Next Primarch to return

[Ishagu]

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Ishagu

[Karhedron]

 

The bit of lore of the Imperial Fists only finding Dorn's hand goes back to 3rd ed Index Astartes, not sure when they wrote that the IF had the whole skeleton but I believe they have gone back to the original lore of Dorn only having his hand left which may or may not be a hint that he isnt dead but missing.

The whole skeleton fluff goes way back to the novel space marine. A book that whilst a great read, also includes zoats (no bad thing!) and space marines successfully piloting a titan after eating the crew's brains. For a long time it was the only fluff really available on the IF until Pete Haines IA article essentially took the best bits and brought the fluff in line for 3rd edition. During which Dorn is still believed to be dead but all they recovered was his hand.

 

That was my recollection also. Also don't forget that by the end of "Praetorian of Dorn":

 

Dorn cuts of Alpharius hands. While it never specifies what he did with them, it is possible he is carrying around a pair of Primarch hands in case he ever needed to fake his own death. Remember the Primarchs are so genetically similar that Curze was able to use his DNA to authorise a Dark Angel drop pod strike in "Unremembered Empire". I rather like the notion that all the IF Chapter Masters have been engraving their names on Alpahrius' bones rather than Dorn's all these millennia.

[Mandragola]

Personally I would be a little surprised if we got another Loyalist primarch any time soon.

 

Any new "resurrection" type thing would be a bit of a copy of what happened to Guilliman. And if they could do it all this time, why not have done it already?

 

There's a lot more scope for them to bring back one of the various Primarchs who are just hanging out in the webway/rock/EoT. You could justify someone like Russ or Corax coming back when the people they're hunting appear.

 

RThe thing is though that narratively they've set this up as Guilliman vs the world. That gets tipped on its head if someone else turns up. I guess that could be cool, seeing any potential conflict between them, but it would also change the set up they've gone for so far.

[Panzer]

Guillimans narrative is at a good point to come to an end and make room for another Primarch though. He introduced Primaris, established himself as leader of the Imperium, concluded a Crusade that went for about 200 years, is reworking the Codex Astartes, repelled Mortarion and the Death Guard (for now), and realised that governing the Imperium is too much work to do for him to be out there on the battlefield at the same time as we could see with the Vigilus campaign where he was completely absent despite its importance and even Abaddon being there.

[TorvaldTheMild]

When did the lore ever say that Dorn was dead? It always stated he was on a ship that exploded and all they found was his hand, so it was implied he was dead, but never said he was dead. So what retcons are you talking about.

Yeah I asked that question myself about a year ago, everyone seems to think he's dead and the only fluff I've read is that he's missing.

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

 

Just because they understand one another doesn't mean the lion agreed with Imperium Secundus, if he sees Guilliman doing it again he'll be pissed.

[No Foes Remain]

Ferrus Manus.

 

 

Hear me out.

 

Spoilers of Master of Mankind just incase.

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Picture this. A REAL threat to Guilliman, maybe another brother has come to kill him. Maybe Fulgrim, wanting to finish the job. Marines of both generations (Original and Primaris) from varying chapters suffering losses, leading to a very possible real defeat for Guilliman. Then traitors start dying at the hands of Custodians and Astartes burnt black, cloaked in flames. The Honoured dead of Isstvan III, Isstvan V, Calth, Phall, Signus, Chondax, Thramas, Beta-Gamon, Terra, the thousand other battles in the Heresy. The Scouring, Nova Terra Interregum, the Reign of Blood, Badab, The Black Crusades. Astartes from all those conflicts, who died for the Emperor and His Imperium, returned. Leading them a Giant with silver arms killing all who dared stand before him and then give Fulgrim a good ass kicking as well. Imagine what that would do for Guilliman. He is alone, the only brothers he has seen are those who turned against the Emperor. Then he sees Him. Ferrus. One of the Dauntless Few, the one he confided with and co-made the Sicaran Tank. His beloved dead brother that he grieved for after his Legion almost died at Calth.

 

That is why, in my personal opinion, it should be Ferrus. If not then Fulgrim or Angron then Ferrus.

Edited September 23, 2019 by No Foes Remain

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea, he didn't get returned to life or anything in master of mankind. There was a psychic manifestation of his form in the emperor's fire.

 

Now if one of the many clones of ferrus survived, that would be something else. Or if trazin let out his clone version of fulgrim.

[MeltaRange]

I think they should make the Sanguinor a LOW and give him primarch-level rules.

[Boytoy]

Ghost ferrus leading a legion of the damned reboot (including heresy, Primaris and custodes troops) would sell like hotcakes

[Gederas]

Ferrus Manus.

 

 

Hear me out.

 

Spoilers of Master of Mankind just incase.

