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Have they "jumped the shark" with the Marine Dex(s) power?

codex creep competitive broken overpowered balanced

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#26
Trevak Dal

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Can the iron Hands fall back and shoot? If not it would seem they would be ripe for hitting them with something like assault marines. You aren't there to kill them just be like that Flashgitz video about the Connor McGreggor Vs Floyd Mayweather (Mmmm, Hard work).

Chaos could do it with a butt ton of spawn (that was my solution to Wraithknights in 7th before they became the only non Apocalypse Gargantuan creature. Thanks Phil Kelly.)

Be like "well I can't kill you, but you can kill me, but killing me will only mean I assault you with another guy/guys you will spend turns slap fighting, not shooting your big, expensive forgeworld guns"

Alternatively, only play Killteam. No dreds in Killteam (...yet)
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#27
Claws and Effect

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Marine Codexes reset the codex cycle. Everything after this will be using the new marine codex as a baseline of abilities/types of armies they try to create.


This.

Prior to the new Codex release, vanilla Marines were among the weakest factions to play. That's because the vanilla Codex was the first one released and the others used it as the baseline.

This is a new Codex cycle and any subsequent Codices will use this one as the baseline.

Marines get to be very good to overpowered for a few months at most. When other factions start getting Codex updates it will even out.

#28
Panzer

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I somehow still doubt that other factions will get the same level of attention with half a dozen supplements.


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#29
Claws and Effect

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I somehow still doubt that other factions will get the same level of attention with half a dozen supplements.


Some might. I could see the Craftworlds, Ork Klans and Guard regiments getting supplements. Probably not much else, though.

#30
Ishagu

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I don't think GW is about to embark on some grand codex re-release Crusade.

Sisters are still not out, and psychic awakening may well take a year or longer to be completed if they really intend to cover every faction with thr campaign.

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#31
Slasher956

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Sisters should be done by now, if you think of shipping times back to the UK for onward distribution ready for a November release....

 

Psychic awakening as a set of campiagn books would be done along side any codex creation... and as the sisters & SM release dates show GW can do multiple 40k releases along side each other.

 

So yeah theres no reason why GW cant be planning on re-doing the codexs.... in fact depending on what Pheonix rising rules for Jain Zar are* they may be re doing the craftworlds dex soon than people think!

 

 

*nothing except my own guesses... Jain Zar becoming a Yanari warlord choice and dropped from the next craftworld ''dex


Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#32
Ishagu

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I think a lot of Sisters kits are probably done, but will they all be released this year?

I'm not sure the codex is ready. I imagine a mini dex or the use of the beta dex in CA. The Sisters release could take months, and we haven't seen any new units yet either.

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#33
Slasher956

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there is a 'limited edition' codex in the army box thats being release in November

 

and you've just mentioned the reasons why a number of us sisters players are not optimistic about this release... nothing new even hinted at!

 

my feeling is that army box in november to satisfy the 'sister released in '19, then the individual boxes starting to be released in Jan


Edited by Slasher956, 24 September 2019 - 01:35 PM.

Dyspraxic & Dyslexic  - So I might not write/explain what I think I have as clearly as intended to.... 

 

I'm confussed... what side of the fence am I on???

 

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#34
Ishagu

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Well they have to re-do all the old kits first. That's a LOT of units.

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#35
Grimdark_Garage

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I think there are certainly top tier lists in the Iron Hands codex that will be dug out by the meta chasers.

In general game terms yes, they will be decent but you can say that for any Eldar or Kinght army. They're just inheritly good! 



#36
Wulf Vengis

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Someone else mentioned that they thought we'd see updates to other Codecies across the next year or so that would restore a more balanced semblance to the meta.
I agree.

Someone else mentioned enjoying the marines time to shine while it lasted.
I agree. Because this has NOT happened before and it will surely end once the Eldar and T'au (and to a lesser degree Necron and Dark Eldar) are brought to equalization.

Also we must remember that the meta has not had adequate time to adjust yet. I'm fairly certain that at least some of the Codecies out there will begin to figure out counters as the clock moves forward until they're own Codex gets its update and becomes balanced.

Honestly however, i am one of those people happy to see the marine chapters finally lay the OP cheese-hammer down on all-comers for a little while (brief as it may be).
Let those who have ridden that OP autopilot water-slide since 3rd edition released (looking at you Eldar) have a taste of their own medicine. It may be a bitter pill swallow but it's only temporary. Just be a marine and suck it up, it'll pass in time and I'm sure once you've gotten your own updates you'll be riding high on the top of the meta just for owning a Codex again. Just as you're accustomed.

NOTE: I apologize for snarky attitude. I just don't feel it's very fair for EVERY faction to start rallying around "the marines are op" rhetoric. When was the last time marines played like they're described? When was the last time marines were top of anything without broken soup nonsense or allies manipulation? When was the last time the meta saw anything beyond the usual factions on their top lists?

