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Thoughts on Grey Knights and the future


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#1
Ichar

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I have been watching all of the marine codex releases and Psychic Awakening news and rumors/leaks with both hope and dread.  I have hope that with all of the nice upgrades they are doing in the marine books and apparently for the Eldar, that Psychic Awakening may just bring the fixes we have all hoped for.  At the same time, I dread that Grey Knights will be the last faction covered, so we have 10-12 months or more to wait and see if things get better (competitively speaking, GK are my favorite models, army, and lore).  Or worse, that we will get glossed over again.  Anyone else have thoughts on this?  (I hope this is not taken as complaining, I just wonder if anyone else is thinking like this).


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#2
Waking Dreamer

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If I recall, they released the first 8ed C:SM first, and then after that next Imperium codex was Grey Knights. Objectively, it would be unusual for them to put individual upgrades / updates of say DA, BA, SW or DW before us, or even any other Imperium army (besides SoB since they dont even have their Codex 1.0 out yet) for that matter.

 

Not really hoping or expecting, just saying objectively - that's how it "should go" when it comes to releasing Codex 2.0 this time around. 


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#3
Ichar

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If I recall, they released the first 8ed C:SM first, and then after that next Imperium codex was Grey Knights. Objectively, it would be unusual for them to put individual upgrades / updates of say DA, BA, SW or DW before us, or even any other Imperium army (besides SoB since they dont even have their Codex 1.0 out yet) for that matter.

 

Not really hoping or expecting, just saying objectively - that's how it "should go" when it comes to releasing Codex 2.0 this time around. 

I am pretty sure you are correct about the release order.  I remember being so excited that the 8th edition GK codex was happening so soon after the edition dropped.  Little did I know that being released so soon would be detrimental.  I am not sure they knew where everything was going, so they lowballed the first few books; but they seem to have it figured out now.  It would be nice to think that they would keep the same order, but since PA is a narrative style campaign, in my mind there is really no telling when they will get around to us.  It will happen when it fits their story, I just hope it is soon.


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#4
techsoldaten

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If I recall, they released the first 8ed C:SM first, and then after that next Imperium codex was Grey Knights. Objectively, it would be unusual for them to put individual upgrades / updates of say DA, BA, SW or DW before us, or even any other Imperium army (besides SoB since they dont even have their Codex 1.0 out yet) for that matter.

 

Not really hoping or expecting, just saying objectively - that's how it "should go" when it comes to releasing Codex 2.0 this time around. 

I am pretty sure you are correct about the release order.  I remember being so excited that the 8th edition GK codex was happening so soon after the edition dropped.  Little did I know that being released so soon would be detrimental.  I am not sure they knew where everything was going, so they lowballed the first few books; but they seem to have it figured out now.  It would be nice to think that they would keep the same order, but since PA is a narrative style campaign, in my mind there is really no telling when they will get around to us.  It will happen when it fits their story, I just hope it is soon.

 

 

In each edition of 40k, satisfaction with the Codex is inversely proportional to the release order.

 

Over time, satisfaction decays exponentially at a rate derivative of the total number of books.


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#5
TheGoldenThrone

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GW sells models. The future of marines is tied to the future of Primaris marines. Thus far, I haven't seen any evidence of a Primaris strategy for GK. This doesn't mean there isn't such a strategy, but we haven't seen anything that points to one. BA, DA, SW, DW all have Primaris options. Some people love 'em and some hate 'em. But only two marine armies remain without Primaris options: Legion of the Damned and GK.

 

Legion of the Damned, which is already Index only, could easily go the way of Legends and cease to be updated. Nonetheless, GW could build a new fluff-bridge to Primaris if they wanted to. But would they require different plastic molds than other Primaris marines? If so, why on earth would GW invest in expensive new plastic molds for such a small-selling army?

 

This brings me to GK. If we *do* get Primaris models, would they need to be different than standard Primaris marines? I think we would all say yes! And yet, that would also mean expensive new plastic molds for a much smaller product line, when compared against all of the non-GK marines combined. All marine armies but ours (and LotD) currently benefit from Primaris molds. They are part of the future. If we want to be part of the future, either we end up using standard molds augmented by a GK upgrade kit, or GW creates fresh new unit molds just for us. Do you think sales of GK units would be high enough to warrant such an investment? I am not optimistic about the economics of this, at a cost/benefit business level, so I suspect we end up with standard Primaris + an upgrade kit. Which would be much better than ending up with no Primaris at all.

