, but the IH had a proxy for the Forge father, a Levi, executioners x 2, stalker intercessors, etc.  The knight was a castellan.  I know that a single game really proves nothing, just a bit of food for though.  I was playing a game with my ultras on a different table, so that is just what I gleaned from being close by.  

 

Also, I mean, I could put together a list as well, but as melta said, just because it doesn't auto stomp eldar flier spam does not mean it's not op in general.

Edited September 18, 2019 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

 

So just to quickly reset expectations in this thread, we're saying that IH aren't "too good" because they don't have a 100% ez mode win button to beat Eldar Flying Circus?  So their "weakness" is that they aren't literally God Mode?

 

I don't buy that.  Why is literally everyone saying they are "the best" then?  Reese from Frontline, Lawrence and the rest of the TTT crew, miniwargaming, whatever.  Everyone is saying IH is clearly the best by a large margin.

 

What other Space Marine army do you think is better?

I  feel like this is a shifting of the goal posts. 

 

You were asked to produce a list that hypothetically encompassed all oft he Iron Hands Strengths , one that would make them unbeatable. 

 

You produced a list that included an almost prohibitively expensive super heavy tank , that list was compared to the current lists that are winning events , and it was found wanting. 

 

If you would have paid attention to the response to your list the flaws of the iron hands were laid out by happy-inquisitor. 

 

Maybe you should draft another list that demonstrates what you mean ? 

 

 

To be fair, just because a few people in a thread haven't come up with a meta shaking list that is an auto win on everything on demand doesn't mean much or really prove anything.  Imo, the point always was that with rules this powerful, top players are going to have a field day and will come up with lists that have no weaknesses and will be op.  Other people will see these lists and follow suit.  

 

In casual settings it's easy to make a list that will tear apart other casual lists in an un fun way.  Iron Hands lists will be really hard for casual players to compete with due to the ease of use and easy to see combos.  At the competitive level, imo, it's pretty easy to extrapolate that top players will find amazing and broken ways to employ these rules into bonkers lists that are going to be op, which will then get copied or improved upon.  The sheer breadth of options that can be taken and easily included and the power of these tools is staggering.  

 

I mean, a few of the lists already mentioned are very powerful and those are made on demand.  What about top players with time to think?  If the prelim lists are that strong, what kind of insane combos and strats will be found?  Again, with so much readily available to Iron Hands, as I've said before, they won't struggle with bringing their whole toolbox to the table.

 

I mean, if you really want I can put together a list too, but again, I'm a rando on the internet.  I'm not a top player on the tourney scene whose lists will be copied and improved on.  Any list I make likely won't compare to top level players.  But that doesn't mean it isn't easy to see how top level people will abuse these incredible rules.  I can make an oppressive as gak list in casuals and local level competitive though that will crush casuals and semi-competitives.  I think we all could. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by emperorpants

[Lord Blackwood]

I  feel like the doomsaying is unwarranted.  

I am a casual player this is my casual list that I am hoping to play against my other casual friend whos bringing his casual death guard. 
Lets pick this one apart with a casual setting in mind. 


Battalion 1 
Iron Father 
Primaris Librarian 

3x Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles 

Redemptor with Dakka 

3x Elminator with las fusil 

Hellblaster Squad (6) 

Battalion 2 
Primaris Chapter Master ( Relic Stalker Bolter ? ) 
Primaris LT  ( Ironstone ? ) 

3x Intercessors with Stalkers 

Leviathan 1x Stormcannon 1x Drill hand ( Mortarion in  mind ? ) 

Executioner , Laser Destroyer 


 

[emperorpants]

I  feel like the doomsaying is unwarranted.  

 

I am a casual player this is my casual list that I am hoping to play against my other casual friend whos bringing his casual death guard. 

Lets pick this one apart with a casual setting in mind. 

 

 

Battalion 1 

Iron Father 

Primaris Librarian 

 

3x Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles 

 

Redemptor with Dakka 

 

3x Elminator with las fusil 

 

Hellblaster Squad (6) 

 

Battalion 2 

Primaris Chapter Master ( Relic Stalker Bolter ? ) 

Primaris LT  ( Ironstone ? ) 

 

3x Intercessors with Stalkers 

 

Leviathan 1x Stormcannon 1x Drill hand ( Mortarion in  mind ? ) 

 

Executioner , Laser Destroyer 

 

 

 

Well, what is the casual list your friend is bringing?  I know it's death guard, but it's hard to say how a casual list will do against another casual list when you only know the units from one half of the battle. 

 

Also, as far as the levi is concerned, from every test I've seen or heard about, it has been unkillable to the point of demoralization.  A stronger version of the levi dread would be the double storm cannon array as opposed to the drill, but you're keeping it casual, so whatevs.

Edited September 18, 2019 by emperorpants