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Space Wolves Combat Doctrines: What Say You, Vlka?


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#1
Karack Blackstone

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Hello all.

 

Space Wolves Combat Doctrines.

 

What do you hope for?

 

Many appear to think we will get some variation of:

- Hunt

- Stalk / Attack

- Kill

 

Hunt should be some benefit to moving

Stalk / Attack should be either a bonus to charge distances, or, reroll one or both charge dice, or, maybe, something akin to what the Wolves do, ala 6th Ed. Apoc rules: Stubborn and Relentless, with the ability to fully reroll failed charges. Yes, we can dream. Thus this thread.

Kill should be some kind of bonus to Attacks or maybe on the charge all melee weapons gain -1 AP. That'd be fun.

 

So, ideas.

 

Hunt: Treat Rapid Fire weapons as Assault 2? Could be fun!

Stalk / Attack: Reroll failed charges, or a flat minimum to either charge dice. Say, 2d3 plus 6 inches

Kill: I seriously think -1 AP is going to be strong to charging weapons in melee.

 

Because...

 

If individual Great Companies are themed around their Wolf Lords, say Logan gets +1 to Hit flat base for all WG tagged units, or all Pack Leaders too.

That means 2+ TH/SS TDA WG, 1+ CSwd WGPL, maybe even 1+ GHPL, BCPL, etc.! IPL with a Chainsword suddenly hitting on 1's (fails on 1's, might gain a reroll) with -1 AP on the CSwd would be brutal, let alone what a BC pack can do on the charge now!

 

As if I recall BC's are now 3 or 4 A's on the charge, 1 Base, +1 CSwd, +1 Shock Assault, +1 BC Charge Bonus, well, that's 4 dice if I recall correctly, and if they all hit on 2+ with AP -1 per strike, THAT should bring the pain!

 

Other ideas, Hunt, Stalk/Attack, Kill, big grab pool.

 

+1 to Hit Shooting ranged weapons

+1 to Shoot Pistols on the charge?

AP -1 to Ranged weapons such as Boltguns instead of treating Rapid Fire weapons as Assault 2

Double Tap Pistols while stuck in / when locked in combat

 

Example:

 

10 man GH pack, WGPL, GHPL, 8 GH's

7 BG's, 2 PG's, 9 BP's

GHPL w/ PF

WGPL

CSwd / SS

 

Hunt: Assault 2 BG's and PG's

Attack: Reroll failed charges, OR, 2d3 + 6" on the charge

Kill: AP -1 to all melee weapons on the charge

 

Logan GC, Stock SM Combat Doctrines

 

14 BG shots, hit on 3's, Assault 2

4 PG shots, hit on 3's, Assault 2

 

Charge. 2d3 + 6"? Reroll failed charge distance?

 

31 CSwd Attacks, AP -1, 2's to Hit

3 PF Attacks, AP -4, 3's to Hit? I think?

 

That's going to hurt.

 

And, in closing, if the Wolves have any single thing that would make sense, it's this...

 

Pack Tactics: The Combat Doctrine for each pack in the Hunt, Stalk, Kill lineup is whatever is most advantageous to the pack using one of the options above, at each turn phase, moving through normal turn sequence, per pack, per player.

Basically, three packs? One charges, one shoots, one stuck in? Each use the best for them at that time.

 

I'm getting psyched, I just hope GW does us players a great job with our Codex whenever it comes out, hopefully sooner rather than later!

 

Thoughts please?

 

Edit:

 

Had a mistake, fixed.


Edited by Karack Blackstone, 17 September 2019 - 10:30 PM.


#2
Karack Blackstone

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No one else with ideas on this currently?

 

I realize the recent overpass isn't looking great, but with the new Codex books having to come out sooner rather than later, I figure GW will want to avoid shooting itself in the foot over this and doing something so drastically wrong as to allow the DA, BA, and SW's to be left in the dust so hard, so far, so long.

 

Still, if they don't update the Wolves rules well and soon, they will certainly get some justifiable cooling of the purchases for quite some time!



#3
Iain_Stormeyes

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Honestly, if we just get something like +1 to Advance and Charge Roles, then I'm good.  We don't really need AP with our access to Hammers, Frost weapons, and Heavy weapons.