 

Shapes raged in the flames – shadows and suggestions doing battle with the daemons, their fiery forms indistinct and ever-changing. The fire-born avatars of fallen Ten Thousand, knee-deep in psychic fire and thrusting with lances of flame. The silhouettes of Space Marines, the betrayed dead of Isstvan bearing axes and blades and claws; half-seen sigils of slaughtered Legions obscured by the ash of their blackened armour. A giant among giants, its great hands bared and ready as it seared forwards at the crest of the tidal fire. The tenth son of a dying empire, so briefly reborn in his father’s immolating wrath.

 

Picture this. A REAL threat to Guilliman, maybe another brother has come to kill him. Maybe Fulgrim, wanting to finish the job. Marines of both generations (Original and Primaris) from varying chapters suffering losses, leading to a very possible real defeat for Guilliman. Then traitors start dying at the hands of Custodians and Astartes burnt black, cloaked in flames. The Honoured dead of Isstvan III, Isstvan V, Calth, Phall, Signus, Chondax, Thramas, Beta-Gamon, Terra, the thousand other battles in the Heresy. The Scouring, Nova Terra Interregum, the Reign of Blood, Badab, The Black Crusades. Astartes from all those conflicts, who died for the Emperor and His Imperium, returned. Leading them a Giant with silver arms killing all who dared stand before him and then give Fulgrim a good ass kicking as well. Imagine what that would do for Guilliman. He is alone, the only brothers he has seen are those who turned against the Emperor. Then he sees Him. Ferrus. One of the Dauntless Few, the one he confided with and co-made the Sicaran Tank. His beloved dead brother that he grieved for after his Legion almost died at Calth.

 

That is why, in my personal opinion, it should be Ferrus. If not then Fulgrim or Angron then Ferrus.

Yea, he didn't get returned to life or anything in master of mankind. There was a psychic manifestation of his form in the emperor's fire.

 

Now if one of the many clones of ferrus survived, that would be something else. Or if trazin let out his clone version of fulgrim.

The clones of Ferrus and Fulgrim could be an interesting 'loyalist' returning.

 

Ghost ferrus leading a legion of the damned reboot (including heresy, Primaris and custodes troops) would sell like hotcakes

That would also be completely badass. It'd be a perfect way to bring the Legion of the Damned back into proper existence, as presently, they're Index-Only iirc.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Gederas

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think they should make the Sanguinor a LOW and give him primarch-level rules.

That would at least be fluffy.  and they could do a seriously bad ass model for him, it could be all ethereal and saintly and :cuss.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[TorvaldTheMild]

Ghost ferrus leading a legion of the damned reboot (including heresy, Primaris and custodes troops) would sell like hotcakes

Yeah anything but actually bringing him back alive, I think that would be cool and it wouldn't be incredibly stupid having him just instantly come back alive for some nonsense reason, especially seeing that his soul hasn't died, like Horus its just scooting about in the warp being assailed by daemons constantly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What if he was possessed by the Primarch though ?

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, the thing is that there are Primarchs that wanted power, ie to be Warmaster (Horus, Guilliman, Lion, Russ), and there are those loyalists who cared little for ruling (Khan, Corax, Vulcan, Sanguinus, etc). Khan, especially was quoted as believing that ruling was "the great lie" and you stopped being a warrior, and became trapped in a gilded cage. Russ was actually decently content in his role as executioner, he just did not want to be subordinate to the Lion.

 

As much as I love Corax. His impact would be in conflict with a Daemon Primarch, likely Lorgar, because Kurze is no longer there to intervene. Same with Khan, wouldn't want to rule, just be left alone to hunt. The Lion would be best, but honestly, I am not sure how I would feel about Game of Golden Throne.

[crazyterran]

 

When did the lore ever say that Dorn was dead? It always stated he was on a ship that exploded and all they found was his hand, so it was implied he was dead, but never said he was dead. So what retcons are you talking about.

Yeah I asked that question myself about a year ago, everyone seems to think he's dead and the only fluff I've read is that he's missing.

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

 

Just because they understand one another doesn't mean the lion agreed with Imperium Secundus, if he sees Guilliman doing it again he'll be pissed.

 

He certainly didn't do anything to stop Imperium Secundus, and was perfectly fine being Warmaster and doing his own thing while Guilliman and Sanguinius played politics on Macragge. 

 

I imagine much of what the Lion does depends on how Guilliman reacts - I imagine if it's something along the lines of "Oh, thank goodness you are back, Lion, please go kill our daemonic brothers" the Lion would be fine. Even someone as tunnel visioned as Lion El'johnson would realize that if Guilliman was the only one around, obviously he'd be in charge. 

