Fixing drop pods

[TorvaldTheMild]

I feel that drop pods should either have their points lowered or they should be able to land 1 inch from enemies.  I'm fine with the distance that they are now, but the cost is absolutely ridiculous, especially with the continued cap on the amount of reinforcements you can make that is fine but, you pay an obscene amount of points for them to do one job.   I mean drop pods are a devastating tool in the lore, they should reflect that in the game, I mean if one of these lands on troops, you can say goodbye to that unit.

[Panzer]

They just got a strong buff in that they can drop turn 1. I don't think they need more. It's rather a problem of not having many units you need Drop Pods for.

[Vykes]

hmm... I mean the price is a little steep compared to some of the other transports given that they can't be re-embarked upon, can't move, can't charge, don't have smoke, and have some pretty paltry weapons, but they do ignore the reinforcement cap by entirely bypassing the Tactical Reserve rule with whatever unit they transport (which governs reinforcement limits).  Now, of course it forces some odd interactions if you're also using reserves that arrive by other means, but in theory you can still have a full drop pod army* and it won't insta-lose even with a null deployment as Sudden Death doesn't occur until the end of the first round.  

 

I would be perfectly fine with drop pods being able to land, oh, say something like D6+3 inches from an enemy unit, though (Like, I want to say the Calladus assassin).  But frankly it may still be open to abuse.   

 

*What's driving me crazy is that Chaos Dreadclaws, Deathstorm, Kharibdys, and Lucius pattern drop pods have the identical Drop Pod Assault rule that was changed in the FAQ but their Imperial Armour entries didn't change it. It it just keyed off the main book it would solve all those problems, but for now they're functionally different. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

They just got a strong buff in that they can drop turn 1. I don't think they need more. It's rather a problem of not having many units you need Drop Pods for.

They should be able to drop turn one.  That they couldn't was ridiculous.

Edited September 20, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Is this really a rules question?  This seems to be more about what the rules should be rather than what they are - so the Official Rules forum doesn't seem to be the right place for this.

 

Unless there is some rules question I'm somehow missing.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[TorvaldTheMild]

Is this really a rules question?  This seems to be more about what the rules should be rather than what they are - so the Official Rules forum doesn't seem to be the right place for this.

 

Unless there is some rules question I'm somehow missing.

Well there is no section for discussing rules or proposed rules so I would assumed this would be fine.  

Edited September 20, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, I was about to suggest the Homegrown Rules (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/forum/58-homegrown-rules/), but the mods have moved it to the Astartes forum, which is also appropriate.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Drop pods are fine right now. Theyre very strong in facilitating turn 1 deployment of short ranged weapons or melee units in addition to breaking the aforementioned reserve limit (which you seem to have missed). They also just get stronger as marine supplements drop; iron hands don't suffer any penalties for dev squads piling out (hello grav cannons) and white scars can pile out with a bunch of bonuses to charge.

 

They could land super close in previous editions because a) they scattered most of the time b) you couldn't charge. Neither of those apply in 8th, plus you don't have to come in on turn 1 or split pod waves. I'm not sure how they'd price them to come down turn 1, 1" away, with no mitigation or risk of failure.

 

If you're looking to deliver melee marines, theres successor tactics and stratagems that help get the average to a semi reliable state.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Drop pods are fine right now. Theyre very strong in facilitating turn 1 deployment of short ranged weapons or melee units in addition to breaking the aforementioned reserve limit (which you seem to have missed). They also just get stronger as marine supplements drop; iron hands don't suffer any penalties for dev squads piling out (hello grav cannons) and white scars can pile out with a bunch of bonuses to charge.

 

They could land super close in previous editions because a) they scattered most of the time you couldn't charge. Neither of those apply in 8th, plus you don't have to come in on turn 1 or split pod waves. I'm not sure how they'd price them to come down turn 1, 1" away, with no mitigation or risk of failure.

 

If you're looking to deliver melee marines, theres successor tactics and stratagems that help get the average to a semi reliable state.

No I never missed that, I already said that they should have always been able to do that.  Plus 1st turn isn't that always that good, they are good for gunlines as they aren't going anywhere (but depending on what you bring it can be better trying to take out some units first), but I like the army to move first and take some damage and then drop my units in, where you can stop them getting objectives or cut them off, flank and surround a particular unit you want taken out, pin them inbetween one of your dakka units and a CC unit behind them etc.  Also the amount of units you are keeping in reserve depends on whether you will 1st turn assault. So that buff isn't that good in my opinion, might be incredible for you, but like I said, you should have always been able to do that.  Yeah bit they scattered to the point where they were closer so that goes both ways.  These facts weren't a big deal because they were cheap in 7th, you should always have been able to charge from them though, you can charge from vehicles now and they are either cheaper of have some sort of firepower that isn't as weak as drop pods firepower and units get the same rules that drop pods do such as teleporting etc. but at a fraction of the cost, yes you should pay some sort of premium for being able to drop any infantry you want but not at the price it is now.  Also you can't really compare drop pods from 7th edition to 8th, they are two completely different game systems, its not like comparing 7th to 6th as it was practically the same game.  I mean honestly, how often do you really see drop pods in a list these days. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[SkimaskMohawk]

You said "the cost is absolutely ridiculous, especially with the continued cap on the amount of reinforcements you can make" . There is no cap for pods; you did miss that.

