The Space Marine Home for me

[FlamingWalnut]

Hello everyone. It has been a while since I have even visited this website, let alone posted. I've been hardcore into AoS for a while, but with the recent Space Marine codex sparking my roommate's excitement and Psychic Awakening peaking my interest, I have been prodding my way back to 40k for a bit.

My Orks are looking to be my main army as I move to finally paint them and "finish" them (an army is never finished...) but I have a Space Marines force I've been wanting to finally get the grips on it. The question is HOW to go about getting them to a more "finished" state, both in models, lore, and variety.

So, long story short, these Space Marines started in 7th edition. I love the idea of a Caster/Knight hybrid, so Space Marine Librarians are some of my favorites models. I had an idea for a Librarian focused Space Marine chapter, kind of like a Loyalist Thousand Sons. I had plans for portals for Drop Pods and Librarian sergeant counts as, and a whole host of Librarians representing the many different Psychic lores.

Than 8th edition happened. I lost a lot of Psychic phases stuff, but gained Primaris. Space Marines felt RIGHT now. 1 wound Space Marines just seems wrong and their models now looked even more out of place (only a tiny bit taller than a Guardsmen?), but Primaris feel durable and good and like Marines should. Problem was, with just the Dark Imperium box and the first codex, they were BORING...

Fast forward to now. I know what I WANT, but I can't figure out the best way to get it. I love the loyalty to chapters so many people on here have, and I want to proudly say who my chapter is descended from. So, here is my criteria for Space Marines and I was looking for guidance as to what kind of Marines they should be. 

All Marines need at least 2 wounds. As such, I want as much potential variety as I can get, so non-Primaris models with 2+ wounds work as well.
I want heavy psychic focus. Relics, other buffs, variety of powers.
I want a Gene Seed lore that fits the chapter: Marines who are sages and shamans, who venerate knowledge and oppose Chaos in all its forms, who strike with a relentless assault of bolter rounds and psychic might to pound their enemies into dust. 
I want a use for my Portal Drop pod idea. Either conversion ideas for Old School Marines or other units that use Drop Pods.


Blood Angels 
Pros: Librarian Dreadnaughts, Sanguinary Guard, Mephiston, has a lot of psykers in lore

Cons: Ok Psychic list, but only 1 Psychic lore (do they get the Vanguard one...? Still less than Codex Space Marines...)


Dark Angels
Pros: Death Wing Knights, knightly themes

Cons: Same as Blood Angels

 

 

Space Wolves
Pros: The Saga system is cool, interesting psychic powers, potential for Thunderwolf conversion...somewhere?

Cons: Only 1 psychic lore


Ultramarines
Pros: Tigurious, Guilliman (not a Psyker, but a giant monster of a "Chapter Master" would be awesome)

Cons: Kinda bland overall? 


White Scars
Pros: (small) Focus on Psykers, have a lot of interesting mobility tactics

Cons: No idea how to do bikes using Primaris models (old marines look small and weedy) 


Imperial Fists
Pros: Defensive and Stalwart fits the overall idea

Cons: No real psyker focus or help (we haven't seen their supplement, but can't imagine much?), would get mugged by the Black Templars in the Feast of Blades


Salamanders
Pros: Humanitarian, Fire Magic sounds rad

Cons: ???


The other chapters just seem pretty middle of the road.

I know a lot of this depends on myself and other details of the army, but I wanted to put the thought out into the Warp and see what came back. What would YOU do to represent a Librarian heavy force? What gene seed/strats/model conversions would you try with this concept? 

Should I try a mix? An extra Supreme Command of another Chapter could get me more psychic variety... 

So many possibilities...

 

[Trevak Dal]

Grey Knights aren't in a good space and don't have Primaris stuff (yet), but they are pretty much Jedi Wizard Space Marines.

 

Now they don't have Real Smite like Ksons, and their powers are...not great but if you were so inclined to take them over paladins, they do have troop terminators.

