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Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

codex creep competitive broken overpowered balanced

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#326
Ciler

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What do you think makes it not a viable alternative?

I what's going around near me is any clue, the main issue people have with open and narrative is that they are "not fair" because the two armies do not have the exact same amount of arbitrarily decided points. But then again, I'm in an area with mostly competitive or semi-competitive players who'd rather win a dull game than lose a fun one.
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#327
Panzer

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What do you think makes it not a viable alternative?

I what's going around near me is any clue, the main issue people have with open and narrative is that they are "not fair" because the two armies do not have the exact same amount of arbitrarily decided points. But then again, I'm in an area with mostly competitive or semi-competitive players who'd rather win a dull game than lose a fun one.

 

 

Yeah but the things that make Narrative less balanced are the things that make it different from Matched Play. If you take those things away you are just playing Matched Play again. msn-wink.gif

It's not supposed to be completely balanced. To be "matched". It's supposed to have a focus on the narrative of a battle which requires a little bit more initiative from the two people playing against eachother and are often more onesided because that's how battles often go in narratives.


Edited by sfPanzer, 18 December 2019 - 03:26 PM.

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#328
Gederas

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What do you think makes it not a viable alternative?

I what's going around near me is any clue, the main issue people have with open and narrative is that they are "not fair" because the two armies do not have the exact same amount of arbitrarily decided points. But then again, I'm in an area with mostly competitive or semi-competitive players who'd rather win a dull game than lose a fun one.

Yeah but the things that make Narrative less balanced are the things that make it different from Matched Play. If you take those things away you are just playing Matched Play again. msn-wink.gif

It's not supposed to be completely balanced. To be "matched". It's supposed to have a focus on the narrative of a battle which requires a little bit more initiative from the two people playing against eachother and are often more onesided because that's how battles often go in narratives.

Counterpoint: There's also nothing stopping people from playing Narrative with Matched Play points.....
 


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#329
Panzer

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What do you think makes it not a viable alternative?

I what's going around near me is any clue, the main issue people have with open and narrative is that they are "not fair" because the two armies do not have the exact same amount of arbitrarily decided points. But then again, I'm in an area with mostly competitive or semi-competitive players who'd rather win a dull game than lose a fun one.

Yeah but the things that make Narrative less balanced are the things that make it different from Matched Play. If you take those things away you are just playing Matched Play again. msn-wink.gif

It's not supposed to be completely balanced. To be "matched". It's supposed to have a focus on the narrative of a battle which requires a little bit more initiative from the two people playing against eachother and are often more onesided because that's how battles often go in narratives.

Counterpoint: There's also nothing stopping people from playing Narrative with Matched Play points.....
 

 

 

Nobody said anything about not using points in Narrative Play.


Edited by sfPanzer, 18 December 2019 - 03:35 PM.

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#330
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Counterpoint: There's also nothing stopping people from playing Narrative with Matched Play points.....

Which still leaves the problem that one army has more "points" than the other, because that is literally (as panzer has repeated) the point and purpose of narrative games.
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#331
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Please stay on topic about the new Marine codex/supplements - the nature of PL and Narrative games is better suited to another topic for more proper discussion. Thanks!


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#332
nanosquid

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Have they jumped the shark with the Marine codex?

Yes.
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#333
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I don't think they've jumped the shark at all.

Yes, the new Marine Codex is really good. But...prior to the new Codex Marines were really, really bad. I don't recall seeing much in the way of Marines doing well competitively unless it was Ultras with Guilliman or a handful of Blood Angels with whatever else the player felt like bringing (coughKnightscough).

But what I've seen thus far with Psychic Awakening is giving me an idea of what GWs plan is. They gave the most generally popular faction that didn't perform that great a significant boost, and with Psychic Awakening they seem to be giving factions that were already pretty good a slight boost to bring them closer to in line with where Marines are now.

The question of whether or not they jumped the shark would have a different answer if they had just buffed Marines and stopped there. But that's not what they're doing. And given how fast the Psychic Awakening books are being released, they are addressing the faction strength discrepancy faster than at any point in the past.

The Marine Codex was really the only one that needed to be flat out replaced, since it was the first in the cycle to be released. You could make a case for Grey Knights and Necrons needing a significant update as well, but I suspect both of them will be getting some love in the PA cycle that might make a Codex replacement unnecessary.
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#334
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#335
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The problem I have with the marine codex is with the doctrines. Not with what they grant but that it is army wide. It is the same mistake they made with GMan, it effects the whole army. I think they should have tuned each individual unit. That way, if one thing is op then they can just fix that unit without altering how the rest play.
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#336
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I think the biggest problem I have with the new SM codex is that this has been in development for some time now. In the meantime, GW re-released the CSM codex with new rules that don't touch the C:SM ones. To make matters worse, GW had the chance to remedy this with Psychic Awakening and purposefully avoided doing so.

Without getting into how much I loathe Startegems and whatnot, I will say that I don't fault the C:SM rules as much as I loathe GW not doing anything to bring other forces in line with them. Especially other PA forces.
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#337
Ishagu

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The problem I have with the marine codex is with the doctrines. Not with what they grant but that it is army wide. It is the same mistake they made with GMan, it effects the whole army. I think they should have tuned each individual unit. That way, if one thing is op then they can just fix that unit without altering how the rest play.


