Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s too early to say for sure that is how they will go. I hope they opt to flesh out the game more.

[BitsHammer]

It’s too early to say for sure that is how they will go. I hope they opt to flesh out the game more.

Book one of PA shows them fleshing things out more. Hopefully when the codexes come out proper we'll see some real tools added in.

 

Either way, I see this as a major shift to support narrative play more and it makes me pretty happy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, they definitely seem to be allowing you to actually create your own sub-factions now, rather than just "make a paint scheme, then pick which of the Big Boys you're most like".

[Claws and Effect]

Yeah, they definitely seem to be allowing you to actually create your own sub-factions now, rather than just "make a paint scheme, then pick which of the Big Boys you're most like".

And it's very welcome, as it is something the game has needed for decades now.

 

They went to great lengths to hammer it home that there are a thousand or so Marine Chapters and only fleshed out a handful.

 

On the surface that gives you plenty of room to make Your Dudes, but the reality was they were just one of the Big Four painted a different color.

 

Expanding that system to every faction is a no brainer. And it needs to be done the same way as the DIY Marine rules. Each canon subfaction has 2 traits, of which one can be chosen by DIYs and the other is unique to them.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's also infinitely better than the previous version:

 

 

"you're White Scar successors? You get their Tactic, so hope you like bikes."

"But... we're Mantis Warriors, we're ambush specialists, we don't use bikes?"
"You're White Scars successors, so you'll use bikes and like it, Emperor damn it!"

[Ishagu]

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

[Dark Shepherd]

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

Love it :)

The interesting thing was the variety of marine armies but the successor chapters seem to do best. I think a tiny part of the iron hand problem was it was so easy to paint a bare 3 colour minimum on them

[jaxom]

 

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

Love it

The interesting thing was the variety of marine armies but the successor chapters seem to do best. I think a tiny part of the iron hand problem was it was so easy to paint a bare 3 colour minimum on them

 

 

I think competition armies will usually see more use of customization systems because it lets a player pick the most appropriate benefit for what they're trying to accomplish or to eke out the most from a bonus (like Salamander successors with +3" range and drop pods or IF successors with 20+ Intercessors with autobolt rifles and Rapid Assault). 

[Claws and Effect]

 

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

Love it :)

The interesting thing was the variety of marine armies but the successor chapters seem to do best. I think a tiny part of the iron hand problem was it was so easy to paint a bare 3 colour minimum on them

If ease of painting was a factor you'd see more Raven Guard, as they are equally easy to paint to tournament minimum standards.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

Love it :)

The interesting thing was the variety of marine armies but the successor chapters seem to do best. I think a tiny part of the iron hand problem was it was so easy to paint a bare 3 colour minimum on them

If ease of painting was a factor you'd see more Raven Guard, as they are equally easy to paint to tournament minimum standards.

Oh I really think you will in the near future. The RG are crafty, and great at offence and playing the mission too.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ishagu

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

 

 

Following the SoCal open, perhaps GW jumped the shark with the Tau codex :-P

Love it

The interesting thing was the variety of marine armies but the successor chapters seem to do best. I think a tiny part of the iron hand problem was it was so easy to paint a bare 3 colour minimum on them

If ease of painting was a factor you'd see more Raven Guard, as they are equally easy to paint to tournament minimum standards.

Oh I really think you will in the neat future. The RG are crafty, and great at offence and playing the mission too.

 

I'm building sneaky bois this Christmas, can confirm they're super easy to paint to a good standard (not even tournament minimum, my standards). Simple basecoat of black, heavy drybrush of a grey. Apply Company colors if desired, add steel colors where applicable and a light grey for the chest Aquila, then wash over entire model. Highlight chest Aquila with a white or light grey color, apply eye lens effects as desired, apply power weapon, jump pack and OSL effects if desired and model is done.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Corax would be proud.

[Prot]

I wanted to let some time pass before chiming in with personal opinion. 

 

First off, what is the question? Are we questioning "Marines" period? Are we talking about one or more of the supplements? I think it's a big difference. Marines generally speaking, I'd say absolutely not over powered. 

