Fixing drop pods

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Scatter and still having to disembark 9" away could be a real problem .

[Wulf Vengis]

So something like this...

 

Drop Pod Scatter: Drop pods are a primitive means of battlefield deployment, notorious for their inaccuracy.

When a drop pod arrives via deep strike roll the scatter die and a d6. Place the drop pod d6 inches away from its intended target in the direction indicated by the scatter die.

Units disembarking from a drop pod are not restricted by the normal rules for disembarking.

 

Alternatively you could allow for drop pods to be setup during deployment in a method similar to scouts. Then the units inside would follow all of the normal rules for disembarking.

 

Not sure about assaulting after deployment. Maybe an upgrade for drop pods called Assault Ramps. Or a new model, the Assault Drop Pod (name pending).

Edited October 2, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pretty sure in the lore pods are neither primitive or notoriously inaccurate.

[Wulf Vengis]

I didn't say primitive technology, but when compared to teleportation they're incredibly primitive. Drop Pods can't home in on a beacon and land as accurately on that location when compared to teleportation either. Hence my use of "primitive" and "inaccurate".

 

However that was just a pace holder fluff blurb to accompany a rule. It can always be changed to better suit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Drop pods can home in on beacons though...locator beacons were a thing in past editions, as well as other devices in 30k.

[Wulf Vengis]

I don't want to come off argumentative, and i do recall that ruling, so what if i say the scatter effect is for balance reasons?

 

I mean in the theory crafting about drop pods and fixing them, this seems like a fluffy way to balance to them.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Are they imbalanced?

[Wulf Vengis]

I'm just throwing ideas and suggestions out based on the OP and other posts discussing the uses of and effectiveness of drop pods on the table. And perhaps a scatter rule may keep them balanced based on my other suggestions.

 

It seems you believe drop pods are fine as is and are in a good place currently; cool, fine. You've said your piece, now if you've nothing more constructive to add why take such a combative stance against us discussing this?

Anything we theory craft here would more than likely never effect your games. In fact it may never effect anyones games, but it's fun and it's our right as fraters.

So I've given a few ways drop pods could be utilized or more effective beyond their own arrival with a few minor rules tweaks. If you've anything to add, whether for or against, or even your own ideas, please do so. But also, please refrain from being antagonistic or combative if you don't agree or don't have anything constructive to say. We're all family here, and we're all here to have fun.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The entire premise of the thread is that drop pods are something that don't work properly and need to be fixed. Discussing that premise is on topic; asking if they're imbalanced isn't "combative" or "antagonistic", especially if you say your ideas are for balance reasons.

 

Its my right to post as long as it's on topic and polite. Just because you don't like the questions I ask is completely irrelevant. You don't get to apply your standards of fun to anyone but yourself.

 

So keeping this on topic, do you think drop pods are imbalanced to need a scatter rule and do you think that would fix your perceived imbalance. As it is, there's no need for a scatter because your proposed change to the disembark rule doesn't actually change anything with how a drop pod operates.

Edited October 3, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Wulf Vengis]

In my error i didn't take your last question as constructive, based on your seeming willingness to argue the current state of drop pods in what i had felt was "nah, move on with it" kind of way. For that i apologize.

 

Also, thank you for the feedback, it really does help in understanding your point of view just as it does to get ours across.

 

Honestly,I'm not sure if they're balanced currently or not. They've got handful of benefits and drawbacks as well and a point price to match that. I feel the point price is a little high for a static easy to pop target with no real defenses.

I'm also not sure if a scatter rule is what they need for balance. That's why I've offered several ideas and asked for feedback.

 

If the change to disembark negates the need for scatter then that may be a simple fix that makes the drop pod worth it's points or at least balances the model in a way that scatter is not necessary.

[Brother Casman]

I think that drop pods can mostly stay as they are, but I would change the disembark action slightly. A drop pod must land more than 9" from any enemy units, but the dudes inside can disembark closer. In exchange, I would define the footprint of the drop pod to be just the pentagonal base - you would ignore the doors for all game purposes; they don't grant cover, you and your opponent can move across them freely, etc.

 

The ability to start units slightly closer to your foe might then help justify the cost of the drop pod.

[painting.for.my.sanity]

I think that drop pods can mostly stay as they are, but I would change the disembark action slightly. A drop pod must land more than 9" from any enemy units, but the dudes inside can disembark closer. In exchange, I would define the footprint of the drop pod to be just the pentagonal base - you would ignore the doors for all game purposes; they don't grant cover, you and your opponent can move across them freely, etc.

 

The ability to start units slightly closer to your foe might then help justify the cost of the drop pod.

I think this, plus removing the Primaris restriction, would make me more likely to run them.

[Wulf Vengis]

Those last two posts are easily the best answers for a simple fix.

 

May i also suggest allowing terminators and wulfen by proxy of including primaris?

 

Maybe even allowing a unit of 3 Centurions?

