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Chapter Approved 2019 - Speculation


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#126
Lexington

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The reason is that most lore/theme driven people do not have a solid gaming group around them.


Curious about your logic on this, as I’ve found it to be quite the opposite.
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#127
Trevak Dal

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:cuss me no let’s please never go back to JSJ.

Sure it makes your unit stronger, but that sits up there with Destroyer weapons/Stomps and Mortal Wounds as the most painfully anti-fun mechanic. Winning a game by making it unfun isn’t helping.


I too am pining for the days of templates. They solved so many issues that 8th Ed has and the ‘problems’ with them for the most part existed only in the Internet echo chamber, not between two reasonable opponents. If we’re not going back to them, I really hope for a fix to template/blast weapons, they need help.

I don't know man, how long would it take to shoot through a full flamestorm aggressor squad, or two?

Staring down that barrel would cause horde players to spread to maximum coherency, and that takes time.

I'm in negotiations with a friend of mine about a hybridized version of 7th (he won't have anything of 8th "on principle")

Some things with 8th are great and I love them (bs/ws on the units profile I prefer Killteams Cover causing a to-hit modifier than armor save booster of base 8th, how everything has wounds and everything can wound everything, the removal of instant death and the simplified wounding system, how unwieldy weapons just subtract from your to hit, how vehicles have diminishing profiles the more hurt they are, how everything can split fire, move and shoot heavy weapons at a minor penalty and how marines feel in general.

I like the idea of the moral phase in 8th (it just rarely comes up) and I love how you can shoot and assault with just about anything, and the movement stat (though imo underutilized with marines being super soldiers moving at the same rate of Guardsman and Tau firewarriors)

Edited by Trevak Dal, 11 October 2019 - 07:38 AM.

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#128
kombatwombat

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I don't know man, how long would it take to shoot through a full flamestorm aggressor squad, or two?

Staring down that barrel would cause horde players to spread to maximum coherency, and that takes time.

I'm in negotiations with a friend of mine about a hybridized version of 7th (he won't have anything of 8th "on principle")

Some things with 8th are great and I love them (bs/ws on the units profile I prefer Killteams Cover causing a to-hit modifier than armor save booster of base 8th, how everything has wounds and everything can wound everything, the removal of instant death and the simplified wounding system, how unwieldy weapons just subtract from your to hit, how vehicles have diminishing profiles the more hurt they are, how everything can split fire, move and shoot heavy weapons at a minor penalty and how marines feel in general.

I like the idea of the moral phase in 8th (it just rarely comes up) and I love how you can shoot and assault with just about anything, and the movement stat (though imo underutilized with marines being super soldiers moving at the same rate of Guardsman and Tau firewarriors)


Shooting 6 flamer Aggressors with templates would take about 60% of the time it takes to shoot with a 10-man flamer squad in 30k. Which isn’t very long.

I really do think there is a great game to be made from combining 8th Ed and 7th/30k. A combination would really benefit from taking advantage of the opening up of the statlines - let Land Raiders have T16 and Marines T5, Lascannons shoot at Str12 and Lasguns at Str3. GW started well by removing the 10 cap for stats but haven’t capitalised on it.

#129
Ishagu

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It would take longer actually, because they would be firing twice, and have two flamers each.

Also the positioning of enemy units would be different and slow the phases down significantly.

You're free to play whatever hybrid rules you want, but changes you suggest WILL slow the game down. Time is a major drawback of 40k.
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-~Ishagu~-


#130
Captain Idaho

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Templates slow the game down but endless re-rolls and mountains of dice don't?

8th has absurdly slow elements. I agree with Ishagu in this.

Changes WILL slow the game down if they're an addition, however that doesn't mean changes don't need to come or have to be an addition instead of replacement to something.

Ultimately, what's better; a slightly more time consuming process or a particular playstyle dominating the game to an extent it's no longer fun or challenging?
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#131
kombatwombat

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It would take longer actually, because they would be firing twice, and have two flamers each.

Also the positioning of enemy units would be different and slow the phases down significantly.

You're free to play whatever hybrid rules you want, but changes you suggest WILL slow the game down. Time is a major drawback of 40k.


A model for ing two flamer templates takes the same amount of time as firing one - each model under the template simply generates two hits instead of one. Double shooting depends on whether the process is shoot-remove casualties-shoot or shoot-shoot-remove casualties; the latter takes the same time as firing 6 templates for the unit, while the former takes the time of firing 12.

I won’t dispute that templates take longer, but you keep saying they take ‘substantially longer’. How much longer is ‘substantially’? 3 seconds per game? Fourteen hours per game? Until the sun rises in the west and sets in the east? I’ve had a quick crack at a reasonable estimate of time in my previous post and come to the conclusion that the added time is minor. Simply repeating ‘it’ll take way longer’ doesn’t exactly constitute much of a rebuttal to that conclusion.

#132
CaptainMarsh

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The debate is kind of pointless since the topic is Chapter Approved 2019 speculation and there is a no chance in Hell that Chapter Approved 2019 will include templates.


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Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.

Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#133
Dark Shepherd

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The debate is kind of pointless since the topic is Chapter Approved 2019 speculation and there is a no chance in Hell that Chapter Approved 2019 will include templates.