 

Please remember as I write this that even though I've been an ultra player a long time, I play Chaos Space Marines a lot, and AdMech, and Custodes most often. 

 

At first I think my answer would have been different because I was doing a LOT better with my Ultra's. But then I realized two things: 1. My opponent's weren't used to me using so many options, and they are now learning to adapt. That's huge. 2. And this is a weird one... I was so used to having such a crappy army that severely struggled competitively (I never took Guilliman to a tournament, even in his hay day.) I simply was not used to having anything really... .work in my army! Seriously, I played almost pure Primaris all the time, and I was used to fighting tooth and nail to eek out the odd win against seriously competitive stuff.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I watched some of SoCal and I heard some complaining; "This isn't fun to play against". I heard one player say of marines. (I won't say the guy, but I know some of you know who I'm speaking of). 

 

Here's my piece of advice to anyone going to an ITC event. If you are going for 'fun', the be prepared for some seriously big losses that will put in the 'fun' bracket, where you will definitely enjoy yourself more. However, if you're going to an ITC event with any sense of really competing, take fun, and throw it in the toilet. You (as a person) can be fun, and of course 'fair', but your list is there to kick teeth in.

 

Marines can kick some teeth in, and some people are having a problem with it. 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Let me ask you guys this: 

 

Have you played against Tau drone armies? Ork blobs with fistfulls of smashaguns? How about Deldar Airshow? How about GSC coming out of nowhere and satchel bombing your tank(s) then disappearing?

 

How are any of those 'fun'? Who's having fun? The guy with all the jets flying in circles, roasting characters, and avoiding interacting with you? 

 

If  you are going with Marines to an event, and you want to win, you have to plan for exactly that kind of interaction, and gameplay style from your opponent's army. This is what it takes for any army to compete, not just Marines.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So if asked, would I say Marines are competitive now? Yes.

 

Are all Marines created equal? Nope.

 

Did they go too far? I don't know, but if anything sticks out right now it is definitely IH / IH successors. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s important to realize the guy who said playing against SM is not fun had 15 smashaguns and he was playing against his coach whom he pays.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said Prot. This is our day in the sun and it will come to pass like everything else.

[Dark Shepherd]

Too much too quote but am going off the pics of the IH Repulsors on buildings shenanigans. RG same but at least theyve more infantry :)

[Prot]

It’s important to realize the guy who said playing against SM is not fun had 15 smashaguns and he was playing against his coach whom he pays.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said Prot. This is our day in the sun and it will come to pass like everything else.

 

Yea, I agree... I wasn't wanting to call anyone out so I was being vague intentionally. But I felt like this guy's reaction is something commonly uttered by people who are playing some -seriously- nasty stuff. (Pot meet kettle.)

 

And you're right... we have no idea where Psychic Awakening is going. Fast forward 6 months and it's going to flip. 

 

Case and point I would say is..... Chaos Daemon Plaguebearer spam. These marine supplements may have utterly ended that era. Will I miss being swapped by 80 (nearly) unkillable plaguebearers? Nope. 

 

It's called the evolution of a game. Stay tuned... it'll change* again.

 

*with the caveat that some things seem to be staples at the top tables well after multiple changes.

[Ishagu]

I wonder why people got so salty about those Repulsors on top of Ruins? Dark Eldar and Eldar have been piling vehicles on top of buildings for years. Is it only a big deal because Astartes do it?

 

And I also feel that a lot of the complaining we've heard from opponents is partly due to the semi-hysteria that gripped the community and fueled the feeling of "unfair" games.

 

The Iron Hands supplement had a few rules that were overly powerful but it had been adjusted accordingly with the FAQ prior to the SoCal open. The only thing of real concern now is the poor wording on one of the Salamander stratagems that will likely be fixed in the FAQ so I don't think we should be worried.

 

I'll state right now that something like Tau drone spam, with the drones hidden out of LoS so that the appropriate weapons can't target them, is more obnoxious than practically anything in the Astartes book and has been left unchanged since the codex release.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Ishagu

[toaae]

=][=

 

Lets steer this away from the chatter about the respective gaming bodies thanks, guys. Keep it on track. 

 

Guys, this isn't the thread to air out your grievances about FLG and the ITC.