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#4
Jonas Stromclaw

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I’d lay odds to them being a split between foot mobility boosts (like a +1 to advance or charge rolls) and close combat boosts (like -1 AP melee attacks). Honestly I’m more hoping for the later; Grey Hunters need something to stand out more from regular tax marines and it fits with the most recent characterizations of the wolves.



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#5
PeteySödes

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As much as a just can’t bring myself to wishlist anymore, I’ll repeat my wish for preventing fallbacks. Maybe as an assault doctrine. I wouldn’t mind some completely different mechanic in place of doctrines at all though.
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#6
bluescope

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In my opinion, GW won't repeat their design. BA, DA and SW would get something different. The question is, how long will we wait.

#7
Wolf Guard Dan

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I agree that they probably won’t repeat the design for our combat doctrine equivalent. I hope they do though. I want the AP.

Everything else mentioned could be a stratagem.

If they kept combat doctrine for us I believe our bonus will come for the assault doctrine but it probably should be the tactical doctrine.

The only character likely to get a change in rules will be the rumored primaris Ragnar. I don’t think too many of the other marine characters got a change in rules outside of what got a new model or Bobby G.
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#8
Splog

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HUNT - Advance rolls of 1 and 2 count as 3, and enemy units set up as reinforcements have +3” to their minimum setup distance from this unit

BREAK - unmodified melee to-hit rolls of 6 result in two successful hits

ROUT - enemy units, except flyers, cannot fallback and enemy units in CC must roll an extra d6 for morale tests

Edited by Splog, 19 September 2019 - 10:06 PM.


#9
Karack Blackstone

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HUNT - Advance rolls of 1 and 2 count as 3, and enemy units set up as reinforcements have +3” to their minimum setup distance from this unit

BREAK - unmodified melee to-hit rolls of 6 result in two successful hits

ROUT - enemy units, except flyers, cannot fallback and enemy units must roll an extra d6 for morale tests

 

Hunt I like.

 

Break seems... cool, but I'm not sure that's the SW way of fighting. Still, nice and strong.

 

Rout I think is too good with the bonus die; I'd make it +1 to the die result on the roll. THAT is fluffy, fits the bill, and is also extremely prescient thanks to the effect of the solid charge nature of the Rout.



#10
Splog

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You might still not like it, but I’ve edited ROUT to what I had intended; the impact on morale checks only applies to enemy units in CC (with a SW unit)

#11
Iain_Stormeyes

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HUNT - Advance rolls of 1 and 2 count as 3, and enemy units set up as reinforcements have +3” to their minimum setup distance from this unit

BREAK - unmodified melee to-hit rolls of 6 result in two successful hits

ROUT - enemy units, except flyers, cannot fallback and enemy units must roll an extra d6 for morale tests

 

Hunt I like.

 

Break seems... cool, but I'm not sure that's the SW way of fighting. Still, nice and strong.

 

Rout I think is too good with the bonus die; I'd make it +1 to the die result on the roll. THAT is fluffy, fits the bill, and is also extremely prescient thanks to the effect of the solid charge nature of the Rout.

 

I think Break seems very true to form.  In-game we see the BA have the higher quality attacks with +1 to Wound, but Wolves tend to be a flurry of extra attacks that are still accurate with +1 to Hit.  But I don't think Break is good enough as is.  Only triggering on 6's in melee?  

 

I'd rather see it as "Models in melee get +1 to their Attacks characteristic."



#12
One Two Wolf

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I don't want to derail anything but I have had a thought I quite like vis a vi our 'doctrines'.

What about making our characters doctrine holders. Something like three named characters in an army unlocks local, say 12 inch buffs like:

Ragnar: if he makes a charge one unit within 12 auto charge, second unit add 3 to charge roll, third unit add 2, fourth unit add 1.

Meanwhile in Russia,

Bjorn: all heavy weapons in 12 move without penalty/add 1 to hit rolls.

Njal: if casts or denies in previous phase all units in 12 are plus one to cast against next opponent turn.

And so on. It would mean, for a good general, an awesomely dynamic game every time you play. And for my money, disclaimer wise, while making character models is super fun, named characters are a SW dimension I just keep coming back to. Maybe Bjorn should get a 4++ and give that as his 12 inch thing, dunno. It was just a thought - give doctrines, keep us unique.