 

Most of the units in the codex can deep strike, but don't get that drop pod turn one deep strike "because GW is gonna make them pay for their abilities but then punish them for it and not address it for years at a time, as is tradition"

 

And at the very least everybody has a stormbolter and force weapon.

 

Grey Knights were made purposefully to fighting against daemons and the warp.

 

Grey Knight terminators have two wounds, grey knight Paladins (elite terminators) got 3, and have a character apothecary that can heal them and bring them back. They can take a hammer (that isn't 40 points).

 

Mixing multiple chapters (soup), negates any Salamander or Ultramarines specific strat, you lose doctrines where you have guys who are better at different phases of the game. It can be done and is still strong but you are making yourself more middling like how Vanilla marines were (and those non compliant curs are) and would need the crutch-excuse me, "supplementary forces".

Edited September 27, 2019 by Trevak Dal

[Trevak Dal]

There isn't a manner yet to have say, Sargent librarians.

 

Vanilla marines are strong now, but gw will swing that pendulum back as Creep sets in.

 

It's always good policy (I've learned the hard way, much like the Deathwing and Ravenwing players before me) I had a Gundam Wing Tau army (Enclave army, crisis suits were troops, I have 30+ crisis suits) to not buy more than 3 of any given unit (tactical Marines, scouts, assault marines, whatever) and spend a little extra money at first to invest in magnetization.

 

Drop pods are all the rage...but I wouldn't buy more than three. Same with rhino/razorbacks.

 

If you invest in a unit that will say, get nerfed and then kicked while it's down (like crisis suits, Deathwing, or Ravenwing) then your going to have the feel badsies.

 

Oh, I can take all the crisis teams...in big ass hard to move units or in Not Matchplay, which nobody around me plays. I'm going to give GW until the end of the year and then I think I'll either trash them or sell them.

[Kinstryfe]

As you said, a lot of what you want can be waved away by good fluff for your Chapter, so pretty much any primogenitor Chapter can be justified. The one sort of problem I see is that Drop Pods largely transport 1 wound models, so your portal idea may be tough to pull off without adding some firstborn to your army. On conversion ideas, you may be able to play up the sergeants are minor psykers angle by modeling some of their weaponry as psychic effects. Flaming or spell effect weapons as power weapons, shooting a gout of flame from their hand as a combi-flamer, clear resin shield effect as a storm shield, etc. It could visually convey that these are cool psychic effects without needing rules that don't currently exist. Salamanders successors with fire and rock manipulation effects could look especially cool.

[gilt_imp]

If you were thinking of using a Space Marine Chapter that puts more focus on psychic powers, consider the Blood Ravens. If you can get access to July’s White Dwarf magazine have a read, or for a rundown check out:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Space_Marines(8E)#Blood_Ravens

 

Blood Ravens chapter tactics are ‘Relentless Stalkers’. Models can’t be wounded on unmodified rolls of 1 and 2, even if they would normally be on a 2+. Plus Librarians re-roll 1’s for DtW and casting psychic powers. They also have a 1CP Stratagem ‘Chief Librarian’.

 

Also, this may help with how Librarians access which Discipline to choose from:

 

• The Librarius discipline: Is for Librarians & Primaris Librarians. (each Librarian type knows Smite & 2 Librarius psychic powers).
• The Obscuration discipline: Is for Phobos Librarians. (Phobos Librarians know Smite & 2 Obscuration psychic powers).
• Chapter Specific Disciplines, e.g: White Scars ‘Stormspeaking’ discipline or Raven Guard ‘Umbramancy’ discipline etc. Librarians in chapter specific detachments can choose to know all their psychic powers from that chapter’s discipline instead of the Librarius or Obscuration disciplines. E.g. a Phobos Librarian in a Raven Guard detachment could choose to take both their psychic powers from the Umbramancy discipline.

 

 

[Mandragola]

Agree that any primogenitor could work – though you could also consider using the successor chapter rules to create your own.

 

Ultramarines would give you Tigurius, who is pretty good. You could make your own “counts as” ultramarines if you wanted. Their rules aren’t boring, though I personally find their fluff a bit “Mary Sue” for my tastes.

