BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 GW doesn’t want first turn charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 They don't, and yet there are ways to perform them within the rules written by GW. This is why we're here discussing house rules to make the drop pods more effective/worthwhile on the tabletop... I feel like we've been down this road before Blow Fly.* *I had more to say but have chosen to hold my tongue out of good faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 Armies that can reliably first turn charge tend to be one trick ponies such as stealer shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted October 6, 2019 Share Posted October 6, 2019 (edited) The effectiveness of those "one trick ponies" aside, this sets a precedent. GW isn't against first turn charges, it's simply pandering to a noisy fanbase, who don't want their shooters getting wiped on turn 1. Afterall i can move my close combat units into assault range on turn one but a 90's video game style invisible wall is keeping my models from eating their opponents alive. How? Why? Let's be fair here i don't want my nasty close combat units getting blown off the table on turn 1, so i propose we do away with turn 1 shooting. I digress however. We've already moved away from first turn charges and back to how to make drop pods better without breaking the game. Restricting drop pods to either needing to be set up during deployment like fortifications and having the units within disembark on their first movement phase (which could allow enemies to pop them with passengers still on board mind you), or arriving on the table after the first turn (2nd and up arrivals only), would not only mitigate the no first turn charge issue but also the 9 inch disembark issue. Edited October 6, 2019 by Wulf Vengis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Are you suggesting that the fix o drop pods is to make them worse? Forcing them to deploy at the start of the game leaves your own forces open to being shot off the table, and limits your tactical options. Forcing them to come in turn two or later removes the very buff they just received. Those don’t fix anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) That's the problem though isn't it? They can arrive first turn but units aren't permitted to assault first turn. What then is the point of first turn podding? I understand you could put shooting units in there but why bother? Shooting units don't need to drop in right in the enemies faces. To me it seems like the longer we debate the issues with drop pods the only thing wrong with them isn't even a problem with then per se, it's the inability to assault first turn. Edited October 7, 2019 by Wulf Vengis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Don’t drop cc units first turn? There’s occasions where dropping in shooting units turn one is better than setting them up on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Just because a first turn assault from a drop pod isn’t reliable doesn’t make them inherently bad plus versus a competent player at most you’ll just hit chaff screens then die next turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 The biggest problem of Drop Pods is that there aren't really many units you want to put in them these days. Dreadnoughts can't go in them anymore and require a Dreadnought Drop Pod from FW instead, Jump Packs are just as reliable and cheaper, others like Devastators have enough range on their own. The way to 'fix' Drop Pods, if there's anything to fix in the first place, would be to create units that want to use it. Sternguards and Tacticals are pretty much the only ones without additional buffs these days. IH could drop Devastators in them as well since they can move&shoot with Heavy weapons without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Well i guess all of this has been for nothing then because at their current price they're absolutely worthless to most factions that can take them. Not being able to arrive where they're needed, not being able to assault on the first turn for that shock attack. What even is the point? Again this is why we've been discussing them. I'll just refer everyone to my older post in which i said: Deploy no closer than 9" to an enemy unit. Passenger units disembark immediately regardless of distance from enemy units. The "base" of the drop pod is the pentagonal hull. All models can move across/stand on the doors with no penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Devs with grav cannons are great. Subtleknife 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 Didn't drop pods used to grant relentless (count as stationary for shooting) the turn they came in for embarked units? This would be a nice buff to encourage sternguard and tacticals using bolter discipline, since they could be further away when they deploy. Also devs for everyone would benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLŒ FLY Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 You don’t need it depending on which chapter you play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 Didn't drop pods used to grant relentless (count as stationary for shooting) the turn they came in for embarked units? This would be a nice buff to encourage sternguard and tacticals using bolter discipline, since they could be further away when they deploy. Also devs for everyone would benefit. If they'd grant something like that people would just put in Devastators instead. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 Didn't drop pods used to grant relentless (count as stationary for shooting) the turn they came in for embarked units? This would be a nice buff to encourage sternguard and tacticals using bolter discipline, since they could be further away when they deploy. Also devs for everyone would benefit. No, not by default. You're thinking of that Formation which allowed Devastator Squads in a pod to become relentless (the same Formation also let Assault squads charge out of Deep Strike). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 Giving relentless to passengers on the turn of arrival would actually make them worthwhile. At least somewhat. Perhaps drop pods having different point values based on the unit that it accompanies is a way to go? I think this would be too confusing however. Obviously the easiest solution is a stratagem that just resolves this nonsense, because until first turn assaults are a normal thing in this game again i don't see any way to make drop pods useful for their current pricing. Again, yeah you could put shooty squads in them and it can be very nasty but that's only utilizing half of what these things were designed for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted October 8, 2019 Share Posted October 8, 2019 until first turn assaults are a normal thing in this game again They already are for several factions. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Didn't drop pods used to grant relentless (count as stationary for shooting) the turn they came in for embarked units? This would be a nice buff to encourage sternguard and tacticals using bolter discipline, since they could be further away when they deploy. Also devs for everyone would benefit. If they'd grant something like that people would just put in Devastators instead. ^^ Nothing wrong with that, devs aren't exactly under costed, especially adding a pod so it evens out. Relentless on arrival sounds somewhat effective, not extremely broken and fluffy to boot. So many times in lore, that devastating squad fire after exiting the pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted October 9, 2019 Share Posted October 9, 2019 Pretty sure the skyhammer was one of the most decried formations of 7th since it paired the busted grav rules with relentless. It wasn't well received by people who liked balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Pretty sure the skyhammer was one of the most decried formations of 7th since it paired the busted grav rules with relentless. It wasn't well received by people who liked balance. CA exists, if it would be an issue with relentless drop pods, the grav points would just be increased to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Death Star was way more complicated more competitive and really fun to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Pretty sure the skyhammer was one of the most decried formations of 7th since it paired the busted grav rules with relentless. It wasn't well received by people who liked balance. CA exists, if it would be an issue with relentless drop pods, the grav points would just be increased to balance. What I'm saying is that despite seeming fluffy, it was extremely effective and broken. It's the reason grav has been bad for 2 years ever since the edition swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Pretty sure the skyhammer was one of the most decried formations of 7th since it paired the busted grav rules with relentless. It wasn't well received by people who liked balance. CA exists, if it would be an issue with relentless drop pods, the grav points would just be increased to balance. What I'm saying is that despite seeming fluffy, it was extremely effective and broken. It's the reason grav has been bad for 2 years ever since the edition swap. Well I don't see the problem now with the current grav then. Grav might get the biggest buff with a relentless pod, again points can change for devs to balance it if it ends up OP this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Pretty sure the skyhammer was one of the most decried formations of 7th since it paired the busted grav rules with relentless. It wasn't well received by people who liked balance. CA exists, if it would be an issue with relentless drop pods, the grav points would just be increased to balance. What I'm saying is that despite seeming fluffy, it was extremely effective and broken. It's the reason grav has been bad for 2 years ever since the edition swap. Well I don't see the problem now with the current grav then. Grav might get the biggest buff with a relentless pod, again points can change for devs to balance it if it ends up OP this time around. Balancing points for Devs around an optional transport option is a terrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subtleknife Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 I just wish I could put primaris in them. Would be a great delivery method for hellblasters or aggressors. I really hope if they do eventually abandon the mini marine line they port the drop pod over. It is such an iconic unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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