Edit: typos

Edited by One Two Wolf, 20 September 2019 - 03:17 AM.

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#13
NightHowler

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I actually like that a lot

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#14
One Two Wolf

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Ragnar has to take overwatch. Its a double edged frost sword, that one.

Edit: if harald got the same as ragnar AND then if TWC got on the hunt, holy bejeepers that's sweet.

Edited by One Two Wolf, 20 September 2019 - 03:57 AM.


#15
GrFlur

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I've got a wild idea ...

 

What about ... "you get your failed dice and sum them together until you get a total sum of six 6, This counts as an exit. Each 6 you can put together sum another exit"

 

You roll 3+ for: 1 2 3 4 5 6 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 1 3 4 1

you get : 3456 345 34 34 succes  11 

you get: 12 2 12 1 1 fails 7

 

so you go for : 2+2+2 = 6 so another exit

 

the final result is 12 succes hits or wounds or both

 

Myabe it's too much horde style?


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#16
Triszin

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I don't want to derail anything but I have had a thought I quite like vis a vi our 'doctrines'.

What about making our characters doctrine holders. Something like three named characters in an army unlocks local, say 12 inch buffs like:

Ragnar: if he makes a charge one unit within 12 auto charge, second unit add 3 to charge roll, third unit add 2, fourth unit add 1.

Meanwhile in Russia,

Bjorn: all heavy weapons in 12 move without penalty/add 1 to hit rolls.

Njal: if casts or denies in previous phase all units in 12 are plus one to cast against next opponent turn.

And so on. It would mean, for a good general, an awesomely dynamic game every time you play. And for my money, disclaimer wise, while making character models is super fun, named characters are a SW dimension I just keep coming back to. Maybe Bjorn should get a 4++ and give that as his 12 inch thing, dunno. It was just a thought - give doctrines, keep us unique.

Edit: typos


I like this. "Doctrines" vehicle delivered by our hq's.

It's sagas turned up to 11 . Which makes a lot of sense to me.
banana

#17
PeteySödes

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I don't want to derail anything but I have had a thought I quite like vis a vi our 'doctrines'.

What about making our characters doctrine holders. Something like three named characters in an army unlocks local, say 12 inch buffs like:

Ragnar: if he makes a charge one unit within 12 auto charge, second unit add 3 to charge roll, third unit add 2, fourth unit add 1.

Meanwhile in Russia,

Bjorn: all heavy weapons in 12 move without penalty/add 1 to hit rolls.

Njal: if casts or denies in previous phase all units in 12 are plus one to cast against next opponent turn.

And so on. It would mean, for a good general, an awesomely dynamic game every time you play. And for my money, disclaimer wise, while making character models is super fun, named characters are a SW dimension I just keep coming back to. Maybe Bjorn should get a 4++ and give that as his 12 inch thing, dunno. It was just a thought - give doctrines, keep us unique.

Edit: typos


I get it and it’s a cool idea but I can’t say I like leaning so hard on special characters when they seem to be hanging the heads and axe over the ones I like. Let’s not derail with death stuff again, but that’s just my thought for that.

If it was retooled Sagas I’d be ok with it I guess but again with snipers and stuff it’d suck to get shut down with such a narrow style of play.
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#18
Triszin

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Sagas turned to 11.


And pre bake "doctrines" into our units.

Pre baked rules for
Wolf gaurd
Blood claws
Grey hunters
Long fangs
Stalker packs

And find/add new types for primaris

Edited by Triszin, 20 September 2019 - 12:38 PM.

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banana

#19
Black_Star

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If we get doctrines that are similar to the vanilla codex I'd at least want a twist in the order for example.

1. Fangs unleashed - devastor
2. Glory for the claws- Assault
3. Wisdom of the hunter - tactical

That said I'm not a big fan of the 3 stage bonus system it just takes to long to get to the 3rd one (I've play tested white scars a few games).

I'd prefer two steps or even just a static bonus that affects some units differently.
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#20
TSkouboe

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I don't want to derail anything but I have had a thought I quite like vis a vi our 'doctrines'.

What about making our characters doctrine holders. Something like three named characters in an army unlocks local, say 12 inch buffs like:

It's an idea in a great direction. I think it's too advanced, though.