 

=][=

[Aothaine]

I'm just happy space marines play how they are represented in the books now. This is a change a lot of people have been requesting for years. I was really surprised to see so many people rabble rousing over them, especially IHs. As Prot mentioned people are now starting to adjust their lists to handle armies they used to just be able to laugh at if they ever saw them. This is awesome because no only is it going to help GW's flagship force and increase sales it will really draw in a lot of new players to see this huge space marines really doing what they should have been doing all along.

 

I would say to give it at least a year before opinions regarding this new 40k are to be respected. I remember when the first 8th codex released and everyone complained about Space Marines then too. Here we are two years later and prior to this update marines were pretty much the goto army if you wanted to get punished in competitive play. I am really looking forward to what GW is going to do with Chaos and the Xenos factions when they are updated. If Codex Space Marines are this good it is going to be really really awesome! Also, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Custodes! I think we are really in store for some great times! 

 

Just want to say that I love this new GW and I hope they keep this up. I never want to see the "We're just a model company" GW ever again.

[BitsHammer]

=][=

 

Lets steer this away from the chatter about the respective gaming bodies thanks, guys. Keep it on track. 

 

Guys, this isn't the thread to air out your grievances about FLG and the ITC.

 

=][=

I think discussing how they may be influencing the perception of how overpowered something is still fits into the discussion as it's a large public entity that's influencing the discussion, but fair enough.

[toaae]

 

I think discussing how they may be influencing the perception of how overpowered something is still fits into the discussion as it's a large public entity that's influencing the discussion, but fair enough.

 

Discussing the perception and any community entity's impact on that perception is certainly within the domain of this thread. But accusations of bias is off-topic, as it can't be proven and will just lead to discussions about that entity, not the topic at hand. We already had a thread closed in regards to discussing specifically if FLG is being fair to Space Marines.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I think discussing how they may be influencing the perception of how overpowered something is still fits into the discussion as it's a large public entity that's influencing the discussion, but fair enough.

 

Discussing the perception and any community entity's impact on that perception is certainly within the domain of this thread. But accusations of bias is off-topic, as it can't be proven and will just lead to discussions about that entity, not the topic at hand. We already had a thread closed in regards to discussing specifically if FLG is being fair to Space Marines.

Fair point I guess.

 

I have to say, even skipping past FLG, there was a lot of sensationalism around Marines pre-Iron Hands FAQ. Most of them have failed to talk about the FAQ as well as it doesn't drive as many clicks to talk about the good aspects of the game.

 

I feel like that's a common problem that's impacting more than just Space Marines right now: we have a lot of sensationalist hot takes on everything coming out in large waves, and they do little to address how the game changes to address the things they complain about and that leads to a perception that things are way better than they are. I'm hoping that things flatten out enough that by the time the spring FAQ comes out GW doesn't nerf Marines back into the ground.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well said Fulkes.

[mughi3]

I'm just happy space marines play how they are represented in the books now. This is a change a lot of people have been requesting for years.

Have you seen the 5th edition era movie marine rules?

IE if the TT rules reflected how marines are represented in novels. basic bolters are 36" Strength 6 assault 4 w/rending (meaning a basic bolter can potentially pen AV 14) and basic marines start out at 100 points each.

 

 

So I come back to this topic after some discussion in the age of darkness forums comparing HH to 8th edition. and reflecting on how GW first released 8th with the indexes in what appeared to be a streamlined format. I intend to do a bit of experimentation with my local game group.

 

play 8th edition without any command points, stratagems, or doctrines but still allow the character ability beacons and the chapter/sept/craftworld etc.. specific rules, IE imperial fists ignore cover bomuses etc...

 

I want to see how/if it speeds up gameplay and reduces the amount of book keeping/ability tracking that has taken over the game.

 

P.S. I am also hoping to see if this leads to a more thematic list building formula VS a purely performance based command point/stratagem spam style.

Edited November 14, 2019 by mughi3

[Panzer]

 

P.S. I am also hoping to see if this leads to a more thematic list building formula VS a purely performance based command point/stratagem spam style.

 

 

Unlikely, considering Stratagems and Doctrines are mostly thematic additions..