Space Wolves Combat Doctrines: What Say You, Vlka?

[NightHowler]

See, now you guys are getting me thinking about the possibilities, dooming me to disappointment when reality fails to live up.

 

I feel like I need to share a personal story to help make it clear why I don’t like wishlisting.

 

When I was 10 and my little brother was 6, my parents knew my little brother would absolutely love to get a drum set for Christmas. So they did. It was the biggest box under the tree, and it would have been the greatest Christmas present of all time, likely sparking a brilliant and successful career as a drummer for my slightly hyperactive little brother. And he would have LOVED it. It would have been PERFECT. Except I started wishlisting as soon as we saw that big box under the tree. Long story short, I told him I was sure it was a fold-up motorcycle (not a real thing at the time, but I told him that it was a motorcycle you could fold up to fit in a square box) and oh sweet merciful lord of the winter holidays he was ecstatic- a fold up motorcycle was exactly what he suddenly wanted more than anything else on earth, and certainly much more than a boring old drum set.

 

Needless to say, when he unwrapped it Christmas was ruined, as he was not only “not happy” with the flagship gift under the tree, the gift my parents made him wait til last to open, the gift that “would have been” perfect, but he was so upset that it wasn’t a fold-up motorcycle that the crying and wailing and tormented tears of dissatisfaction have echoed across time and space and fundamentally altered the way my family felt about Christmas to this day.

 

TLDR: wishlisting leads to disappointment when joy might otherwise have been the outcome

[PeteySödes]

See, now you guys are getting me thinking about the possibilities, dooming me to disappointment when reality fails to live up.

 

I feel like I need to share a personal story to help make it clear why I don’t like wishlisting.

 

When I was 10 and my little brother was 6, my parents knew my little brother would absolutely love to get a drum set for Christmas. So they did. It was the biggest box under the tree, and it would have been the greatest Christmas present of all time, likely sparking a brilliant and successful career as a drummer for my slightly hyperactive little brother. And he would have LOVED it. It would have been PERFECT. Except I started wishlisting as soon as we saw that big box under the tree. Long story short, I told him I was sure it was a fold-up motorcycle (not a real thing at the time, but I told him that it was a motorcycle you could fold up to fit in a square box) and oh sweet merciful lord of the winter holidays he was ecstatic- a fold up motorcycle was exactly what he suddenly wanted more than anything else on earth, and certainly much more than a boring old drum set.

 

Needless to say, when he unwrapped it Christmas was ruined, as he was not only “not happy” with the flagship gift under the tree, the gift my parents made him wait til last to open, the gift that “would have been” perfect, but he was so upset that it wasn’t a fold-up motorcycle that the crying and wailing and tormented tears of dissatisfaction have echoed across time and space and fundamentally altered the way my family felt about Christmas to this day.

 

TLDR: wishlisting leads to disappointment when joy might otherwise have been the outcome

 

Holy   easy there Alpharius.....

[UniWolf]

See, now you guys are getting me thinking about the possibilities, dooming me to disappointment when reality fails to live up.

 

I feel like I need to share a personal story to help make it clear why I don’t like wishlisting.

 

When I was 10 and my little brother was 6, my parents knew my little brother would absolutely love to get a drum set for Christmas. So they did. It was the biggest box under the tree, and it would have been the greatest Christmas present of all time, likely sparking a brilliant and successful career as a drummer for my slightly hyperactive little brother. And he would have LOVED it. It would have been PERFECT. Except I started wishlisting as soon as we saw that big box under the tree. Long story short, I told him I was sure it was a fold-up motorcycle (not a real thing at the time, but I told him that it was a motorcycle you could fold up to fit in a square box) and oh sweet merciful lord of the winter holidays he was ecstatic- a fold up motorcycle was exactly what he suddenly wanted more than anything else on earth, and certainly much more than a boring old drum set.

 

Needless to say, when he unwrapped it Christmas was ruined, as he was not only “not happy” with the flagship gift under the tree, the gift my parents made him wait til last to open, the gift that “would have been” perfect, but he was so upset that it wasn’t a fold-up motorcycle that the crying and wailing and tormented tears of dissatisfaction have echoed across time and space and fundamentally altered the way my family felt about Christmas to this day.

 

TLDR: wishlisting leads to disappointment when joy might otherwise have been the outcome

this is amazingly evil 

[Triszin]

O.o

[NightHowler]

But the point is, I wasn’t trying to ruin Christmas, I was just having fun imagining what wonderful things could be inside that box. The problem was that I could imagine much more wonderful things than reality could ever provide, which led to pain, tears, and disappointment.

 

And that’s why I worry about wishlisting threads. Because I’ve seen the devastation that can follow.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

Good god, man!

[Karack Blackstone]

We know GW reads these boards.

 

At the very least I'm willing to give it some time.

 

See the discussion of the return of Sagas and the possibility that the SW Combat Doctrines might be Saga like, or Sagas, Deeds, and Battle Tactics.

 

Sagas we know, HQ's lead by example.

 

Deeds are what pack leaders do, and might make WG or PL models able to provide a light HQ like buff.

 

Battle Tactics could be our version of Combat Doctrines.

