Raven Guard Retex and tactica

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sure, and certain lists will heavily benefit from master artisans too. But I really dislike investing heavily in one dude that a has a very limited output; character threat is nice, but at the end of the day it's 4 damage. At least when I see people going all in on smash captains or chaplains or centurion bombs, I can see those and think "man, that pay off is going to be huge if things work out". Those units can decide games; the bolt captain will be a frustration, but still one that eats up a relic and warlord trait.

[L30n1d4s]

Right, but you don't have to take either the Relic or the WL Trait... however, if you are playing an army with lots of 4W characters (i.e. Genestealer Cults, Astra Miltarum, Ork support characters, SM support characters, etc.) or an army with lots of 4W units (Centurions, Custodes Jetbikes, DE Grotesques, etc.), then you can invest the CP before the game begins to "power up" your Phobos Captain and have him reliable kill an expensive/dangerous 4W model every turn, quite easily making his points back (and this is on top of his Capt reroll aura, 12" deep strike denial, etc.)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Flexibility is good for sure, and not having to commit outside of tournaments allows you to not have to over-invest in list building.

 

But, I feel like people only really take a phobos captain when they're going to leverage a relic combo or infiltrators. You don't just take a phobos captain; you want it for a reason. And if that reason is "Go all in as a sniper", then you should be investing your cp into better areas. The math just isn't actually reliable for most targets; a master artisan phobos captain will still only have a 54% chance to kill a company commander, 60% with surgical strikes. Gsc would be similar, if they couldn't pass it off on 4+. Centurions and custode bikes aren't reliable targets either, as you come out with a 20% to kill.

 

I'm still going to take the unit in my next game to test it out, but I'm not expecting miracles from it. I still need an average of 2 rounds of shooting to kill a non-primaris marine support character...with surgical strikes up.

Edited October 18, 2019 by SkimaskMohawk

[Bluflash]

I take him in ITC because with the bolts, he's still useful when I dump him in a box and deny a corner of the board against big deep strike armies, and with a ExT lieutenant, and two units of eliminators, they stand a good chance or removing a character or two a turn.

[Brom MKIV]

I agree it's not a reliable kill shot. It's a luck shot really.

 

That said when it goes through its brutal so its going into my toolbox of the Phobos captain. I have at least one opponent who always runs triple TFCs not to mention all the xenos targets of 4w or even Libby's and LTs.

Pre game I'll decide as usual what to take between 3 relics and assign hero trait appropriately. This army is the height of adaptation and now that it's officially clarified I'll personally consider using it.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[MajorNese]

Right, but you don't have to take either the Relic or the WL Trait... however, if you are playing an army with lots of 4W characters [...], then you can invest the CP before the game begins to "power up" your Phobos Captain and have him reliable kill an expensive/dangerous 4W model every turn, quite easily making his points back (and this is on top of his Capt reroll aura, 12" deep strike denial, etc.)

This might be the deciding point for me - have the power-ups as options, if the situation requires it.

My go-to free relic is Ex Tenebris anyway. That thing is just damn good. Korvidari bolts are worth it pretty much any time, either on an Eliminator sarge, or if including said phobos captain, as any opponent will try to break LoS for their characters.

 

The captain does find uses when combined with the Ex Tenebris lieutenant - one allows them to reroll hits, the other reroll wounds.

Captain having an anti-DS bubble (that is active until end of the game, when usual DS coverage gets gaps) can be a deciding factor against certain opponents.

If I need to spend another CP just to bump his one shot up to 4D, that heavily depends on what my opponent brings. Though even 4W characters can be finished off by Eliminators in a pinch, the 1W difference can be accomplished with the out-of-LoS ammo.

[Archon_77]

Further, I have always liked Phobos Capt for the ability to spread his buff bubble to any Infiltrators we have, wherever they happen to be via the Comms Array (for 10 points of course) but it wasnt really enough to invest/pull off the combo.  With the ability to get that gun up to that profile via Korvidae, it really puts him over the edge for me personally.  I'll be doing some play testing with him this weekend to see for sure, but I REALLY like it when units work in tandem to do cool stuff.

[Nusquam]

Trying out the 4th iteration of  my list for a tournament tomorrow against skittles and knights. I have a relic contemptor with two fists that will love SbrU for the -1. Plus now I know I can use it on both Infiltrator squads after popping smoke for two untis with a -2 if needed. This also means A Deadly Prize is spammable too. Of course trying the Phobos/bolt combo too.