It could be simplified by letting all our characters get a warlord trait. They'll all be chasing sagas, and the successful ones with turn into auras.



#21
PeteySödes

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I don't want to derail anything but I have had a thought I quite like vis a vi our 'doctrines'.

What about making our characters doctrine holders. Something like three named characters in an army unlocks local, say 12 inch buffs like:

It's an idea in a great direction. I think it's too advanced, though.

It could be simplified by letting all our characters get a warlord trait. They'll all be chasing sagas, and the successful ones with turn into auras.

 

 

I dig that, it echoes our previous abilities to take way more HQs than others.



#22
Triszin

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So long as the named hqs have unique versions of the warlord rules.

Then custom ones get different ones.

Hero of the bloodclaws should be a strange rule that boosts claws via Lukas.

If successful make their ld 9, and add +1 to hit?

Or have it add lukas's rules to the squad if succesful

Edited by Triszin, 20 September 2019 - 03:40 PM.

banana

#23
Wolf Guard Dan

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That should be more of a stratagem. 1 CP per extra trait. 5-6 characters all getting warlord traits for nothing would be insanely awesome.

I still prefer the -1 AP of the current doctrines. Anything else would probably be too powerful or too weak compared to that. I’ll give it go though.
Hunt- May move and advance and count as stationary.
Stalk- -1 AP to bolt weapons (whatever is the same as current tac doctrine) Or advance and count all rapid fire as assault.
Kill- +1 to charge rolls. Re roll failed over watch shots.

If we got normal combat doctrines and a single buff to one of them I would make it the tac or assault. Advance and charge. Count rapid fire as assault if you advance.
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#24
Ratherdashing

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It's a tough call because the main thing most Melee armies *need* is a way to get into combat. But I really don't see our "thing" as being hurtling into Melee at breakneck speeds--leave the charge range boosts to the Blood Angels.

So what is "our thing?" To me I'd rather see us as the masters of close range, as in short range shooting balanced with melee. Shooting bolters in melee is pretty fluffy with that but is more of a little gimmick than anything impactful. Counter attack fit the bill but relied on the enemy to do something and that's always weak: no one would charge us unless they thought they were going to win with or without counter attack anyway. Heroic Intervention is a slightly better "trap card" for when we get charged, but not an army defining thing. I would like our doctrines to reflect close range shooting and combat equally, but I really don't know how.


The other things that "make" Space Wolves to me are our mission (Executioners, aka the Space Marines who kill Space Marines, and the hunters of malificarum) and our heroes. Sagas are great and having them on all characters would be even better. I remember in 6th edition it really felt like every Grey Hunter was a hero of his own right, especially since compared to other Marines we could take more melee weapons and plasma pistols on our non-Character units. Maybe giving Deny the Witch to all our characters would also play into that and the whole malificarum thing.
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#25
TiguriusX

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It's a tough call because the main thing most Melee armies *need* is a way to get into combat. But I really don't see our "thing" as being hurtling into Melee at breakneck speeds--leave the charge range boosts to the Blood Angels.

So what is "our thing?" To me I'd rather see us as the masters of close range, as in short range shooting balanced with melee. Shooting bolters in melee is pretty fluffy with that but is more of a little gimmick than anything impactful. Counter attack fit the bill but relied on the enemy to do something and that's always weak: no one would charge us unless they thought they were going to win with or without counter attack anyway. Heroic Intervention is a slightly better "trap card" for when we get charged, but not an army defining thing. I would like our doctrines to reflect close range shooting and combat equally, but I really don't know how.


The other things that "make" Space Wolves to me are our mission (Executioners, aka the Space Marines who kill Space Marines, and the hunters of malificarum) and our heroes. Sagas are great and having them on all characters would be even better. I remember in 6th edition it really felt like every Grey Hunter was a hero of his own right, especially since compared to other Marines we could take more melee weapons and plasma pistols on our non-Character units. Maybe giving Deny the Witch to all our characters would also play into that and the whole malificarum thing.


Our thing is brutality and acceptable losses to complete an objective

The fluff has wolves charging enemy lines single file with the lead guy acting as a bullet sponge so everyone else makes it safely

Something limiting overwatch to 1 casualty would be unique and useful for us
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