Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

codex creep competitive broken overpowered balanced

  • Please log in to reply
317 replies to this topic

#301
Bloody Legionnaire

Bloody Legionnaire

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,389 posts
  • Location:Bodt Training Grounds
  • Faction: World Eaters

I agree with what many of others in this thread have said.. It's probably too early to tell if GW "jumped the shark" and I definitely agree that this probably sets a bad precedent going forward. All this "marines are super good" talk is kind of a slap in the face because my primary and first 40k army are Space Wolves and they've been trash-tastic since 5th/6th edition. I'm really concerned that SWs, DAs, BAs, just aren't going to receive the same level of love, because that's been the trend GW has been on for a while when it comes to our non-codex compliant chapters. It's weird being slightly more optimistic about what GW could end up doing for the Chaos armies I play over my loyalist army. It's really funny reading all the different posts claiming how good primaris or "nu-marines" are compared to loyalist marines or csm.. Primaris don't mean crap for my SWs as it stands. 


Edited by Bloody Legionnaire, 19 November 2019 - 02:00 PM.

  • Zephaniah Adriyen likes this

#302
jaxom

jaxom

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 872 posts

I originally had this in a separate thread because it doesn't touch on stratagems (which seem to be a larger issue regarding sharp-jumping), but if you haven't already seen it and are interesting, here's the numbers for the change to eighth edition and then the introduction of combat doctrines:

 

http://www.bolterand...ng-chart-heavy/

 

It does support the "slap in the face" to all non-C:SM power armor armies.


BHoA_2014_Banner_Artificer.jpg  L_T_3_2017_Badge_01_Centurion.jpg  L_T_3_2017_Badge_05_Legate.jpg  L_T_3_2017_Medals.gifgallery_30308_9518_2534.png


#303
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
Hey all, just giving you a heads up, test #1 is done

2k game of nids VS salamanders in 8th- with no command points, no stratagems and no doctrines.

I just got home, it's after 5am here and I am going to get some sleep before I tackle this report.

I will leave you with this preview-it was brutal, it was NOT one sided and the margin of victory was razor thin

Until later-
"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#304
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
So to begin-
I thought i was going to be playing against iron hands, since this is the favored faction of the person i was supposed to have the game with. especially given all the hype and nerfing given to them since the release of thier supliment. however he decided to break out his tyranids instead(he nad one more unit of gaunts to add to this pic). he ran tyranofexs, swarm lord w/guard, fyrant, gaunts, warriors, gene stealers, broodlord, and venomthropes

As he was a bit negative about how his marines would fair without cp/strat combos, effectively declaring (and reminding me throughout the game) how disadvantaged he was. as i was playing salamanders (i have been playing them since 5th ed so this is not a fad thing) and had the benefit of the single dice per unit re-roll to hit and wound.

I proxied a few units to make up a single vanguard formation since CP was not an issue-tech marine on a bike w/beamer, jum capt w/storm shield thunder hammer, hell blasters, eliminators, inceptors, venerable dreadnoughts, storm hawk, and storm eagle ROC

Since this is an overview of playing streamlined i am just going to sum up the overall battle and then look at the game effects.
The first turn went to me, i spent most of it on the swarm lord, venomthropes, and turanofexes, he spent his shooting at the dreads and flyers while tying up the infantry with guants.

My inceptors eliminated the genestealers then i spent the rest of the time working on killing the big things. the swarmlord& broodlord made short work of the inceptors, capt got the brood lord and was smited by the swarmlord. the techmarine went down to the flyrant and he kept my infantry tied up so that eventhough they were making a run for one objective when the game ended with the dice roll at the bottom of 5 he still held 2 of the 3, had it gone one more turn i likely would have tied at minimum as i killed both his tyrants, and venomthropes at the bottom of 5 leaving him with 1 wounded tyranofex, 5 warriors in 2 units and a partial squad of guants to my 2 flyers (wounded but both still on full profile), 2 hellblasters, 2 venerable dreads.
So generally a good game without any one sided fights

Afterthoughts.
my opponent lamented alot about no CP even though he won through battlefield tactics. disparaging the salamander mastercrafted re-rolls. at the top of 3 when he failed his test to advance the swarmlord and then charge the inceptors via psyker sillyness he declared the game was "over" and he had already lost because he could not use a CP re-roll. but we played on to see what would happen. there were a few mistakes that probably cost me a bit-like forgetting to shoot with pistols in CC with the hellblasters/eliminators but overall the game went alot faster without concern for CP farming or special combos. allowing me to play what i wanted and not what i had to play to maximise strats.
I have a revamped list ready with a bit more close combat capability but i am not sure when i will get the next test game in since the genestealer cult play tester will not be in next week. but i will be back with a report when that happens.

The armies-

x36DelG.jpg


ohv3hQf.jpg

the table-

VHpJTA3.jpg

n1piEQW.jpg


The battle-

VgchcA9.jpg

CqK8GAn.jpg

nRMMxBg.jpg

6Q1Y0VA.jpg

ecE4fry.jpg

B2JlmzQ.jpg

C3XcBlI.jpg

End game picture-

meg96jB.jpg

Edited by mughi3, 01 December 2019 - 10:59 PM.