 

Deploy no closer than 9" to an enemy unit.

Passenger units disembark immediately regardless of distance from enemy units.

The "base" of the drop pod is the pentagonal hull.

All models can move across/stand on the doors with no penalty.

A single Primaris/terminator/wulfen marines count as 2 marines for the purposes of carrying capacity.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Youre starting to hit the slippery slope of turn 1 charges with extremely good assault units.

 

The marine book already allows you to get charges off of deepstrike with more consistentcy via supplement stratagems and successor tactics; bringing in really heavy hitters like assault centurions on turn 1, with a 5-6 inch charge and possible rerolls is really good. Especially considering that the centurions limited movement is a design choice; raven guard and white scars can circumvent it a bit, but you still pay CP and need to make some decisions about deployment.

 

I think non-gravis primaris should be able to go in pods, but the 9" restriction should still stay in place due to the nature of charging from deepstrike and the various charge bonuses. Marines don't need even more reliable alpha strike.

[Kallas]

Youre starting to hit the slippery slope of turn 1 charges with extremely good assault units.

 

There are plenty of these in the game already, especially on the Marine side of things:

• Any Concealed Position unit can do it: between Scouts, Incursors, Infiltrators and Invictor freaking Warsuits that's already a big concern
• Raven Guard/White Scars, as you mentioned, can do a lot of the same kinds of things too
• Kraken Genestealers do this, and most Tyranid armies that bring Swarmlord can project a whole heap of bodies across the table turn one
• Craftworld Eldar Shining Spears are similar to Kraken Genestealers when they use Quicken
• Chaos Bikes (or other fast moving units) with Warptime, as well as things like the Dark Matter Crystal; same for Necrons with Veil of Darkness
• Ork Mobs with Da Jump (and usually also with Warpath) are a major threat that's been in the game since their Codex dropped, and they're definitely a potent tactic; same with Upon Wings of Fire/Forlorn Fury Blood Angels

That's just a quick list off the top of my head.

 

The Turn Two Deep Strike restriction did blunt some of the Turn One charge capability, but honestly, it's never gone away.

 

And really, is Turn One charging really that much worse than Turn One pick up a quarter of your army...because guns are still shooting you. Seriously, so many times folks complain about turn one charges, but ignore the fact that incredibly powerful and plentiful long range shooting is extremely commonplace. You don't want turn one charges, but three to nine aircraft screaming across the table to obliterate several units turn one is fine?

[Wulf Vengis]

Even with the points Kallas makes, i was simply think of size category. A primaris is about the size of a wulfen is about the size of a terminator. 10 power armored marines are about the size of 5 terminators/primaris/wulfen. A single dreadnought is similar in size to 3 centurions. And so forth.

 

The real solution to this is to just say units disembarking from drop pods can't charge in the same turn.

Which brings us back to my idea of allowing a drop pod to take a vehicle upgrade for 20ish points that allows for disembark and then a charge.

Or to release a whole new version of the drop pod.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Wulf Vengis

[SkimaskMohawk]

@kallas

 

Concealed positions is 9" away from the enemy deployment zone, which usually means you're 9" from the screening unit in the front of their army because the zone can cover their flanks appropriately. Only the invictor has actual combat threat out of the native concealed positions units.

 

Raven guard need to go first and win a roll off after that to get a guaranteed turn 1 charge. And that takes a warlord trait and stratagem. Those assault centurions aren't getting plopped 9" away from their deployment zone if you go second.

 

White scars can pretty much only manipulate the invictor with the chapter tactic. For turn 1 threats. It still runs into the deployment zone issue.

 

I'm actually just going to summarize the rest and tldr it all up; you pay command points or rely on a power for one unit, while starting in a position to take damage (on the board).

 

Having a slow moving unit get deepstrike with the ability to come in turn 1, for a low amount of points is different. You don't have to rely on going first because they can't be shot or damaged in any way, but can still affect the game board on turn 1. You need a 4" charge, without any form of rerolls or bonuses. You can do it with more than 1 unit.

 

Shooting depends entirely on terrain. I don't play on junk tier tables; if stuff is getting shot, it's because it's in Los trying to line up a shot itself. 25% of the board should be terrain, with multiple large line of sight blocking pieces.

 

Not sure where planes came from, I certainly never mentioned them. Feel free to continue your strawman though, just remember they can actually be damaged on turn 1 if their player doesn't go first.

Edited October 4, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Kallas]

@kallas

 

Concealed positions is 9" away from the enemy deployment zone, which usually means you're 9" from the screening unit in the front of their army because the zone can cover their flanks appropriately. Only the invictor has actual combat threat out of the native concealed positions units.

 

[...] Other stuff [...]

 

9" from Deployment Zone, and then a movement, so at 3" away, realistically. For certain Chapters that's less (eg, White Scars who can advance and charge). Then they can shoot up the screen and then charge stuff beyond, or shoot stuff beyond and then charge the screen.