Bottomline: Let the marines have their 5 minutes. You'll be out maneuvering and fusion gunning them into nothing soon enough.
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#37
Kaldoth

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I absolutely think the new SM dex is overpowered compared to other armies. If this is a new codex release cycle, then it's to be expected. The first dex in a new release cycle is always OP, so par for the course. My worry is how exactly GW are going to keep each army unique and fluffy as far as rules while maintaining balance.

The SM dex (and especially the new supplements) have thrown in a whole slew of special rules that more monofaction armies are going to be hard pressed to match. Necrons are my army of choice and frankly I feel like having a supplement dex for each dynasty is unrealistic and unnecessary. So the question becomes how do you balance literally every other army in the game that only needs one book against the huge amount of new baseline rules that came in the SM codex along with whatever Chapter supplements come on top of those? The only other army in the game I see getting the SM treatment is CSMs. So what's the plan for the rest of us? Matching that level of customization is going to require a complete rules overhaul for most armies, 3 or more subfaction specific stratagems compared to the 1 a piece we get right now, more special characters being introduced with model support, etc. Somehow I don't see that happening.

Additionally, I think the release order for all these supplements is going to hurt the game too. So far we've got six whole supplement books for SMs that have been released or announced without a single other faction in between. I can already tell you it's frustrating for me as a xenos player. I wish GW would release one or two Chapter supplements with a full codex for another army in between, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen, and that's not good when it comes to keeping a happy playerbase.

Edited by Kaldoth, 24 September 2019 - 02:11 PM.

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#38
Wulf Vengis

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@Kaldoth: I feel you, and totally understand the trepidation. The necrons have had some serious shifts in their overall play style over the years. But i think they'll be pretty safe once GW gets to instituting your reanimation protocols, general toughness of your standard units and the rapid mobility/power of Your vehicles and specialized units. Not too mention your gauss weaponry.

EDIT: I also can't disagree with you on your dislike of the current release schedule. However my guess is that GW figured they've got a good idea. May as well run with it and get all the marines on the same page before they flip the script and show us what other factions can do when their rules match their fluff.

Edited by Wulf Vengis, 24 September 2019 - 02:22 PM.

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#39
Lord Marshal

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I love that now that SM are top tier everyone seems to jump the gun and get worried about the meta yet Eldar has been top tier for all of the edition and access to -3 to hit flyers and no one was wondering if it was "too much" or if GW jumped the gun. Im going to enjoy being top tier, maybe I'll show those Tau some modicum of what it felt like to play my army in 6th/7th agains their double firing Riptides and BS2 Overwatch.

Not really. People get worried about every meta shift. Remember when the Kelermorph rules were shown?

If anything I've seen more people DEFENDING/downplaying things this time on account of the 'dexes being (loyalist) Space Marines and thus boding well for by far 40k's most played faction... and most people like it when their army is the powerful one.
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#40
Zephaniah Adriyen

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What I don't like is that Blood Angels don't get most of the new toys and that Word Bearers suck even with access to them.


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#41
Black Blow Fly

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I think it’s safe to say prior to the new releases SM were not competitive. Now we have a reversal and some are flipping their lids. A lot of factions don’t really need any help to be honest. It’s mostly a case of over reacting.
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#42
taikishi

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Well they have to re-do all the old kits first. That's a LOT of units.

 

Not really. Not counting the two SCs:

 

Battle Sisters, Dominions, Retributors and (atm) Celestians can all be built from the same kit.

Seraphim

Canoness

Mistress of Repentia

Repentia

Rhinos, Immolators, Repressors, and Exorcists can all be built from the same kit

Penitent Engine

DCA

Crusaders

Arco-flaggelants

Hospitaller

Dialogus

Preacher

 

That's thirteen kits. Seven of them are single-model kits. Two of those are vehicles, one of which already has a kit.



#43
Claws and Effect

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What I don't like is that Blood Angels don't get most of the new toys and that Word Bearers suck even with access to them.


My wife is right there with you. We've had several arguments revolving around her perception that my Raven Guard stole all her unique stuff wholesale. I disagree, but I also see her point.

From my experience so far, only having a couple games in with my supplement, the actual power level varies greatly between different Chapters.

Iron Hands are strong right out of the gate since the Doctrine they want to be in is active on the first turn.

Raven Guard, on the other hand, appear to be the easiest Chapter to counter. Their tricks kind of depend on your opponent not knowing what they can do. Once everyone is aware of the kind of shenanigans they can pull they won't be hard to shut down. It doesn't help that their Chapter Tactic is the only one that can be flat out taken away en masse by anything that ignores cover.

Just like any Codex release it has its strong combos and its meh ones.

I expect to see a lot of Ultramarines, Iron Hands, and Imperial Fists doing well in the future meta. Not as many Raven Guard or White Scars. Jury's still out on Salamanders but I expect they'll be pretty good.
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#44
Wulf Vengis

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Also to note, there will most likely be supplements for most of if not all other factions.