"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#305
Black Blow Fly

Black Blow Fly

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 12,145 posts
  • Location:Unto realms immortal...
  • Faction: TODESKOMPANIE
Meh even your opponent didn’t enjoy the game.
  • MegaVolt87 likes this
The world would be a better place if people stopped complaining about Primaris Space Marines.
=][=
my 40k blog:https://greenblowfly.../alan-seds.html - Terminus Est - Space Marines 247=][=
wc.jpg
Blood and Honor!
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue Mary Sue and Plot Armor are terms used by losers

#306
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
It was a test, and he came in into this battle with a pre-conceived notion that it doesn't work without all the CP/stratagem spam that has been introduced into the game (and he likes to debate everything not just in games). this is a move back to 8th when it first dropped and looked to be moving into a more streamlined direction.

He is one of those players who started in 6th ed and likes the power gaming (even though he admits some of the rules are pretty stupid), He often pokes fun at the fact that I like 5th edition better than 8th. So his "fun" level is hard to measure when the decision about gameplay is made before the test even happens.

His biggest problem seems to be that some armies in 8th like marines gain the benefits of character re-roll bubble effects and other factions like his nids don't have a similar mechanic.
"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#307
MegaVolt87

MegaVolt87

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,343 posts
  • Faction: Iron Warriors

Meh even your opponent didn’t enjoy the game.

 

Yeah I don't blame him, when at a minimum half the stratagems should be army/faction/ unit rules. Can't really axe stratagems until the relevant ones are rolled back in as special rules. 


  • infyrana likes this
gallery_154982_15362_23624.jpg

My Iron Warriors Project   Guns for the guns god!, Bullets for the Brass throne!


#308
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
I don't see how you can when you come into a test with a pre conceived opinion that turns out to not even be a factor. he complained because he could not powergame but still pulled off a victory. I've known other players who had the same attitude prior to 8th. they copied tournament winning lists and when they were not winning by turn 3 they would give up unless you coaxed them into continuing the game(that they then often times won).


It is at the core of what the game is-a strategy game of tabletop combat, not a game of deck building combos that ignore tabletop game rules.

removing core mechanics for one force VS another or removing the need to roll dice in a game that relies on dice rolling to create chance is bad game design especially when you are given literal books full of options to do just that.

In fact in the next test I think I will forgo the salamander chapter specific master crafted rules to test the point.

So far I am seeing the game as better without CP/stratagems as it is faster, less focused on farming and tends to move away from power gaming meta created by them.
  • Azekai and Putrid Choir like this
"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#309
sfPanzer

sfPanzer

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 19,350 posts
  • Location:Germany
  • Faction: Order of Baal, Dal'yth Sept

Playing without Stratagems this edition is just silly. That's like playing without the Psychic phase. It's a core concept of how armies get designed and lots of the flavour for factions got outsourced as Stratagems instead of special rules or additional wargear. Without Stratagems Primaris wouldn't even have Veterans (and Blood Angels Primaris no Deathcompany) at the moment.

 

If you think combining different Stratagems to gain an advantage is superior to combining different units to gain an advantage in form of having a stronger list then that's really just your personal opinion. There's nothing inherently worse about one or the other.

Also forgoing Stratagems shouldn't make games faster unless you don't know your rules and have to think about what to use for 5 minutes everytime and possibly look them up to. If anything using Stratagems efficiently should speed up games as they help you to get to the opponent, deal more damage, etc.

 

It seems you just don't want to play the same game as others. That's fine. Just don't try to sell it as the better way to play 8th edition, because at this point you aren't playing 8th edition anymore.


Edited by sfPanzer, 02 December 2019 - 07:43 AM.

  • andes, Fulkes, Lord Blackwood and 2 others like this

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg


#310
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
you are playing 8th as it was first released go back in this topic and look at the previous conversations the entire point of this test was to counter the bloat of stratagems, power gaming CP spam that forces people to take certain units because they HAVE TO, as a direct replacement for the formation bloat in 7th edition.

An example from previous pages
 

The game can almost feel like a TCG to a point, sometimes.

You move this squad here, fire at that unit there and then oh-noes! You've activated my trap card! And now I spend this many CPs so that this squad here does this, and this many CPs so that it hits you with that, and then as I wound you I spend another few CPs so that this thing happens and blah blah blah.

I once had a fight at 1000 points against a guard list with a double batallion that supported a line of artillery tanks, that could burn 8cp in one turn to shoot me off the board. It was insane. And had a double combo for orders with made him do about a dozen orders a turn.

And then I found the list is template. As in, you could find people discussing it the way people discuss putting together a M:tG card deck.

The whole layer of CP economy to the game is fun on paper... But it does make it all feel a bit TCG-y at times, and can seriously break the game. Same as it could happen with the formations on 7th ed. (Most of all towards the end, when it felt like GW just didn't give a censored.gif anymore, and were releasing formations that were just insane).


Edited by mughi3, 02 December 2019 - 11:51 AM.