 

Now that the sneaky librarian exists anyone can have up to six primaris librarians in an army, which really ought to be enough. It’s too many really! You could get up to a lot of mischief with a ravenguard army, with things like the power that lets a librarian attack with strength equal to his LD. Plus chuck out a ton of mortal wounds. They’ve also got tools to bring a standard primaris librarian close to the enemy to cast null zone. You could pair that with a couple of sneaky guys to use the conclave strat and really ruin someone’s day. Just add assault centurions and remove whatever formerly-invulnerable unit you like from the game.

[Brother Tyler]

Just to be clear on language (since I've seen it multiple times in this discussion), the "Primogenitors" are the 2nd Founding Successors of the Ultramarines Legion. A "Progenitor" is the parent of a Chapter, usually used in reference to the Legions or the Chapters named for the Legions, but occasionally used for later founding Chapters that sire their own Successors (e.g., the Astral Claws were the progenitor of the Tiger Claws and two other Chapters).

 

Getting back to the topic, from a lore perspective, there are a few loyalist Chapters that are known to have unusually large/influential numbers of Librarians. These include the Blood Angels, Blood Ravens, Exorcists, and Relictors. Of those, the Blood Ravens probably come closest to what you've discussed, though none really embody what you describe.

 

As an alternative to focusing your lore around a whole Chapter, you could just focus around your actual army (or detachment/strike force/whatever nomenclature you want to use). In concept, this is akin to shifting from justifying a bike-heavy Chapter to simply justifying a bike-heavy force. Narrowing your focus down still allows you to apply the same concepts, but with fewer difficulties. Realistically, shifting in this way would allow you to use any Chapter you desire (except the Black Templars, of course ;) ). All you have to do is find the set of rules that works best for your concept and then apply a color scheme, whether an official one or something DIY.

[Exilyth]

Forge Worlds Dreadnought Droppods are chapter independent and could fit the theme of the army by summoning something big & nasty onto the table (e.g. ven/ironclad dread). They do have all the advantages and disadvantages of forge world units though.

[Claws and Effect]

Should I try a mix? An extra Supreme Command of another Chapter could get me more psychic variety...

 

 

A few months ago I'd have said this was a great idea.

 

Then the new Codex was released and now it's a bad idea.

 

They introduced Combat Doctrines in it, which, in a flaming nutshell, add an additional -1 AP to any weapons that are affected by the currently active Doctrine. Devastator buffs Heavy and Grenade weapons, Tactical buffs Rapid Fire and Assault weapons, Assault buffs Pistol and Melee weapons.

 

You keep that if you add units from other Chapters.

 

But...

 

The Supplements being released for each 1st Founding Chapter that used to be crammed into the vanilla Codex are adding a bonus that is only usable if all of your units are drawn from the same Chapter. And some of them are really freaking good.

 

And each Chapter is getting their own Psychic discipline (the 4 that have already been released did anyway). That effectively gives you 3 disciplines to choose from (Librarius, Obscuration, and the Chapter specific one).

 

Codex Marines are in a really good place right now, and it is likely to be a while before the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves catch back up.

 

That said, the Blood Angels are still really solid.

 

Iron Hands got stupid good, and the Raven Guard are now any character's worst nightmare.

[FlamingWalnut]

Thank you all for replying! I realize my question was rather muddled and hard to answer outside of opinion, but I thank you all anyways. I'll respond in general order.

@Trevak Dal Grey Knights have everything I would love, but are way too focused on Daemons and are far too different from Primaris Marines. Grey Knights being played against non-Chaos forces just feels bad. Power isn't the problem here, though them being so underpowered is a good deal depressing. Just not the fit I was looking for.

I am well aware on GW's policy of shifting model importance. I'll keep it in mind, but I don't build for power in the first place. I am just out to find a combination that works. 