 

I am convinced that if we do not get the Primaris treatment, it means GW is leaving the GK faction behind. I will give it another year or so to see signs of Primaris for GK, before I give up all hope.

 

In the meantime, an updated Codex would be most appreciated! Or even a rules improvement/update as part of a Psychic Awakening release! Maybe our first Primaris model? Maybe Draigo passes through the Rubicon Primaris?


Edited by TheGoldenThrone, 20 September 2019 - 08:29 PM.

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#6
Holier Than Thou

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Techsoldaten, that’s not true. I don’t think anyone was satisfied with our Codex, even from the day of release.

Edited by Holier Than Thou, 20 September 2019 - 05:09 PM.


#7
Brother Lunkhead

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Techsoldaten, that’s not true. I don’t think anyone was satisfied with our Codex, even from the day of release.

 

I'm not so sure..... I recall lots of excitement from GK playerssmile.png. They were quite the flavor of the month until other codices came out and squashed them along with Space Marinessad.png Their glory was quite fleeting.*

 

All I'm hoping for is a non-repeat performance with the last spate of codices and a good excuse to dust off my GK's and do battle with them again (Primaris treatment or not). I'm not so concerned about when C: GK comes out so long as it isn't drowned like last time.

 

*I should be more specific..... You've got a good point about 1st ed. C:GK for 8th ed. 40K. For me, even though I really liked (and still do) what the general rule changes did for play in 40K, once the codices started popping out it looked like a quality free-for-all to me and I stopped purchasing them and put my armies in stasis until Kill Team came out. Until then I considered 8th ed. play a total bust. But, I remained hopeful for the future.

 

….and I still remain hopeful for the future, Hopefully, that future is soonmsn-wink.gif


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 20 September 2019 - 06:35 PM.


#8
Captain Coolpants

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Rules definitely mean sales though.
Remember when formations were a thing? And how when people seen the rules they immediately bought extra units to fill up these formations.

Edited by Captain Coolpants, 21 September 2019 - 08:24 AM.

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#9
Brother Lunkhead

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Rules definitely mean sales though.
Remember when formations were a thing? And how when people seen the rules they immediately bought extra units to fill up these formations.

 

Very good pointthumbsup.gif

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

In this case we are probably going to need a Primaris rules upgrade, and I don't see that happening until we see Primaris Grey Knights models. Until that happens I just don't see GW saying, "ok guys, just play current GK's as Primaris until the new models come out sometime down the line." I could be wrong, but I don't think so. IMO we are in for a long wait for a substantial change in GK rules to make them competitive once again. On the bright side, we will eventually see it. Eventually we will see a new codex and new models, and GK's will be back in the gamebiggrin.png

 

Every 40K army has had it's ups and downs and eventually it will be our turn to shine once againbiggrin.png


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 21 September 2019 - 06:00 PM.


#10
TheMostGood

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*puts on tin foil hat*

I have a feeling that GK will not receive an updated codex and GW will be silent on it.

Then we will see GK get rolled into Sisters of Battle.

#11
Captain Coolpants

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*puts on tin foil hat*

I have a feeling that GK will not receive an updated codex and GW will be silent on it.

Then we will see GK get rolled into Sisters of Battle.

with new knights models adorning sister body parts, and a new paint scheme covered in their blood

#12
casb1965

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I don't see Primaris marines being a thing in the next GK Codex it doesn't fit with the background of them being similar but different to SM chapters.

 

What I'd prefer to see is better psychic phase and better weaponry, for what is supposed to be an elite force the lack of plasma and melta weaponry is baffling.



#13
Sweetcurse

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Primaris really don’t make sense thematically for GK. They were created long after Primaris chronologically, and so there’s no armor that fits them, Aegis type. If we were getting Tacticus armor, we would have it already. Remember, the whole “Primaris were created long ago and buried” lore is meant to justify new armor. That doesn’t gel with the timeline for GK which is why we get excluded from it, makes sense. I think it’s more likely, and I think I prefer this as well, that we get updated models with the same armor like Black Legion did. Not to say that there couldn’t be a ridiculous explanation as to why suddenly there is updated armor for GK, but I feel that would have happened already if that was the case. Seems the lack of Primaris has more to do with armor problems rather than being able to convert marine biology.