[jpwyrm]

Interesting... What's the rest of the list? Do you play a varied meta or is it more focused on some factions?

[Dracos]

I’m very interested to see how opponents react to Incursors laying Haywire Mines and then having Deadly Prize activated on them? The only thing I’d like to ... but won’t ... is to add Impulsors and Orbital Strikes to other Objectives.

 

Sadly this wouldn’t work well with an army who could use Hordes to “defuse” the Haywire mines which cost 10pt as opposed to 1CP but I should be using volumes of cheap Bolter fire to make that not a thing shouldn’t I ?

[Jacques Corbin]

I’m very interested to see how opponents react to Incursors laying Haywire Mines and then having Deadly Prize activated on them? The only thing I’d like to ... but won’t ... is to add Impulsors and Orbital Strikes to other Objectives.

 

Sadly this wouldn’t work well with an army who could use Hordes to “defuse” the Haywire mines which cost 10pt as opposed to 1CP but I should be using volumes of cheap Bolter fire to make that not a thing shouldn’t I ?

Honestly, add Scout Bikers with Cluster Mines, and you might be onto something there.

[chapter master 454]

Against horde, it won't be so hot for the mines but really I think the big pay off is the mass of them. Plant one on an objective marker, touch it with your stand power of killer queen and just look at them when they draw that objective. Want to risk up to 6 mortal wounds there buddy? Or even just using the objective itself as a "mine" itself when facing enemies who want to get close.

 

However I believe deadly prize isn't over the top however I can see it being powerful during later game turns when armies are weaker and units not so able to gung-ho D3 mortal wounds on themselves.

[ShinyRhino]

I like the idea of using the mines like a claymore. "This side toward enemy." Dump the mine right in front of the squad before a unit gets near to charge them. They've got to eat the mortal wounds in order to make the charge move.

Even more fun if the squad was defending an objective you trapped with Deadly Prize.

[Jacques Corbin]

Anybody else notice, Shrike has 14" movement, and so do Impulsors? Does that get anybody else thinking? Shrike, moving up the board, screened by Impulsors? Maybe bring the Hellblasters along, have them jump out and shoot with Chapter Master rerolls...

[Dracos]

Legit. If all the other Primaris units I want to use weren’t so expensive compared to using SftS I’d be all over at least 2 Impulsors.

[MajorNese]

Anybody else notice, Shrike has 14" movement, and so do Impulsors? Does that get anybody else thinking? Shrike, moving up the board, screened by Impulsors? Maybe bring the Hellblasters along, have them jump out and shoot with Chapter Master rerolls...

I'd say that quite limits what the Impulsor is designed to do - it's a primaris drop pod, using it as a shield keeps it back quite a bit.

 

Think about it - it moves 14" with fly, across terrain/models, 3" disembark, regular movement, resulting in 23" effective movement range for the squad inside.

It starts on the board, so any unit would touch the enemy deployment zone turn 1, which is a lot faster than Shrike (who could only end up in the unit's bubble range if he advances).

 

My first ideas of using an Impulsor would be to dump Reivers right in front of the enemy backfield. Block areas, throw a flashbang to debuff a shooty infantry unit, provide Ld debuff.

The other idea would be to reinforce a Concealed Deployment firebase with Tacticus units and HQs - SftS and other deep strike options are limited to turn 2+ and sometimes cost CPs.

 

Both roles could be combined, when sending Reivers towards the enemy backfield (or objective -> Deadly Prize?) and the HQ to the midfield.

The ridiculous effective movement range could make it really flexible to deploy, and units without Concealed Deployment usually bring more firepower per point than CD units.

 

From then on, it's in quite a funny position - it's ridiculously fast, but doesn't have any considerable firepower, so it's on the lower end of the target priority.

Especially with the shield dome upgrade, it can just do the Dark Eldar thing and lock stuff in CC for all eternity.

 

I'll probably build one for starters and see where it fits.

[thewarriorhunter]

I need to slowly make my way through this whole thread but a comment in another thread brings up a question. I can't remember who made it in what thread but it was about master crafting a Power Fist for a Smash captain instead of a TH. If I did that then the damage profile for the Power Fist would be D3+1, correct?