@Kinstryfe Yeah, fluff is the real king here and that ball is all in my court. I've brainstormed a few conversion ideas for "Not-Space Marines" to represent the non-Primaris models. Luckily there are also a few options that fit both my wound requirement and Drop Pod legality.

@gilt_imp  It's funny, I accidentally made an alternative Blood Ravens with my first color scheme, just Purple instead of Red, purely by accident. With the new codex, their Chapter Trait can be recreated with (again, accidentally) the Seekers of Knowledge and Stalwart Successor Traits...which are the two I was aiming to use. So, I basically AM the Blood Ravens. The only issue I have is, that Strategem is unique (oddly...other people have Chief Librarians...) but I am uncertain if it means I can still have access to a Supplement's Psychic Discipline. If I have to choose, I'll take the new supplements over the 1 Strategem...

@Mandragola  Tigurious IS pretty spicy. But that means I have to be PURE Ultramarines, which means giving up that wonderful Seekers of Knowledge successor trait... Overall, the reason I find the Ultramarines boring is that while their fall back and shoot shenanigans is cool and looks solid, they don't give anything else. They aren't off the table, but just not sure it feels right. This is why I made this thread. lol

I do like the Raven Guard hop around deal. That and the Obscuration discipline makes me want to add more PHobos stuff...none of which really excite me? I do like the Smash Captain look alike with Spectral Blade and such...

@Brother Tyler  Haha, thanks for the correction. Despite being a professional writer, I do still muck up a lot of things like that. Blood Angels being so Psychically gifted was a big draw for me. Combined with Mephiston for my own Chief Librarian counts as, Librarian Dreadnoughts! (why does no one else have these) and Sanguinary Guard for 2-wound assault options. Super tempting! They just have a major assault focus and lack that extra juicy discipline to abuse. (At least they get Obscuration). 

Breaking the concept down is nice, but the idea ends up being the same. Whether this is a strike force or not, the lore for my chapter will undoubtably remain Thousand Sons-esque. They have their heretical moments, but their loyalty and the more fun Imperium combinations kinda wins out.

@Exilyth  Yep, will be podding in Dreadnoughts, so I at least have that for me. The Drop Pod deal may not be so bad...

@Claws and Effect  Here we have the crux of the issue. My original idea was just splicing in some Supreme Command for a cabal of different Librarians. I even had a cool lore deal where they would send Librarians to learn and fight alongside other Chapters to learn their psychic ways (as well as help to intercept any rumors of heresy with some good Battle Brother Diplomacy). It would be cool! But then they had to have a REALLLLLY good ability tied to being Codex Pure... 

Honestly, I may say screw it and just go with my Soup idea. I can always reverse it when I need to knuckle down and take serious lists. Because Combat Doctrines also messes with my love of Assassins, Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle (Ooooh, those models) and I actually LIKE Soup. It makes narrative games fun! The Imperium is so large and diverse. 


Through this all I may have answered the question as best I can on the internet, at least in this form. So let me simplify it:


Which Space Marine Codex runs the best Psyker Heavy Army? Which benefits (Relics, Strategems, Special Disciplines, Special Characters) give the best benefit? 

As well, what cool Librarian based combos exist for the Loyalists? 

[Malakithe]

Thank you all for replying! I realize my question was rather muddled and hard to answer outside of opinion, but I thank you all anyways. I'll respond in general order.

 

@Trevak Dal Grey Knights have everything I would love, but are way too focused on Daemons and are far too different from Primaris Marines. Grey Knights being played against non-Chaos forces just feels bad. Power isn't the problem here, though them being so underpowered is a good deal depressing. Just not the fit I was looking for.

 

I am well aware on GW's policy of shifting model importance. I'll keep it in mind, but I don't build for power in the first place. I am just out to find a combination that works. 

 

@Kinstryfe Yeah, fluff is the real king here and that ball is all in my court. I've brainstormed a few conversion ideas for "Not-Space Marines" to represent the non-Primaris models. Luckily there are also a few options that fit both my wound requirement and Drop Pod legality.