#14
Brother Lunkhead

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Primaris really don’t make sense thematically for GK. They were created long after Primaris chronologically, and so there’s no armor that fits them, Aegis type. If we were getting Tacticus armor, we would have it already. Remember, the whole “Primaris were created long ago and buried” lore is meant to justify new armor. That doesn’t gel with the timeline for GK which is why we get excluded from it, makes sense. I think it’s more likely, and I think I prefer this as well, that we get updated models with the same armor like Black Legion did. Not to say that there couldn’t be a ridiculous explanation as to why suddenly there is updated armor for GK, but I feel that would have happened already if that was the case. Seems the lack of Primaris has more to do with armor problems rather than being able to convert marine biology.

 

How do Primaris not make sense thematically with Grey Knights? The major difference between creation of a Space Marine and a Grey Knight is the gene-seed. Other than that creation is fundamentally the same. Production of Primaris sized Aegis armor and resizing of Nemesis weapons is not beyond the ability of the Tech Priests of Deimos. True, it's highly unlikely that Primaris GK's would have been part of Cawl's first production run as he more than likely had no knowledge of the GK's. However, Primarch Guilliman almost certainly did. Once he was resurrected and he activated the Primaris Project, it's highly unlikely that the Primaris tech would not have been made available to them. Just like any chapter that did not receive Primaris reinforcements, Custodes emissaries would have delivered the technology along with genetic material and tech support personnel and ordered to "DO IT" in the usual Custodes diplomatic way.

 

Aegis Primaris armor will look very different from standard Primaris armor (I hope) but Nemesis weapons should look much the same, only bigger. Since Grey Knights look very different from standard Space Marines so will Primaris Grey Knights, thus new models, and since GK's are probably not at the top of GW's production list, I think it will be some time before we see them. But, we will see themyes.gif........ eventuallymsn-wink.gif


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 25 September 2019 - 12:07 AM.

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#15
casb1965

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I get the feeling if a Custodes emissary arrived and said "DO IT" they would have been politely asked to leave. I'm not sure there's the gene-seed available either for Cawl to have worked on in the first place.



#16
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While I'm not particularly opposed to future Primaris GK, I'm not fond on the idea that is what I should hope for to have better rules / more interesting rules to play GKs with. As mentioned before our virtually army-wide storm bolter has rules now that makes GKs play better in the shooting phase. Unique rules that apply to our psychic phase and our special weapons is what we need to bring our army to the next level. Not necessarily a whole new production line involving new GK upgrade kits to primaris GKs with brand new associated rules.
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#17
Brother Lunkhead

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I get the feeling if a Custodes emissary arrived and said "DO IT" they would have been politely asked to leave. I'm not sure there's the gene-seed available either for Cawl to have worked on in the first place.

 

I'm just saying that's their attitude. The Custodes are the direct representatives of the Emperor (as direct as you get) and they are NOT diplomats. To them the Grey Knights are just another Space Marine chapter receiving new Emperor Approved Techthumbsup.gif "Here's some new stuff from the Emperor. Put it together.... so long."  Of course the GK's aren't just going to jump and salute "yes sir, yes sir, three bags full." They'll  implement it as they see fit just like the other chapters, in a manner that best suits them.

 

The Primaris Project was initiated by Guilliman, so I'm sure he had access to GK gene-seed. So I don't see why Cawl would not.

 

 

While I'm not particularly opposed to future Primaris GK, I'm not fond on the idea that is what I should hope for to have better rules / more interesting rules to play GKs with. As mentioned before our virtually army-wide storm bolter has rules now that makes GKs play better in the shooting phase. Unique rules that apply to our psychic phase and our special weapons is what we need to bring our army to the next level. Not necessarily a whole new production line involving new GK upgrade kits to primaris GKs with brand new associated rules.