 

Again, GW reads this site, and these boards.

 

I can dream; they might well read and one day steal the idea for any given army and make it both worthwhile and work.

 

+d6 on that one ROUT ability just seems too much, to reference a prior post. +1 to the die makes far more sense from a play balance perspective.

 

I guess the only real question is, if being let down is so vitally bad, why ever play? It's the entertaining parts of the game that differ for me greatly. I find theorycrafting fun, just to see what GW might one day make of it all, let alone the ideas some others have had, for any given ability. Still, the problem is, yes, wishlisting can be a let down waiting to happen.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I feel as though the SW forum wish listing has only caused most of you to be emotional over the last few years. When Battlezone: Fenris there was wish listing only let down a lot, if not the majority, down. 8th edition release and our codex did the same. Even I am not immune, however my wish is just 1 but I feel that if it was to pass it would break me.

 

I feel as though that the SW as a worldwide whole, are so fractured on what they want that GW doesn't know how to appease them. The 13 companies, that most draw inspiration from, are so different that to appease all would mean another set of mini codex's for themselves.

 

So wish list away, but I implore you to brace yourself if you don't get your wishes. Because I have witnessed some of you go sour, some become belligerent, we even had people leave. I don't want any of these to happen as we have a pretty good brotherhood right now.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I feel as though the SW forum wish listing has only caused most of you to be emotional over the last few years. When Battlezone: Fenris there was wish listing only let down a lot, if not the majority, down. 8th edition release and our codex did the same. Even I am not immune, however my wish is just 1 but I feel that if it was to pass it would break me.

 

I feel as though that the SW as a worldwide whole, are so fractured on what they want that GW doesn't know how to appease them. The 13 companies, that most draw inspiration from, are so different that to appease all would mean another set of mini codex's for themselves.

 

So wish list away, but I implore you to brace yourself if you don't get your wishes. Because I have witnessed some of you go sour, some become belligerent, we even had people leave. I don't want any of these to happen as we have a pretty good brotherhood right now.

 

Absolutely agree. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be disappointed. Let's not let those cretins in Nottingham break our spirits! (Narrator voice: WG Dan does not view them as cretins at all.)

 

The only disappointment I've truly had was how our last release was delayed and it really wasn't anything different than what BA and DA got months earlier.

 

I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts though. It's almost as if we have a mini-playtester group here! I imagine they have to throw a lot of ideas around and see what is appropriate.

 

I think we will be pleased with what we get... whenever we get it. The playtesters GW have recruited are good, intelligent players. A lot of the FLG guys are playtesters. Reece who is the FLG leader plays Space Wolves. I am sure we are going to get some cool stuff with our release! Hopefully the Codex Marines isn't viewed as too much power creep that they dial down the power for the divergent codexes. Although I imagine they playtested them all together. Our update may already be done.

[NightHowler]

I believe we’ll each get a fold-up motorcycle with the next Space Wolves update at a minimum.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I believe we’ll each get a fold-up motorcycle with the next Space Wolves update at a minimum.

Primaris bikers confirmed, with fold up bike for deep striking.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Jarl Caldersson

[temneb]

I don’t see the combat Doctrines going to the divergent chapters. SW have our way, it’s mid to close always with support, but always mid to close. Blood angels try to be chapter adherent, but go crazy and murder stuff. Dark Angels have specific wings to represent their tactical variation. I think we’ll end up with a static boost that is less flexible but more widely spread than the chapter tactics. -1ap Bolter weapons and chain swords maybe.

[Iain_Stormeyes]

I don’t see the combat Doctrines going to the divergent chapters. SW have our way, it’s mid to close always with support, but always mid to close. Blood angels try to be chapter adherent, but go crazy and murder stuff. Dark Angels have specific wings to represent their tactical variation. I think we’ll end up with a static boost that is less flexible but more widely spread than the chapter tactics. -1ap Bolter weapons and chain swords maybe.

I don't think we will get this unless our Primaris Intercessors get to all take Chainswords.  GW isn't throwing a huge amount of support to Olde Marines, so a trait benefiting Grey Hunters and Blood Claws doesn't track.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

 

I don’t see the combat Doctrines going to the divergent chapters. SW have our way, it’s mid to close always with support, but always mid to close. Blood angels try to be chapter adherent, but go crazy and murder stuff. Dark Angels have specific wings to represent their tactical variation. I think we’ll end up with a static boost that is less flexible but more widely spread than the chapter tactics. -1ap Bolter weapons and chain swords maybe.

I don't think we will get this unless our Primaris Intercessors get to all take Chainswords.  GW isn't throwing a huge amount of support to Olde Marines, so a trait benefiting Grey Hunters and Blood Claws doesn't track.

 

Good point Iain. It might end up being a flat -1AP for close combat attacks, Primaris would benefit that way, maybe limited to first round of combat like Hunters Unleashed?

[temneb]

Fair, also might be something like assault weapons-1

[One Two Wolf]

If its anything resembling the codex doctrines with nonsense like hunt or stalk or wolf in the name that's a loss and as weak as water. We're not compliant, a different mechanism is required to see us fight differently. I'm sure there will be a clear difference between codex + supplements and we few 'others'. If not what's the point.