The Eldar have their Craftworld sub-factions.
The Dark Eldar have varying Cult sub-factions.
The Tyranids have hive-fleet sub-factions.
The Necrons will most likely receive at least one dynasty and/or similar method of sub-faction(s).
The Guard have regimental sub-factions.
The orks have got clan sub-factions.
T'au have castes and kroot/other mercenary sub-factions.
The sisters have different orders.
Demons have sub-factions based on the chaos gods.
The chaos marines have traitor legion traits and sub-factions.

Really the only factions i see that may have a reason to be worried are Custodes, Ad Mech and GSCs. This may just be that I'm not familiar enough them though.
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#45
Claws and Effect

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I expect with Tau the Farsight Enclaves will get their own supplement at bare minimum.
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#46
antique_nova

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GWS IMO have gone too far and their new rules have clearly shown us that their rules making decisions have been made by people who clearly don't understand the game. I mean seriously? Whose great idea was it to create a relic like the Ironstone and Ferrios for 110 pts?

 

However, the kneejerk reaction to the IH is extremely strong and after testing it like crazy for the past 3 weeks. I don't think Iron Hands got the best bits. I think Raven Guard got the best bits, but that's not what worries me, it is that apparently the head of some big gaming company, I forget which, are more worried about Imperial Fists and he knows what's coming, but will not leak anything and he isn't faking it either, because he's extremely well connected.

 

However, the whole diversifying the marines. That is the right direction. GWS have just gone overboard with this and in some cases have really neglected fleshing out certain chapters with more characters.

 

And to quote redmapa from earlier. I always thought that the stacking of negative hit modifiers was going way too far. I don't think any army should be able to stack more than 2 negative hit modifiers, but that's just my personal opinion. However my army doesn't really care about it, because they outright ignore it or do too much to overcome it anyway.


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#47
The Blood Raven

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Also to note, there will most likely be supplements for most of if not all other factions.

The Eldar have their Craftworld sub-factions.
The Dark Eldar have varying Cult sub-factions.
The Tyranids have hive-fleet sub-factions.
The Necrons will most likely receive at least one dynasty and/or similar method of sub-faction(s).
The Guard have regimental sub-factions.
The orks have got clan sub-factions.
T'au have castes and kroot/other mercenary sub-factions.
The sisters have different orders.
Demons have sub-factions based on the chaos gods.
The chaos marines have traitor legion traits and sub-factions.

Really the only factions i see that may have a reason to be worried are Custodes, Ad Mech and GSCs. This may just be that I'm not familiar enough them though.

 

I disagree about the Eldar and Tau needing additional supplements. The Eldar codex is Craftworlds. There's no real need to make any more distinction there. The Dark Eldar pretty much require one to combine the three 'subfactions' - warriors, wyches, and haemonculi to make a holistic list. The Tau are almost as uniform as Necrons - I don't see a need to change how each sept works to make them more unique. 

 

I'm not saying those codexes are hunky dory or without flaw, but I don't see the need to make them have 'subfactions' like marines or chaos space marines should have. 

 

Edit: I could see a Farsight enclaves supplement, but I don't see the need for one. 


Edited by The Blood Raven, 24 September 2019 - 04:05 PM.


#48
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I don't think GW is about to embark on some grand codex re-release Crusade.

Sisters are still not out, and psychic awakening may well take a year or longer to be completed if they really intend to cover every faction with thr campaign.


I could see them adding doctrine style bonuses in chapter approved. It was the route they took with allegiance rules in AoS.

#49
Vermintide

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This is just part of The Great Cycle.

 

If you think Ultramarines and Iron Hands look bad now, just wait until you see pure Craftworld lists get an extra -1 to hit on their fliers in the first round, and extra 6" to their movement in the second, and re-roll everything in the third, just to make sure. Of course, this will be widely be regarded as a return to the natural order- Until the third round of codexes come out, this time controversially upgrading all T'au battlesuits to BS2+, rerolling 1s.

 

Thus it will come to pass, that we will see a chain of codexes, each more powerful than the last; until a game of 40K involves you tuning up for a game, rolling off for first turn, and the loser simply immediately removing all of their models. Only then will we be able to claim we have achieved balance. We will have reached a state of transcendence where every army will be competitive in the ITC format, and there will be rejoicing in the streets.
 


Edited by Vermintide, 24 September 2019 - 04:28 PM.

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#50
Zephaniah Adriyen

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We will have reached a state of transcendence where every army will be competitive in the ITC format, and there will be rejoicing in the streets.

 

 

Dude, I don't even want to be competitive, I just want fun to play rules which reflect the fluff. Bring on the Thousand Sons sorcery bonuses, the Blood Angels wound bonuses, the Word Bearers summon bonuses. Just make them decent so I'm not literally always losing because everyone else's armies are better than mine because my dumb brain decided the bad armies were cool.


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