[Mandragola]

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the "golly gee have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman could also respond to any criticism with something like "I was dead, what's your excuse?". Anyone who didn't like how things turned out could have intervened much sooner instead of heading off on their own personal side quests.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

When did the lore ever say that Dorn was dead? It always stated he was on a ship that exploded and all they found was his hand, so it was implied he was dead, but never said he was dead. So what retcons are you talking about.

Yeah I asked that question myself about a year ago, everyone seems to think he's dead and the only fluff I've read is that he's missing.

 

 

I think it might be Johnson. People talk about there being a big confrontation with guilliman but he did run the show after the heresy and I don't know why it would be a big shock to find him running things again now.

 

It feels like a melee focused, combat monster primarch is needed for the loyalists and Russ I think was fairly broken at the end if the heresy, his legion spent (and I think they are in a bad way currently as well) and his role as the emperor's executioner abandoned.

 

Johnson seems a more natural fit for a traitor hating, ruthless anti chaos monster who could lead his own personal crusade with a legion sized dark angels force to re conquer the galaxy.

It would be because of Imperium Secundus, the Lion was completely against that and thought it was a terrible idea. He only agreed because Sanguinius was to be the figure head, so I think if he comes back he will be quite pissed, seeing that Guilliman has always desired power. The Lion was far more broken, he wanted a fight to the death with Russ, thinking that there was nothing left in life to do anymore. Russ wasn't broken at all in comparison, he was actually quite stoic. I don't know where you are getting that, I think you are mixing him up with Bjorn after Russ left. Most of the legions strength was spent, but I don't see how that is relevant.

The Lion and Guilliman reached a mutual understanding and respect by the end of the Ruinstorm story. There is no grudge, animosity or anything like that between them.

 

As for who's coming back: It would be easiest to bring the Lion back because he's in a known location, and because he's been in a coma this whole time he can return as very much the same established character.

 

Russ, Dorn, Corax, Khan and Vulkan are all plausable to return also.

 

Just because they understand one another doesn't mean the lion agreed with Imperium Secundus, if he sees Guilliman doing it again he'll be pissed.

 

He certainly didn't do anything to stop Imperium Secundus, and was perfectly fine being Warmaster and doing his own thing while Guilliman and Sanguinius played politics on Macragge. 

 

I imagine much of what the Lion does depends on how Guilliman reacts - I imagine if it's something along the lines of "Oh, thank goodness you are back, Lion, please go kill our daemonic brothers" the Lion would be fine. Even someone as tunnel visioned as Lion El'johnson would realize that if Guilliman was the only one around, obviously he'd be in charge. 

 

Not so, the 12 lords of terra were always to be in-charge, Guillimans biggest weakness is his thirst for power, Imperial Secundus, his first Lord Commander position, his codex astartes and now he's made himself Lord Commander again.  The Angel was against Imperium Secundus because of Guilliman, he only agreed to it because Sanguinius was to be the figure head.  I think the Lion see's Guillimans weakness.  Also Guilliman not doing anything against the Imperial cult would be an issue, I mean Guilliman has been involved in allowing people to be burned at the stake, he's allowed the status qou to continue.  Also its more interesting to the lore if their is tension between Guilliman and the next Primarch, it would be a wasted opportunity for them to just bro out.

[Dark_Jober]

Well...

I think the most obvious is Lion, because las DA codex clearly advances in that way.

 

But we should remember that in "Ashes of Prospero", IIRC the SW runepriest talks about the returning of other Primarchs...
I think most of us were waiting the return of Leman Russ with the 8th ED codex.

 

But there is also some small details about Corax and Khan.

 

I think the easiest is Vulkan, we know he was alive when The Beast (series) so he could be still alive. But maybe not the best for sales...

[TorvaldTheMild]

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the ":cuss have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

Guilliman could also respond to any criticism with something like "I was dead, what's your excuse?". Anyone who didn't like how things turned out could have intervened much sooner instead of heading off on their own personal side quests.

Guilliman has done nothing to curb the ecclesiarchy, like I said he's even been complicit in burning people alive, merely for disobeying an order.  He wasn't dead, you are also assuming you know what the other Primarchs are up to and that they are capable coming back anytime they want.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[ShibeKing]

I think the next loyalist primarch should be Russ. Just so he comes back full Wulfen and I can have a laugh at my friend's expense.

 

Edit. On a more serious note I hope he returns and turns things around for the Wolves.

Edited September 23, 2019 by ShibeKing

[TorvaldTheMild]

I think the next loyalist primarch should be Russ. Just so he comes back full Wulfen and I can have a laugh at my friend's expense.

 

Edit. On a more serious note I hope he returns and turns things around for the Wolves.