[temneb]

Yeah they really could do any number of things that would be fluffy and powerful.

 

Another thought I had would be have our units count as charging when charged. (Counter attack)

 

Or

 

5++ when charged

 

Or

 

+1 str when charged

 

I’m guessing they’ll focus on counter attack for us, charge for blood angels and each of the wings in DA will get something to represent their fighting style.

[NatBrannigan]

I'm sure the codex will be disappointing, but the later codex supplement and a couple of campaign books will bring us up to par...

 

Without being grumpy now, our codex isn't awful, it just needs some of the wolf specific things to come down in points (frost weapons, certain storm shields etc). I would assume there'll be an extra rule for when the force is mono codex (as per Doctrines, and every army will get one of these rules).

 

Add the ability to outflank Fenrisian and Thunder Wolves, along with our newly confirmed fold up motorbike squad. Maybe let Primaris Sgts and Lt's Frost Weapons? Oh, and Primaris in Storm Wolves / Wulfen in Repulsors etc please :)

[ranulf the revenant]

One thing about combat doctrines in general is a bit weird to me - why the fixed succesion of usable doctrines? The way it is right now, chapters who have synergise well with the devastator doctrine have an edge about chapters who profit more from tactical or assault doctrine. Assault doctrine especially is practically useless if you have to wait until turn 3 to employ it. Why not make it like this - no combat doctrine active in turn one at all, and in the second turn you could just choose whatever? Would be much fairer.

Edited October 21, 2019 by ranulf the revenant

[Karack Blackstone]

One thing about combat doctrines in general is a bit weird to me - why the fixed succesion of usable doctrines? The way it is right now, chapters who have synergise well with the devastator doctrine have an edge about chapters who profit more from tactical or assault doctrine. Assault doctrine especially is practically useless if you have to wait until turn 3 to employ it. Why not make it like this - no combat doctrine active in turn one at all, and in the second turn you could just choose whatever? Would be much fairer.

 

That's the issue with new rules: they have to figure them out, often the hard way.

 

Being free to choose seems maybe broken. However, rearranging the order of the doctrines might make more sense, say for UM's the standard Assault, Tactical, Devastator, but for maybe Black Templars, as an example only, Devastator, Tactical, Assault. Mix and match as needed, per Chapter.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly I think forced progress through the doctrines would balance it. Devastator would have a slight edge but not as much as now. Maybe a 3cp strat to change to your preferred doctrine for a turn but honestly I think forcing the progress through would be best.

[One Two Wolf]

They are doing everything they can to make chapters unique, that is, different from each other. The emphasis on non-soup specialist lists is a great goal. I agree the doctrines are a bit unwieldy right now but give it time. I think as it evolves we will look back and agree the path being walked is a good path. Bumps and strange turns on the way for sure, but it is all heading to a better game.

 

My only *sigh* is just SO MANY GUNS on everything. Pushes points prices up, and watching some of the split fire rolls for one repulsor take longer than the rest of the army is a bit silly. But it's 40k so I'll deal with it.

[lonewolf81]

The thing marines need the most (especialy melee oriented marines like wolves) is survivability so i would like something like that

1. Stalkers hidden in plain sight : 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks when the unit is more than 12" away from opponent. If the unit already has an invulnerable save, always counts as in cover when is more than 12'' away

2. Swift Predators: +1 inch to move advance and charge

3. Going for the kill : during fight phase any roll to hit of a 6 causes additional hit 

Eager to fight: When swift predators is active the unit can advance and charge. If it already has that rule always advances the maximum distance without needing to roll

Nothing overpowered ... just a good boost that is needed for a bottom tier army. Yes this will make units like wulfen and thunderwolves great again but they can still die pretty fast with the volume of fire unleashed in every game of 40k. At least now they get a chance to get into the fight more easily from turn 2

Also compared to other armies our relics and psychic powers are crap so the boost is needed even more

Edited October 22, 2019 by lonewolf81

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the problem with defensive boosts is that it's tough to make them matter. The base doctrines are pure offense and even with a 5++ I think we would get mauled the first two turns.

 

As far as a special tactic I'd like either an ability where all of our units can intervene six inches, or something that bypasses overwatch.

 

I'm really curious to see what they do for us, I'd like something unique but I have doubts that it will be balanced well vs the marine ones.

[Triszin]

Combat doctrines sould be unique to codex chapters.

 

Da, ba, wolves should not get doctrines imho.

 

The should either get super charged chapter tactics, or have special rules always on prebaked into chapter specific units.

 

Wulfen aura, perfect.

 

Give long fangs an aura (+-ap to units long fangs hit/wounded) i.e. for the turn if a long fang pack hit a carni, it is treated as having a -1ap for any other space wolf unit shooting it.

 

Give wolf gaurd an aura. (Advance, reroll multi rolls d6 dam, d3 hits with ranged).

 

Bloodclaws aura, charge after disembarking

 

 

A.i

 

Wolves get "pack" bonuses and auras.

 

Da should get detachment bonuses (dearhwing and such)

Edited October 22, 2019 by Triszin