But Doctrines aren't equal so we can't make a blanket statement about them being a problem.
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#338
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I don't think doctrines are OP, but they are very good. Lots of armies in 40k are very good. The CSM book is definitely a let down in comparison though, I'd be steamed if I was a chaos player.
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#339
Ishagu

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I don't think doctrines are OP, but they are very good. Lots of armies in 40k are very good. The CSM book is definitely a let down in comparison though, I'd be steamed if I was a chaos player.


However it must be noted that there are a lot of very powerful rules and combinations in the Psychic Awakening book.

Edited by Ishagu, 24 December 2019 - 12:40 PM.

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#340
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The PA books give strats, relics and warlord traits. Some got a create legion. That's it. The marine codex/supplements got all of those in spades and more. Second psychic disciplines. New updated army wide traits. Doctrines. Super doctrines. Those (minus psychic) are all army wide passives that usually benefit every unit that don't cost command points, the sacrifice of a different warlord trait or relic. PA is a bandaid that can't stop the bleeding. Yes it "jumped the shark" in my opinion.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 24 December 2019 - 12:52 PM.

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#341
Ishagu

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Lol that's not it. The stratagems and abilities are fantastic.

Are they as nice as army wide Doctrines? In some cases they are better.
The Salamanders super Doctrine for example? Is that something that you feel changes the face of 40k? It does not, but the stratagems and other abilities do.

Super Doctrines are not a blanked "top tier" button.

Edited by Ishagu, 24 December 2019 - 01:25 PM.

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#342
Putrid Choir

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Lol that's not it. The stratagems and abilities are fantastic.

Are they as nice as army wide Doctrines? In some cases they are better.


As a chaos player, are the new strats as nice or better than loyalist new worthwhile army-wide traits, doctrines, super doctrines, extra spells, and their new strats? No. No they are not.

Super Doctrines are not a blanked "top tier" button.


Iron hands begs to differ. Heavy ranged weapons do most of the heavy lifting in alot of armies (anti tank or high shot volume anti horde). Giving them a blanket -1ap, move and shoot no penalties and reroll 1's for free turn 1, no command point spent, no HQ character to protect. Just a blanket buff. What's chaos's closest answer? Deathguard? They have move and shoot heavies (only applies to infantry and helbrutes). None of the mobility. None of the damage bonus from reroll and AP. DR only on some of the units, none of the generic units, plus it's built into the units cost, not a free 6+ from a trait.

I highly doubt some new relics, warlord traits and a couple strats is going to close the gap.

Edited by Putrid Choir, 24 December 2019 - 02:22 PM.


#343
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Iron Hands are one chapter. Not the whole codex.

Don't compare everything against one particular offender. Are IH too good? Sure.

Edited by Ishagu, 24 December 2019 - 02:04 PM.

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#344
Putrid Choir

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The title of the thread is 'Have they "jumped the shark" with the new Marine dex(s) power?' not are super doctrine buffs automatically top teir. All I said was strats don't equal strats PLUS doctrines and super doctrines.

#345
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I like Combat Doctrines as they are, however other factions really need a similar treatment and it's really undeniable that CSM got screwed over by a minor Codex update while loyalists got a major Codex upgrade.


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#346
Ishagu

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The title of the thread is 'Have they "jumped the shark" with the new Marine dex(s) power?' not are super doctrine buffs automatically top teir. All I said was strats don't equal strats PLUS doctrines and super doctrines.


They may have jumped the shark with a Marine supplement.

The codex is perfectly fine.
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#347
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The problem I have with the marine codex is with the doctrines. Not with what they grant but that it is army wide. It is the same mistake they made with GMan, it effects the whole army. I think they should have tuned each individual unit. That way, if one thing is op then they can just fix that unit without altering how the rest play.

But Doctrines aren't equal so we can't make a blanket statement about them being a problem.
But they cant. Let's say unit x is op with the IF doctrine but not with the Ultra or IH. You cant alter that one unit for that one supplement without impacting the others.

Edited by Subtleknife, 24 December 2019 - 03:30 PM.


#348
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I think the main issue with the Marine codex is that its the 1st 9th edition codex. So far only space marines, blood angels, and sisters of battle gain a bonus for being Mono-fraction. I'm willing to bet that every army gains something for it in 9th as it was a major complaint for most of 8th. So I don't think any huge nerfs are necessary because the release schedule should address it.

 

That said I don't think they did a very good job of balancing the super doctrines against each other. I also think having some armies be in their super doctrine turn one was a regrettable decision. If it were up to me the all super doctrines would activate during the assault doctrine. I think it would lead to more balanced lists as players have to try and take advantage of each of the doctrines.

 

Another option would be for a temporary Errata that makes it so instead of always being in a combat doctrine you instead can use each one once for an entire battle round (the stratagem that lets you turn it back could activate the same one twice). 


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#349
Dark Shepherd

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Red Corsairs trait/bonus for including csm as your troops shouldve been more widespread
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