 

1st turn drop is a huge deal. They basically removed it from the game because it was so dominant with shooting units. You can still choose to drop your units in later than turn 1 to contest far-flung objectives if that's what you want.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the number of units in reserve for a turn 1 charge. Only white scars descendants have that option, and once again, the pods ignore the reserve cap.

 

They fully scattered in 7th, not so they'd be closer to the enemy. Whichever direction the arrow was pointing was the way they went; you'd modify it if you were going to land on a unit, but only to be further away.

 

Oh I finished reading your mega-paragraph and realise this is pure wishlisting. You actually do and did want unmitigated 1st turn deepstrike charge with no chance of failure.

 

Also a lot, I see a lot of pod lists now because theyre very good

[TorvaldTheMild]

You said "the cost is absolutely ridiculous, especially with the continued cap on the amount of reinforcements you can make" . There is no cap for pods; you did miss that.

 

1st turn drop is a huge deal. They basically removed it from the game because it was so dominant with shooting units. You can still choose to drop your units in later than turn 1 to contest far-flung objectives if that's what you want.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the number of units in reserve for a turn 1 charge. Only white scars descendants have that option, and once again, the pods ignore the reserve cap.

 

They fully scattered in 7th, not so they'd be closer to the enemy. Whichever direction the arrow was pointing was the way they went; you'd modify it if you were going to land on a unit, but only to be further away.

 

Oh I finished reading your mega-paragraph and realise this is pure wishlisting. You actually do and did want unmitigated 1st turn deepstrike charge with no chance of failure.

 

Also a lot, I see a lot of pod lists now because theyre very good

It can be a huge deal.  It all depends, on the reason I stated and on the missions you are doing and again they should already be able to arrive 1st turn, still doesn't make the price worth it.  Again units that can deep stike in can do all that a drop pod can do and you don't have to waste 100 pnts on it.  Plus you get wounds and weapons etc. with the actual drop pod but lets face it, you could live without them.  They are still extremely over cost, I mean in small games rhinos are better in a lot of cases.  The game is skewed towards shooting, so people automatically assume that '1st turn drop' is OP and the price is fine because they are used to a game that is always skewed towards shooting.  All drop pods do is drop your troops in, that's all you want them for and all they are really good for, actually forget what I said, I just realised they got a pnts decrease, didn't know they were only 60pnts now, I've been busy this year so I've not been up as much on my game.  I enjoy arguments too much, even when I'm wrong lol

 

Well if you have a lot of reserves you'll want to use that first turn to drop some units in as you'll still have enough to do more in the later rounds.

 

I never said that they scattered to get closer to the enemy, I said by the same 'token' they could scatter closer to the enemy as well as scattering far away...  Yeah I know how scattering worked.

 

Obviously its wish-listing.

Edited September 21, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[SkimaskMohawk]

Drop pods drop you turn 1 and give it to a variety of units that didn't have access or that you didn't want to pay for individually via jump pack or terminator. That's their role in 8th. You can say the points are too high and they should have been able to always deepstrike turn 1, but that doesn't change that they're a very powerful tool.

 

You can spend 65 points (not 100 like you say) and give a company veteran squad with plasma, captain and lieutenant deepstrike, that's 325 points total. Or you can spend 351 for basically the same thing in terms of offensive output for plasma inceptors and the two hqs. The cheaper option also comes in earlier.

 

8th is decided in the first two turns, usually by shooting. First turn drop is so strong because it allows you to position your shooting unit where it needs to be and engage on turn 1,while also making them invincible if you don't get top of the turn. Again, they took that away from almost every army.

 

And what you said about scattering was "Yeah bit they scattered to the point where they were closer so that goes both ways" . That's a definitive statement...

[TorvaldTheMild]

Drop pods drop you turn 1 and give it to a variety of units that didn't have access or that you didn't want to pay for individually via jump pack or terminator. That's their role in 8th. You can say the points are too high and they should have been able to always deepstrike turn 1, but that doesn't change that they're a very powerful tool.

 

You can spend 65 points (not 100 like you say) and give a company veteran squad with plasma, captain and lieutenant deepstrike, that's 325 points total. Or you can spend 351 for basically the same thing in terms of offensive output for plasma inceptors and the two hqs. The cheaper option also comes in earlier.

 

8th is decided in the first two turns, usually by shooting. First turn drop is so strong because it allows you to position your shooting unit where it needs to be and engage on turn 1,while also making them invincible if you don't get top of the turn. Again, they took that away from almost every army.