  • infyrana, Azekai and Putrid Choir like this
"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#311
Servant of Dante

Servant of Dante

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,667 posts
  • Location:Ophelia VII
  • Faction: Order of the Valorous Heart
I’d much rather go back and play 7th edition than play 8th without stratagems. The game feels bland enough even with them a lot of the time to me :D

Like sfPanzer said, a lot of army flavor got shunted into stratagems this edition.

Edited by Servant of Dante, 02 December 2019 - 08:11 PM.


#312
Ciler

Ciler

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,195 posts
  • Faction: Black Templars
I for one appreciate the feedback on that experiment.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. Revelations 6:8
BT Album link, Thread on the BT subforum, Thread on the TS subforum, TS album link.

#313
Fulkes

Fulkes

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,247 posts
  • Location:Holy Terra
  • Faction: Slaanesh Daemons
Even at yhe start of 8th every army had access to some strats (the three in the core rulebook) so it's not like cutting them out of the game is a more pure experiance. If anything it pushes the game to benefit the army with the best core rules over their opponent.
  • Black Blow Fly likes this

 My company inform me that their new primaris brother just don't fit in the safety harnesses. And the Chaplain won't let us ride unless we buckle up.


#314
Tyriks

Tyriks

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,089 posts
  • Location:Ohio

My group has been playing without stratagems to help teach a few new players the basics, and it is dreadfully boring.  The game typically feels much more lopsided in favor of whoever has the biggest guns and a lot of units feel like they're missing something.  We have all been chomping at the bit to get stratagems back.  If they put more of those flavorful rules back onto the unit datasheets, it'd be a different story, but it really makes some armies just plain dull.


  • Fulkes and sfPanzer like this

#315
infyrana

infyrana

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,549 posts
  • Location:UK

It is at the core of what the game is-a strategy game of tabletop combat, not a game of deck building combos that ignore tabletop game rules.
 

 

I've only just come across this thread and haven't read it all yet, but your recent experiment and sentiment is kinda interesting.  I've been quite curious just how much dice rolling there is now with a fully functional cp heavy re-roll everything army list, how this compares to the game when I started in 3rd edition.  Watching battle report videos - the CP and re-rolling almost feels like a full swing combo deck in a magic card game.

 

It would be nice to see the armies being about the units, weaponry, composition and movement, and not who has the biggest auras or largest CP count.  Have you done a streamlined match with Oldmarines versus Numarines?


  • Putrid Choir likes this

#316
Ishagu

Ishagu

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 15,866 posts
  • Location:Britannia, Holy Terra
  • Faction: Ultramarines
Strats are just rules with a resource cost. To remove them is to lessen the game.
  • Fulkes likes this

-~Ishagu~-


#317
mughi3

mughi3

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,364 posts
  • Location:tacoma wa. USA
  • Faction: panzer brigade
Well when we get around to it the battle with the genestealer cults we will probably do a game of each, one with the full monty and one streamlined to compare the difference.

the hardest part for the test is dealing with the fact people have become accustomed to so many stratagems and CP farming. it took the new marine supplements (as this topic started) to see how far it has gone over the shark for people to notice. Also the reason why the hands got nerfed into oblivion within what 3 days of the official release?

There was a reason why formations became a problem in 7th and in 8th it isn't the fluff based stratagems you are all on about that are the problems like the salamanders "strength of the primarch" which is a throwback to 3rd edition where they were initiative 3 but added +1 strength to represent the high gravity their homeworld. it is the ones that do game breaking things like remove the element of chance. or give units a performance boost beyond what they should be able to do by normal rules.

The end result leads to armies being built to farm command points, as has become glaringly obvious from tourney reports, to power up the army in question.


Have you done a streamlined match with Oldmarines versus Numarines?

had not thought about that one actually

Edited by mughi3, 03 December 2019 - 12:27 AM.

  • infyrana and Putrid Choir like this
"life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men"

"Heresy begets retribution."
"Retribution begets reloading."

M.ilitary U.tility G.enetic H.igher I.ntelligence.

#318
Aothaine

Aothaine

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,667 posts
  • Location:Reno, NV
  • Faction: The Wolf Pack (Space Wolves)

 

Have you seen the 5th edition era movie marine rules?
IE if the TT rules reflected how marines are represented in novels. basic bolters are 36" Strength 6 assault 4 w/rending (meaning a basic bolter can potentially pen AV 14) and basic marines start out at 100 points each.

 

Yup. It was years and years ago though. I honestly like the primaris rules better. 


  • Fulkes likes this

gallery_26154_15777_6252.png
The Wolf Pack - Space Wolfs (Iron Wolves)

Flesh Tearers - 5th Company

The Argent Fists - Space Marines: Successor Chapter of the Imperial Fists

The Moirai - Chaos Knights: Sisters of Fate

Oblivion Hunters - Chaos Space Marines (Renegade White Scars)

Order of the Steel Rose - Sisters of Battle

4th Company - Dark Angels

The Roaring Lions - Ultima Founding Successor that I can use with any rule set

Iron Hands List Ideas

Short Stories: Brother Ashur, Kell's Last Battle, Awakening, Sagas of the Wolf Pack, Kommando






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: codex creep, competitive, broken, overpowered, balanced

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users