GW are stupid enough to do that as well lol.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well, the thing is that there are Primarchs that wanted power, ie to be Warmaster (Horus, Guilliman, Lion, Russ), and there are those loyalists who cared little for ruling (Khan, Corax, Vulcan, Sanguinus, etc). Khan, especially was quoted as believing that ruling was "the great lie" and you stopped being a warrior, and became trapped in a gilded cage. Russ was actually decently content in his role as executioner, he just did not want to be subordinate to the Lion.

 

 

Where do you get the idea that Russ wanted power from? In all the HH material they've produced pre-Heresy Russ has been entirely accepting of his position and role, and there's been no indication he coveted the Warmaster title. Hawser may have assumed Russ would have wanted the title in PB (can't recall 100%), but he's quickly shut down, and that seemed to come from Hawser assuming all Primarchs wanted to be Warmaster.

 

Personally I would be a little surprised if we got another Loyalist primarch any time soon.

 

Any new "resurrection" type thing would be a bit of a copy of what happened to Guilliman. And if they could do it all this time, why not have done it already?

 

Because they didn't have a body? Gulliman was the only Primarch iirc that was 'on ice' as it were (apart from Jonson in The Rock, but not even the DAs knew he was there).

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

Well, the thing is that there are Primarchs that wanted power, ie to be Warmaster (Horus, Guilliman, Lion, Russ), and there are those loyalists who cared little for ruling (Khan, Corax, Vulcan, Sanguinus, etc). Khan, especially was quoted as believing that ruling was "the great lie" and you stopped being a warrior, and became trapped in a gilded cage. Russ was actually decently content in his role as executioner, he just did not want to be subordinate to the Lion.

 

 

Where do you get the idea that Russ wanted power from? In all the HH material they've produced pre-Heresy Russ has been entirely accepting of his position and role, and there's been no indication he coveted the Warmaster title. Hawser may have assumed Russ would have wanted the title in PB (can't recall 100%), but he's quickly shut down, and that seemed to come from Hawser assuming all Primarchs wanted to be Warmaster.

 

Personally I would be a little surprised if we got another Loyalist primarch any time soon.

 

Any new "resurrection" type thing would be a bit of a copy of what happened to Guilliman. And if they could do it all this time, why not have done it already?

 

Because they didn't have a body? Gulliman was the only Primarch iirc that was 'on ice' as it were (apart from Jonson in The Rock, but not even the DAs knew he was there).

 

Yeah he didn't want the title, in Prospero Burns Hawzer tries to goad the wolves with saying Russ never got the title, but they were just upset that they didn't get to go to Ullanor and said Russ never wanted it because it was never his Wyrd.  Also the bit where he didn't want to be ordered by the Lion is head cannon as well.

Edited September 23, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[redmapa]

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the ":cuss have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

 

Dorn wouldnt, out of all the Primarchs hes the only one that saw the rise of the cult of the emperor ascendant and saw it spread through the Imperium and unlike Guilliman he accepted it along with the idea of Emperor as a divine being. Dorn is the opposite of Guilliman in that regard because he lived long enough to see the Imperium change so there is no cultural shock like Guilliman had.

 

Corax is also similar in this regard but for a different reason, Guilliman is tied to facts and reason, to a certain paradigm and a post-eye of terror Corax has gone beyond the ideals of yesterday and sees his existence and probably the Emperors completely different from Guilliman, I dont think Corax would complain about the Imperium or more esoteric questions when he has willingly become a "thing of the warp", would he see the Emperor as insane and the Imperium as a rotten dream or see Him moving to a new era and the new paradigm that Guilliman is struggling with?

[Panzer]

 

Any new Primarch would also have to go through the ":cuss have they done with the Imperium" bit that Bobby G experienced. Some of them would potentially be more cross about the whole Ecclesiarchy thing than Guilliman.

 

Dorn wouldnt, out of all the Primarchs hes the only one that saw the rise of the cult of the emperor ascendant and saw it spread through the Imperium and unlike Guilliman he accepted it along with the idea of Emperor as a divine being. Dorn is the opposite of Guilliman in that regard because he lived long enough to see the Imperium change so there is no cultural shock like Guilliman had.

 

Corax is also similar in this regard but for a different reason, Guilliman is tied to facts and reason, to a certain paradigm and a post-eye of terror Corax has gone beyond the ideals of yesterday and sees his existence and probably the Emperors completely different from Guilliman, I dont think Corax would complain about the Imperium or more esoteric questions when he has willingly become a "thing of the warp", would he see the Emperor as insane and the Imperium as a rotten dream or see Him moving to a new era and the new paradigm that Guilliman is struggling with?

 

 

Didn't Vulkan return for a short time as well before telling his sons he'll only return if they succeed treasure hunt? So he shouldn't be too surprised about the state of the Imperium either. He's probably sitting on some planet doing his thing and observing everything anyway.

Edited September 23, 2019 by sfPanzer