 

I'm in total agreement with you on thatyes.gif Unfortunately, I don't think better rules are going to jump sales of old models. Personally, I've got all the Grey Knights I need or want. I'd be perfectly satisfied with a happier new C:GK, but GW wants new players who will be interested in new models. That's what drives their sales numbers. So, I think if we want to see any big improvements in GK's on the board sooner rather than later (ten or more years later, that iswacko.png), it's going to be attached to a Primaris upgrade. I hate to say it, but if GW publishes a grand new Codex: Grey Knights and makes Primaris GK's to go with it, I'll buy some new models. I wasn't jumping up and down when Space Marine Primaris models came out, but I wasn't hostile to the idea either..... so, I bought some new models.... they got meblush.png Like it or not, Primaris are the future for Space Marines, and when all is said and done, Grey Knights are Space Marines.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 28 September 2019 - 06:12 PM.

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#18
casb1965

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I doubt Cawl even knows about their existence let alone has access to their gene seed.



#19
Brother Lunkhead

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I doubt Cawl even knows about their existence let alone has access to their gene seed.

 

Why?



#20
Holier Than Thou

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Yeah, I’m pretty sure he knows about us considering him and Gulliman were accompanied by one of our Grand Masters.

#21
Sweetcurse

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Have you guys read the Primaris lore at all? Cawl never had GK seed to work with nor did he know about their existence, not was armor made for them. It’s also been 200 years since the crusade, where are the GK Primaris? He also would have to have armor designed 10k ago, making new armor is heretical. The only way it works is Primaris aegis armor is the lost mark 9 and only now “discovered.” But honestly they’ll have to jump a lot of hoops lore wise to make it work. This is why nothing has been released, GK lore clashes with Primaris lore, they simply cannot have Primaris upgrade if you follow the events of Gathering storm. I definitely see new models made at some point, but I’m very curious what exactly they’ll be, but I’m sure it won’t be straight up Primaris upgrade. Read gathering storm, it doesn’t add up that GK were part of that experiment. Even then, it’s not the primarization that’s an issue, again, it’s the armor. Of course they could just sweep it under the rug and say boom, here it is because we say so. Lol.
Yes Cawl knows about us now, 10k years after gathering storm and 200 since end of crusade and nothing.

#22
dex_911

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We don't need the primaris treatment lore or model wise.

New models can simply be re-scaled much like the new chaos marines and we can always have a new stat-line of our own since we are different from marines anyway. A buff of +1A or +1W for our basic marine is a fine justification simply by the fact we are completelty different to normal / primaris marines.

 

We should also have way more psychic power buffs (defense / offence) to our units.


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#23
Sweetcurse

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Yes exactly

#24
casb1965

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Yeah, Cawl didn't have access to the gene-seed of the GK as it wasn't stored in the Sangprimus Portum and I'm certain the GKs would have handed it over.



#25
Brother Tyler

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I expect the Grey Knights to be updated to include Primaris. From a lore perspective, Cawl may not have had access to Grey Knights gene-seed prior to Guilliman's return, but he should have it now. It may take some time (which, coincidentally, will match the amount of time it takes GW to create new models/molds msn-wink.gif ). This might be gradual, with an initial batch coming via Index Astartes article and full release of the rest of the range later; or it might be all at once (which will mean that it will occur later).

From a rules format perspective, I see one of two things happening:

The first alternative, and probably preferable for most, is that the entire Grey Knights line will allow for a stand alone codex. The Grey Knights are no more niche than the Adeptus Custodes, who have their own codex. This would fall in line with what we've had since Codex: Daemonhunters was first released (and to a lesser degree, what we saw with the Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness army list).

The second alternative is that the Grey Knights will get rolled into some other codex. It won't be the Sisters of Battle, though. If anything, it might be a return of the Agents of the Imperium concept where a variety of forces with the IMPERIUM keyword are included to allow them to be used as allies to a larger force. This would align with what we had in 2nd and 3rd editions and the later Codex: Agents of the Imperium. Coincidentally, such a format would allow for the Legion of the Damned to return, too.

Regardless of how it all pans out, though, I don't see it happening soon. There are a lot of big releases coming out (the remaining codex supplements for Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Adepta Sororitas (or "Sisters of Battle"), the Psychic Awakening event) that are far more important. There will be a lot of work involved in updating the (full?) range to Primaris, and that shouldn't happen in a rushed fashion.

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