Raven Guard Retex and tactica

[faithonwings]

That’s a good point. To guard against that I’m going to design a set of Warlord Traits (Relics?) and Stratagems based on going First or Second.

 

At the moment I’m focused on First.

 

The point is, for myself, I plan on using my Chaplain and his Shadow Guard (Assault Centurions) together. Preferably start on the board buffed by chappie and Transhuman Physiology if needed, or Striking from the Shadows, depending on the pregame factors. I wouldn’t call it a Distraction Carnifex per se because I plan to give it every opportunity to be effective but if it is focused on my opponent is going to have to spend a ton of resources and frees up the Aggressors, Incursors, and Intercessors (all x2) to control the midfield Objectives.

 

That’s the plan at least.

I had the same idea about a going first, going second list. Only I'll proppably go for raptors and take 3" extra on my flamers. Storm of fire is going on my "I go first list", toghether with MoA than chaplain for +1 to wound on flamer agressors so they van double tab.

 

My go second list would prop be the WL trait to deny overwatch, going to put it on a cheap luitenant with jump pack and tie up as much as it can. Then charge in with assault centurions. Something like that.

[Dracos]

:)

 

That’s the joy and bane of building a double battalion. Lots of CP is nice but after the obligatory 6 troops and 4 HQ, I still want 3-4 punch your face units, 3-4 support units. So we’re talking anywhere from 16-18 drops.

 

Pretty much guaranteed to go second with an army designed to throw a hard first punch, even if that punch is in T2.

 

Tells me that anything on the board T1 needs to be tough as nails, out of line of sight, or expendable. Which isn’t exactly best traits of the Primaris. :(

 

Exterminators and Intercessors in cover are must takes. Add a couple Incursors or Infiltrators and you have the needed on board unit numbers but not the Points or PL (that still a thing right?).

 

How do we get around that? My though is design as many HQs that can start on the board as possible. They still have to support your overall game plan though. I believe Phobos Librarian and Phobos Lt. are must for this and I’m still working out best way to use Master of Ambush through multiple mission setting to see if there are more positives than not to the idea of sticking it on my Primaris Chaplain.

 

<Counts As> Shrike will always start off board for me. Always. He’s my assassin and T2 Inceptor buff. Maybe run to with Reivers if I ever rework my current new list to use them.

 

 

 

Time for my students. I’ll be working on these ideas and adding others later today. Preparing for going 2nd might make a good Blog :)

[Nusquam]

The double Battalion Raptors list definitely had more drops in my games thus far, one more this weekend coming up. While I did get lucky and go first it wasn't something I was counting on due to the alternating format.

 

 

Planning for going second in this format saw me planning on starting everything on the board in a threatening position pregame. My Devs's in cover, my bolter scouts and infiltrators applying pressure to weak points, repulsor and talon in opposite corners, etc. My scouts one game were a speed bump for a lancer since they cant move over infantry unless falling back. It risks first strike VP but forces players to really think on target priority and increases their error margin on selection.

 

Plus all the extra CP for Transhuman and Prepared Positions if needed.

[ShinyRhino]

How are you guys taking WL traits after knowing who goes first? Traits are determined before any models hit the board.

[chapter master 454]

How are you guys taking WL traits after knowing who goes first? Traits are determined before any models hit the board.

 

Was going to say that myself. If you want to have a list with that sort of thing you have to cook it into the list itself as an option select really (fight game talk, basically when you do something with multiple outcomes you get the best outcome). Thankfully master of ambush is helpful for that as shuffling forward seems to happen after seize, so just keep the centurions ether just out of LoS (I know, hard to do) or keep them in cover and trans-human should help weather initial storms.

[faithonwings]

A lot of missions determen who goes first in the mission discription. Others do it by random dice roll. All of it is before the battle starts. There are no rules that the battle starts the very second after a roll of or deployment that is finished so until one player starts with his movement phase it's still pre game. You can still use stratagems etc. at this point.

 

Some tournaments limit the use of stratagems pre game used to be included in you'r army list obviously, you are limited here in it's use. It's not RAW however.