 

And what you said about scattering was "Yeah bit they scattered to the point where they were closer so that goes both ways" . That's a definitive statement...

Did you not read my last reply, I said ignore it I didn't release they dropped in points.

 

Yes its a definitive statement.  What are you talking about, yeah they scatter both ways, you are saying that its a con that they scatter away from a unit, but its also a pro that they can scatter closer to the enemy, so you can't say that its a negative because they go both ways,  I don't know what you are talking about.

Edited September 22, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Panzer]

Realistically Drop Pods usually dropped exactly where you wanted them to be because if they scatter to a unit or terrain they landed as close as possible to it instead of getting screwed like other units so you ended up just squeezing the pod between units and terrain to guarantee it landing where it needs to be. ^^

Edited September 22, 2019 by sfPanzer

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Drop pods drop you turn 1 and give it to a variety of units that didn't have access or that you didn't want to pay for individually via jump pack or terminator. That's their role in 8th. You can say the points are too high and they should have been able to always deepstrike turn 1, but that doesn't change that they're a very powerful tool.

 

You can spend 65 points (not 100 like you say) and give a company veteran squad with plasma, captain and lieutenant deepstrike, that's 325 points total. Or you can spend 351 for basically the same thing in terms of offensive output for plasma inceptors and the two hqs. The cheaper option also comes in earlier.

 

8th is decided in the first two turns, usually by shooting. First turn drop is so strong because it allows you to position your shooting unit where it needs to be and engage on turn 1,while also making them invincible if you don't get top of the turn. Again, they took that away from almost every army.

 

And what you said about scattering was "Yeah bit they scattered to the point where they were closer so that goes both ways" . That's a definitive statement...

Did you not read my last reply, I said ignore it I didn't release they dropped in points.

 

Yes its a definitive statement. What are you talking about, yeah they scatter both ways, you are saying that its a con that they scatter away from a unit, but its also a pro that they can scatter closer to the enemy, so you can't say that its a negative because they go both ways, I don't know what you are talking about.

There was a lot to read and it was horribly formatted; I unsurprisingly missed something in the giant block of text.

 

I'm saying that you literally didn't say what you claimed you did about pods.

 

@sfpanzer they only interacted terrain if it would cause the mishap. Not saying they weren't great because they were, but the scatter has screwed me for Los in few games of 30k. They aren't infallible.

[Brother Tyler]

I've removed a number of posts that were nothing more than bickering. There are a number of others that might be edited to remove the petty bickering.

 

Let's stay constructive, folks.

[Daigo Cannon]

I agree on the 9' limit should stay just for the sanity of the game, a free T1 charge is big. 

But I would like for the drop pods to do something else, Ialways love how in the lore the DP lands over a unit and you see the marines popping out maybe a rule to do 1 or a 1d3 MW on infantry units at 10' away from the DP when it lands or while the marines are near the DP they counts as "in cover" 

[Link2edition]

If I could change one thing about pods it would be the disembark. I think you should be able to place models on the deployed doors, because it looks cool.

Other than that they are fine in their current incarnation. I have been using 3.

[Panzer]

If I could change one thing about pods it would be the disembark. I think you should be able to place models on the deployed doors, because it looks cool.

 

Other than that they are fine in their current incarnation. I have been using 3.

 

Houserule that the doors aren't part of the model like any sane person because it's dumb and creates all kinds of problems. Done. ;)

[Link2edition]

 

If I could change one thing about pods it would be the disembark. I think you should be able to place models on the deployed doors, because it looks cool.

 

Other than that they are fine in their current incarnation. I have been using 3.

 

Houserule that the doors aren't part of the model like any sane person because it's dumb and creates all kinds of problems. Done.

 

I am using the list for tournament play, otherwise I would.

 

Been using the ruling that you can drop with the doors closed instead.

[Wulf Vengis]

A drop pod should be considered an allied fortification or scenery after it hits the table.

Allied models should be allowed to pass over/through drop pods, gaining cover as they do so.

Drop pods should count as difficult/dangerous terrain to enemy units that pass over/through them. This represents the drop pods automated defenses (storm bolter, deathwind whatever).

Units passing though/over enemy drop pods should also be considered in cover.

A drop pods that scatters into a enemy unit should suffer something similar tank shock and receive some amount of wounds (not sure how to decide the actual amount).

[War Angel]

There’s no more scatter

[Cap'm Heckus]

I always just had one to two doors that opened on mine. That eliminated rules issues in either direction. Didn’t take up too much room and had plenty of room to deploy troops without standing on the petals.

[Wulf Vengis]

There should be scatter. At least for deep strike (drop pods anyway). Even if only like d6 inches. It allows for that "oh hell were coming in hard" narrative. It would also allow for the difference of teleporting over drop podding.

 

Edit: Maybe I'm wrong on that. It's just my opinion.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[Panzer]

No, scatter made pretty much every kind of deep strike unusable except for Drop Pods because they cheesed 90% of the deep strike rules with their special rules.