 

I like that idea because it's always putting out minimum 2 damage and potentially 4 per hit while being 31 points cheaper than the Thammer version. Might not look as cool but based on averages it's pretty close to just as effective.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I need to slowly make my way through this whole thread but a comment in another thread brings up a question. I can't remember who made it in what thread but it was about master crafting a Power Fist for a Smash captain instead of a TH. If I did that then the damage profile for the Power Fist would be D3+1, correct?

 

I like that idea because it's always putting out minimum 2 damage and potentially 4 per hit while being 31 points cheaper than the Thammer version. Might not look as cool but based on averages it's pretty close to just as effective.

 

This is correct, its D3+1, which is effectively 3 Damage averaged out.

 

Its basically 31 points versus a CP, and if that value shakes out for you.

[Brom MKIV]

I need to slowly make my way through this whole thread but a comment in another thread brings up a question. I can't remember who made it in what thread but it was about master crafting a Power Fist for a Smash captain instead of a TH. If I did that then the damage profile for the Power Fist would be D3+1, correct?

 

I like that idea because it's always putting out minimum 2 damage and potentially 4 per hit while being 31 points cheaper than the Thammer version. Might not look as cool but based on averages it's pretty close to just as effective.

That was me. Some don't like it. thing is its much cheaper and you don't have to MC it. If theres no good targets save the CP. Totally my go to now. 

If your in real heavy hitter territory though like knights then obviously you want the hammer MC.

 

Edit- I posted a wip pic in the gallery but can't figure out how to link it.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Brom MKIV]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/gallery/sizes/269795-imag45542/medium/

 

On my phone so this is what I'm limited to..

Edited October 24, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[Shas Oh Dear]

On the topic of mc fists, I've been looking at running a chaplain with mc fist to support my fist Vv's. With mantra of str a jump pack chaplain averages 4 damage on his 5 attacks but can also give reroll to hit when you don't want him in combat himself.

[ShinyRhino]

So I'm really struggling with my Phobos Captain. I just finished a tourney today, and he was largely useless all day. His only real accomplishment was sniping down two Eldar Warlocks with Korvidari Bolts out of his instigator rifle.

 

I just can't seem to get him to do much besides sit in the back. I didn't have any games in which he'd have made an impact via Master of Ambush. I gave him Rites of War in two games just to sit on an objective. The last game I gave him both Echoes of the Ravenspire and Rites of War. I drew the Priority Orders maelstrom card for him, but Echoes required too many turns off the board to make it worth using to claim that objective.

 

At this point, I'm feeling like dropping him entirely and using the Phobos Lieutenant as my Warlord instead. He can at least run with forward units like Reivers, Infiltrators, Incursors, etc and give buffs like Master of the Vanguard.

 

Or am I being too conservative with my Captain, and he should be moving forward and giving those same buffs instead of camping the back? He's just got no way to defend himself if he ends up in melee unless I invest a relic slot into Oppressors End.

[dode74]

I think you're right to have him at the back, but isn't there another character you could use as a warlord to make use of MoA?

 

As an aside, if you are to make him your W/L (or give him a trait via the stratagem) then I'd give Marksman's Honours for the +1D alongside Korvidari Bolts.

[ShinyRhino]

I think you're right to have him at the back, but isn't there another character you could use as a warlord to make use of MoA?

 

As an aside, if you are to make him your W/L (or give him a trait via the stratagem) then I'd give Marksman's Honours for the +1D alongside Korvidari Bolts.

Definitely an option. The problem I found was that he really struggled to wound anything with the S4 of his rifle. The only characters he reliably threatened were the Eldar.

 

I do need to work harder to keep a Lieutenant near him at all times. My current Lieutenants are an auto bolt rifle and stalker bolt rifle, and I move them around with my infantry, leaving the Captain without wounds rerolls. Definitely something I need to remedy.

[Brom MKIV]

That performance I'd say is pretty typical unless going successors with artisans. I don't see an LT doing much different though honestly.

 

A phobos captain is like getting a discount on infiltrators due to omni scrambler, plus what is basically a relic gun to begin with.

 

If you were to continue using him I'd look at the him from that perspective and then have prepared which matches you want the bolts vs ex tenebris (if not already present) vs oppressors end. Meaning don't make him the warlord but instead a potential hero candidate- with or without a relic. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Brom MKIV