[Nusquam]

I always think in terms of event format where wvwyrhing is set pregame when I list build. If the event I have coming up determined who went first before deployment I would use Trifold to give my WL a second trait on top of Ambush. I would then plant them and a unit in the corner if its obvious to the unit I would use like cents or aggressors, then deploy them aggressively or conservatively accordingly. If I'm not doing a specific unit I would use Ambush to optimize firing solutions. Second Trait would depend on format. Echo for missions that have far flung objectives or score at the end. Or use Trifold to get Ambush on top of a main WLT like Imperiums Sword.

[dode74]

How are you guys taking WL traits after knowing who goes first? Traits are determined before any models hit the board.

WL traits are selected "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army" (BRB page 186) as are psychic powers (BRB page 178).  Relics is less clear, but is at some point before traits/powers and at or after army creation.  You have to know who the WL is on army creation, though (BRB page 214), and you need that in order to know which Relic access you have. 

 

CA18 missions have you roll to see who determines which deployment map you're using and to choose a zone, then you deploy with the roll loser deploying first and taking the first turn.  Since you choose much of the above "immediately before" deployment you do it after the roll, so you know who is going first.  ITC is different to this, I believe.

[duz_]

ITC order of ops

 

Pre-Game

Step 1: Before any dice are rolled, players adjust and define terrain on the board, then both players choose Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, spend pre-deployment command points, free relic, and any additional Relics they wish to use. These should be written or notated clearly for reference in game.

 

Step 2: Players reveal the items from step 1 to each other simultaneously.

 

Deployment Map & Objectives

...

 

[chapter master 454]

ITC order of ops

 

Pre-Game

Step 1: Before any dice are rolled, players adjust and define terrain on the board, then both players choose Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, spend pre-deployment command points, free relic, and any additional Relics they wish to use. These should be written or notated clearly for reference in game.

 

Step 2: Players reveal the items from step 1 to each other simultaneously.

 

Deployment Map & Objectives

...

 

 

This is something I actually like about the ITC clarifying the order of operations and yet it still enables you to opt in or out of relics/traits according to opponent armies but not to the point of tailoring to exact lists which is nice.

[Archon_77]

This is amazing info!  As I'm just getting back into playing does anyone have any references or videos tailored to familiarizing oneself to ITC as a format?  I'm thinking "Crash Course" but for ITC.

[sultansean]

So for competitive ITC play deep striking Assault Centurions seem like the best option to me as Raven Guard Successors. My understanding is that successors also get "Surgical Strike" which is nice for the eliminators and for the centurions if facing knights.

 

My plan would be to use SFTS to come in turn 2 or 3 with the centurions, Issodon, and a captain. The flamers with long range marksman,  and hurricane bolters have a ton of shots, and then I have +2 to charge, and hopefully wrap things with the centurions.

 

The eliminators can target characters and with the instigator carbines, screen against deep strikers. The thunder fire cannon can use the excellent shoot twice and movement blocking strats to control enemy counter charges.

 

Thinking about other top lists, GSC, Iron Hands, Eldar Flyers, Plague bearer Chaos, I think this list theoretically has answers to all of them. But i would be interests if other people agree.   

 

 

I'd also love peoples thoughts on warlord trait and relic selection.      
   

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [108 PL, 2,000pts, -2CP] ++

 

 

**Chapter Selection**: Hungry for Battle, Long-range Marksmen, Raptors, Raven Guard Successor

 

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 103pts]: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Teeth of Terra, The Imperium's Sword, Warlord

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts, -1CP]: Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Thunder hammer, Warlord

 

Lias Issodon [10 PL, 195pts]

 

Librarian [6 PL, 116pts]: Boltgun, Force stave, Jump Pack, Reliquary of Gathalamor

 

Lieutenants [5 PL, 60pts]

. Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 94pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 94pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 94pts]: Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. 5x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. 5x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. 5x Scout w/Boltgun

 

 

+ Elites +

 

Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 312pts]

. 6x Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

 

 

Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 312pts]

. 6x  Centurion: Hurricane bolter

. . Flamers: 2x Flamer

 

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 74pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 74pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Camo cloak, Instigator Bolt Carbine

. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

 

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]

. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak

. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

++ Total: [108 PL, -2CP, 2,000pts] ++

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Neat list in theory. Not sure how I feel about you effectively having no real way to deal with vehicles T1. It feels very "one trick pony" - which there isn't anything wrong with, just makes it very one-dimensional.