 

@gilt_imp  It's funny, I accidentally made an alternative Blood Ravens with my first color scheme, just Purple instead of Red, purely by accident. With the new codex, their Chapter Trait can be recreated with (again, accidentally) the Seekers of Knowledge and Stalwart Successor Traits...which are the two I was aiming to use. So, I basically AM the Blood Ravens. The only issue I have is, that Strategem is unique (oddly...other people have Chief Librarians...) but I am uncertain if it means I can still have access to a Supplement's Psychic Discipline. If I have to choose, I'll take the new supplements over the 1 Strategem...

 

@Mandragola  Tigurious IS pretty spicy. But that means I have to be PURE Ultramarines, which means giving up that wonderful Seekers of Knowledge successor trait... Overall, the reason I find the Ultramarines boring is that while their fall back and shoot shenanigans is cool and looks solid, they don't give anything else. They aren't off the table, but just not sure it feels right. This is why I made this thread. lol

 

I do like the Raven Guard hop around deal. That and the Obscuration discipline makes me want to add more PHobos stuff...none of which really excite me? I do like the Smash Captain look alike with Spectral Blade and such...

 

@Brother Tyler  Haha, thanks for the correction. Despite being a professional writer, I do still muck up a lot of things like that. Blood Angels being so Psychically gifted was a big draw for me. Combined with Mephiston for my own Chief Librarian counts as, Librarian Dreadnoughts! (why does no one else have these) and Sanguinary Guard for 2-wound assault options. Super tempting! They just have a major assault focus and lack that extra juicy discipline to abuse. (At least they get Obscuration). 

 

Breaking the concept down is nice, but the idea ends up being the same. Whether this is a strike force or not, the lore for my chapter will undoubtably remain Thousand Sons-esque. They have their heretical moments, but their loyalty and the more fun Imperium combinations kinda wins out.

 

@Exilyth  Yep, will be podding in Dreadnoughts, so I at least have that for me. The Drop Pod deal may not be so bad...

 

@Claws and Effect  Here we have the crux of the issue. My original idea was just splicing in some Supreme Command for a cabal of different Librarians. I even had a cool lore deal where they would send Librarians to learn and fight alongside other Chapters to learn their psychic ways (as well as help to intercept any rumors of heresy with some good Battle Brother Diplomacy). It would be cool! But then they had to have a REALLLLLY good ability tied to being Codex Pure... 

 

Honestly, I may say screw it and just go with my Soup idea. I can always reverse it when I need to knuckle down and take serious lists. Because Combat Doctrines also messes with my love of Assassins, Inquisitors, Sisters of Battle (Ooooh, those models) and I actually LIKE Soup. It makes narrative games fun! The Imperium is so large and diverse. 

 

 

Through this all I may have answered the question as best I can on the internet, at least in this form. So let me simplify it:

 

 

Which Space Marine Codex runs the best Psyker Heavy Army? Which benefits (Relics, Strategems, Special Disciplines, Special Characters) give the best benefit? 

 

As well, what cool Librarian based combos exist for the Loyalists? 

 

I dont think there is one overall Chapter that has a leg up on the others. Except for UM due to Tiggy being one of, if not, the best space wizard in the game. Each have their own Disciplines but depending on the type of Librarian can only tap into one Discipline at a time. Fluff wise Grey Knights are the supreme jedi masters of the warp for Space Marines...but rules wise  . 

 

I think what you want translates to Thousands Sons who can pull from 3 different Disciplines with almost no restrictions 

Edited September 29, 2019 by Malakithe

[The Unseen]

I would either go with Thousand Sons who have the rules you want, psyker sergeants and all, or use your choice of successor with the psychic tactic of rerolling 1s on psychic tests+whatever you like.

 

Tsons don't have 2 wound troops, but All Is Dust is a potent durability bonus, rubricae have a 2+ save vs 1 damage weapons.

And rubric terminators have 2 wounds and an effective 1+ vs 1 damage stuff.

 

And while they won't get doctrines, your bolters will hit hard, at native -2 ap.