 

And sure, some of the stuff that's got Concealed Positions isn't too threatening to a lot of stuff, but a single Scout can stop, say, a Leman Russ Tank Commander from shooting. That's powerful on its own.

 

Not sure where planes came from, I certainly never mentioned them. Feel free to continue your strawman though, just remember they can actually be damaged on turn 1 if their player doesn't go first.

 

My point about planes, and other units, is that first turn alpha strikes are extremely prevalent in the game already. Planes are an example of ones that don't give a good God-Emperor damn about deployment: they zoom up and shoot whatever they want because of their speed and (generally) range makes them capable of striking anything, particularly in the first turn. While they can certainly be damaged turn one, they also have great defence against a lot of things: they almost all pack a universal -1 to be hit, have high speed so can deploy to cover themselves (either literally with some terrain, or figuratively with the best defence: range), and tend to be at least as tough as similar vehicles within their factions (eg, a Razorwing Jetfighter is tougher than a Ravager, for example, with similar damage output base).

 

Also, please don't wave around the strawman argument - it wasn't a strawman, it was part of a post about the whole situation.

 

Edit: As for a lot of the other stuff I listed: it often can't be shot at, as many of those options can be deployed out of LoS and then zoom/DS into position. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Kallas

[Panzer]

If Drop Pods would be able to get their cargo closer than 9" Space Marines with actual melee units like Blood Angels would have a blast. 1st turn Deathcompany spam with no risk inc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Kallas, I still don't see how units like the invictus that rely on going first are comparable to assault centurions in a pod that don't care about going first. They're invincible while in deepstrike, pump out way more chaf clearing fire power and do way more melee damage.

 

And man, I never talked about planes or the health of the game due to their impact; I don't think it should be as dominant as it is, just like I don't think no-risk, no real cost, turn 1 auto-charge with brutal units should be a thing. Saying I'm fine with one but not the other is a complete strawman.

[Kallas]

Saying I'm fine with one but not the other is a complete strawman.

 

Except if the Centurions are immune to damage going second, they're also vulnerable to being screened out. A couple of units of Guardsmen can cover an immense amount of ground, and then those Centurions drop in to..do what? Kill 80pts of Guardsmen then get shot apart?

 

Also, Invictors don't really rely on going first - they rely on going first if you deploy them as far forward as possible in the open. They have a 10" movement, so they can cover ground quickly; deploying them back 3-4" to get cover isn't the end of the world, and they're still applying immense forward pressure without even doing a thing.

 

Since you seem to miss my point multiple times:

There are numerous ways to cause immense damage in the first turn that don't rely on Drop Pods, and a lot of these are readily accessible. But the ultimate first turn alpha strike comes from guns: either long ranged or incredibly fast units, and these have been prevalent and powerful since the beginning of 8th Ed.

 

There's a reason Knights have been dominant for a long time: they're resilient, have great firepower and hit hard in melee too, they're hard to shut down/prevent doing what they want to do, and they're reasonably priced. You can't shut down a Knight by having a couple of chaff units deployed to screen them out (well, you kind of can) whereas the (theoretical) Centurion Drop Pod is vulnerable to normal anti-Deep Strike tactics (Infiltrators shut them down pretty hard, as even one five-man squad can cover a huge amount of the table, as an example).

 

Thing is, you are arguing against that kind of change on the principle that it's too powerful because it's untouchable and uncounterable. In some ways, I agree, because powerful shooting units coming out of Deep Strike turn one is powerful, and it's why the general Deep Strike rules got nerfed. At the same time, it's not entirely uncounterable when it relies on short ranged units (bear in mind that my initial comment was focused on your statement, "Youre starting to hit the slippery slope of turn 1 charges with extremely good assault units.")

 

Going back to that initial comment: Drop Pods bearing close ranged units is not exactly a huge issue, when we already have a huge amount of the same potential in the game. The list I made outlines a bunch of possible combinations already present in the current state of the game...but for some reason a Drop Pod makes it worse? My follow up comments about ranged units was to further highlight that your position is odd: it's too much when Drop Pods are involved, but all of the myriad, mass firepower armies in the game, or the other, first turn charges are not?

[Wulf Vengis]

Are we at least in agreement that first turn charges with a unit like, say, long fangs or dark reapers is acceptable then?

[Panzer]

No, I don't think first turn charges should be a thing at all.

[Wulf Vengis]

Ok. I just wanted to make sure the issue wasn't being levied against units designed for close combat only.

[Wulf Vengis]

I don't feel restricting first turn charges is the way to handle it, especially as others have said first turn shooting isn't restricted and can invariably wipe out as many or more units as first turn assaults.

 

What if drop pods are restricted to arriving on the second and further turns only?

If this is acceptable then perhaps allowing drop pods to be set up during deployment (as i mentioned above) and disembarked on the first turn would alleviate some of these issues?