 

You can split this up into 2 Battalions and a Spearhead to give you 75% more CP

 

If you want to run a Teeth of Terra Captain and you also want to use Champion of Humanity, id consider putting them together. If you use Trifold Path and couple that with Master of Vigilance, if youre in Tactical doctrine and attacking a character, you will be producing Mortal Wounds on 4+ against characters, which isn't half bad.

 

Something like this maybe:

 

Captain [6 PL, 103pts, -1CP]: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Teeth of Terra, Champion of Humanity, Warlord, Master of the Tri-fold Path - Master of Vigilance

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts, -2CP]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, Warlord, The Imperium's Sword

[faithonwings]

 

 

How are you guys taking WL traits after knowing who goes first? Traits are determined before any models hit the board.

WL traits are selected "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army" (BRB page 186) as are psychic powers (BRB page 178). Relics is less clear, but is at some point before traits/powers and at or after army creation. You have to know who the WL is on army creation, though (BRB page 214), and you need that in order to know which Relic access you have.

 

CA18 missions have you roll to see who determines which deployment map you're using and to choose a zone, then you deploy with the roll loser deploying first and taking the first turn. Since you choose much of the above "immediately before" deployment you do it after the roll, so you know who is going first. ITC is different to this, I believe.

Of course this is for the warlord. But you can have two aditional warlord traits on models ussing stratagems. The stratagems specifies that those "warlords" are only considerd a warlord for the purpose of that trait. Hence you should be able to play the stratagems even after deployment, as long as it is before the game starts.

 

Also, in case of some missions, you can know what player begins first before the start of deployment.

 

As for ITC, I know to little about it to use or debate their rules. I never heard anyone playing ITC in the Netherlands.

 

@sultansean

 

Nice list, was thing about using something similair, but for me it's a long term project. I was thinking about using 3 units of 4 centurions or 2 of 4 and one agressors unit. 4 centurions on average do enough dame to kill a knight in combat, the rest is overkill. Using 3 smaller units means you might get the chance to charge 3 big targets at once or 2 big ones T2 and another T3 without exposing al precious centurions at once.

Edited October 3, 2019 by faithonwings

[duz_]

ITC is fairly popular in the US and I believe growing in certain parts of the EU.

 

The format plays slightly different to standard missions so seems fair to include it in discussions here.

 

 

Edit.

 

Do not take this post as an opening to compare the mission set types.

Edited October 3, 2019 by duz_

[sultansean]

 

Neat list in theory. Not sure how I feel about you effectively having no real way to deal with vehicles T1. It feels very "one trick pony" - which there isn't anything wrong with, just makes it very one-dimensional.

 

You can split this up into 2 Battalions and a Spearhead to give you 75% more CP

 

If you want to run a Teeth of Terra Captain and you also want to use Champion of Humanity, id consider putting them together. If you use Trifold Path and couple that with Master of Vigilance, if youre in Tactical doctrine and attacking a character, you will be producing Mortal Wounds on 4+ against characters, which isn't half bad.

 

Something like this maybe:

 

Captain [6 PL, 103pts, -1CP]: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Teeth of Terra, Champion of Humanity, Warlord, Master of the Tri-fold Path - Master of Vigilance

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts, -2CP]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Master Crafted Thunder hammer, Warlord, The Imperium's Sword

 

 

 

Yes, the list is two battalions and a spearhead, I should have clarified that. 

 

T1 is going to be dedicated to hiding out of LOS and surviving. It does not seem to me like RG have a way to reliably deal with vehicles turn 1, without relying on getting first turn. And when I come in turn 2 I can be in Tactical doctrine to surgical strike any Leviathan Character dreads, with massed bolter fire. Do we have another idea for reliably killing vehicles T1? Las Fusil eliminators?  

 

My thought is to assume I am going second, and given the choice would probably choose second to help with scoring objectives and secondaries.   

 

I also wanted to minimize crucial fail able rolls, hence Issodon instead of a Shadowstepping Chaplain to add bonuses to charges. 

 

 

I like your character setups, I was looking into it more and agree that Champion of Humanity pairs well with Teeth of Terra  

 

Couple Rules Questions:

 

Does "Token of Brotherhood" stratagem just mean that your free relic can be from the RG, or is it paying one CP for an extra relic? which can be used on top of the free relic. For example can I select: 

 

- Free Relic- Teeth of Terra

- 1 CP- Relics of the Chapter- Tome of Malcador

-  1 Cp- Relics of the Chapter- Master crafted weapon  

- 1 CP Token of Brotherhood - Raven's fury   

 

Is there consensus on whether Tome of Malcador allows selecting a spell from both Umbramancy and the Librarius discipline? 

[Nusquam]

Tome of Malacodr allows an additional power fron a discipline the libby has access to, not any table. If want you umbramancy then that detachment only has access to that. Phobos libby only has access to Obscur and the libby only has access to Librarius.

 

The old wording in the previous dex was thebtome explicitly granted access to another Librarius spell. Now its only what that libby has access to and no libby has access to more than one discipline.

 

The wording on token of brotherhood is throwing me though, does it actually give you the relic in its cost or just access to it? The use of instead makes me think it is for the free relic or for using relics of the chapter and changing the selection rules for 1cp rather than granting it.

[faithonwings]

The way I read ToB says you can have a RG relic in place of a normale one. So you pay 1CP for not getting An extra relic.

[faithonwings]

 

 

How are you guys taking WL traits after knowing who goes first? Traits are determined before any models hit the board.

WL traits are selected "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army" (BRB page 186) as are psychic powers (BRB page 178). Relics is less clear, but is at some point before traits/powers and at or after army creation. You have to know who the WL is on army creation, though (BRB page 214), and you need that in order to know which Relic access you have.

 

CA18 missions have you roll to see who determines which deployment map you're using and to choose a zone, then you deploy with the roll loser deploying first and taking the first turn. Since you choose much of the above "immediately before" deployment you do it after the roll, so you know who is going first. ITC is different to this, I believe.

Of course this is for the warlord. But you can have two aditional warlord traits on models ussing stratagems. The stratagems specifies that those "warlords" are only considerd a warlord for the purpose of that trait. Hence you should be able to play the stratagems even after deployment, as long as it is before the game starts.

 

Also, in case of some missions, you can know what player begins first before the start of deployment.

 

As for ITC, I know to little about it to use or debate their rules. I never heard anyone playing ITC in the Netherlands.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea it seems token of brotherhood replaces the free relic for successors.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Yea it seems token of brotherhood replaces the free relic for successors.

 

I agree, I just read it and this is how I interpret it as well.

[Dracos]

 

Of course this is for the warlord. But you can have two aditional warlord traits on models ussing stratagems. The stratagems specifies that those "warlords" are only considerd a warlord for the purpose of that trait. Hence you should be able to play the stratagems even after deployment, as long as it is before the game starts.

 

Also, in case of some missions, you can know what player begins first before the start of deployment.

 

 

It might just be my opinion, but Trifold path say to pick the extra WT after nominating your Warlord. I'd consider it pretty gamey if someone tried to assign one after what seemed should be a sequential action

[faithonwings]

That's a difference in perspective. I read it to be cronologicly, not neccesary sequential. It says that the warlord must be known before ussing the stratagem. Which makes sence, because you need to pick a target that is not the warlord for the stratagem and how else would you fo that?

 

It might be gamy, but is it against the rules?? I think this flexibility is the way the stratagems where ment to be used.

[Dracos]

You could very well be right and its just one of a few things I hope gets addressed in a FAQ. I'm good if its stays true. It adds another element to our shenangans and not really OP ... just feels gamey given its current wording. 

[faithonwings]

I share you'r hopes about addresing it in the FAQ. I do believe this how the rules are written, but to guess if this is how they are intended to be used? That's anyone's guess really