2 more months of flemplates will be fun

#134
Captain Idaho

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The debate is kind of pointless since the topic is Chapter Approved 2019 speculation and there is a no chance in Hell that Chapter Approved 2019 will include templates.


Of course it won't include template rules but GW does review the community and addresses issues in the future. Look at Codex Space Marines. Look at the Warhammer Community talks about and memes. The squat clock etc.

GW will be aware that the community is discussing the problem with castles and gun lines.

#135
Dark Shepherd

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The debate is kind of pointless since the topic is Chapter Approved 2019 speculation and there is a no chance in Hell that Chapter Approved 2019 will include templates.

Of course it won't include template rules but GW does review the community and addresses issues in the future. Look at Codex Space Marines. Look at the Warhammer Community talks about and memes. The squat clock etc.

GW will be aware that the community is discussing the problem with castles and gun lines.
They aint reading this thread though. Templates would be an edition change

The real question is will they define ETB in Chapter Approved :)

And what build your own vehicle will we get after Land Raiders and Ork Wagons

Edited by Dark Shepherd, 11 October 2019 - 11:20 AM.


#136
Slasher956

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The real question is will they define ETB in Chapter Approved smile.png

 

 

no need.... they already have on their website

 

Designed to be as easy as possible to assemble for new hobbyists while being detailed enough for the hardiest veteran to appreciate, this is a set of 3 Easy To Build <snip> Push-fit, with no glue required, these are incredibly straightforward to put together, and come on pre-coloured <snip> plastic sprues.

 

checked a couple of ETB entries and they say pretty much the same thing.....

 

 

Build your own vehicle ....hrm.... how about guard Leeman Russ vairents :P



#137
kombatwombat

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The real question is will they define ETB in Chapter Approved :)


Ok, you made me snort out loud with laughter with that one. Well done.

#138
Dark Shepherd

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The real question is will they define ETB in Chapter Approved :)

Ok, you made me snort out loud with laughter with that one. Well done.

Will quit now while Im ahead

#139
Captain Idaho

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1) How do you know whether GW are reading this thread or not

2) It is a conversation that other forum users will potentially read and carry on elsewhere. It spreads and thus reaches GW anyway.

#140
Dark Shepherd

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Irony is templates seem to have caused a lot more damage

#141
Black Blow Fly

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I thought this thread was for the discussion of CA2019. Reecius said there’s going to be a lot of point changes.
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The world would be a better place if people stopped complaining about Primaris Space Marines.
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Blood and Honor!
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue Mary Sue and Plot Armor are terms used by losers

#142
Cpt_Reaper

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I'd like a revision of the Custom Vehicles. Start with a base vehicle, then offer upgrades. You could offer 2-3 vehicles for most races.

And offer points values. They can be an extra 50% of a standard vehicle and with the Relic rule.

#143
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

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What do we think could be in CA19?

Disappointment.

 

And maybe a nugget of gold to make it shine a bit.


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#144
Slave to Darkness

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Regarding the template issue, the last thing I will say on the matter is if one player claims its 6 hit and the other says its 5, or they argue about scatter angle make the 'highest dice roll wins debate' an official ruling. Yea it kinda sucks when your convinced your right and its 'not fair' but hey, war sucks and :cuss happens, next time the result might swing in your favour. Sure its random but nothing is predictable in warfare and it IS a WARgame... 

 

But if we have to stick with the current mess then at least bump up the number of hits or come up with a way for missed hits to clip other units, roll a 6+ for misses and they potentially hit another enemy unit within 2 inches (to hit roll required) you will literally be rolling a couple of dice so its not exactly gonna slow the game down.


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Unbearable, isn't it? The suffering of strangers, the agony of friends. There is a secret song at the centre of the world, and its sound is like razors through flesh.

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#145
sfPanzer

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Yea it kinda sucks when your convinced your right and its 'not fair' but hey, war sucks and censored.gif happens, next time the result might swing in your favour.

 

That's the exact reason why it's not there anymore. If a rule or mechanic is prone to make players feel bad then it's a bad rule/mechanic and needs to go. GW also slowly realises that single 1d6 rolls for shots or damage suck too but at least it's nothing you can argue about with your opponent so it feels less bad.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#146
kombatwombat

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If a rule or mechanic is prone to make players feel bad then it's a bad rule/mechanic and needs to go.


I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. If it were, we would have long since seen the death of mechanics such as:

- drawing line of sight from the tip of your aerial over a mountain to clip the tip of a guy’s heroically raised sword
- Mortal Wounds
- casualties carrying over into models in a unit that are out of line of sight so that bullets are turning 90deg corners mid-flight
- vehicles being wrecked outright killing models inside on a roll of a 1, irrespective of whether that model is a Cultist or a Custodes Terminator Captain

All of those things are very prone to making players feel bad - often moreso than templates, because templates you can at least manage with the philosophy ‘maybe don’t be an asshat’. The ones I’ve listed above are just rules, there’s not much scope to lessen their awfulness by being a decent human being. Templates at least have advantages - and plenty thereof - whereas all of those things listed (and removing templates) are only for the sake of expediency. Personally, I’d prefer to play a slightly longer fun game, than a bad game that is at least quick.

#147
Slave to Darkness

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If a rule or mechanic is prone to make players feel bad then it's a bad rule/mechanic and needs to go. 

So the current shooting phase, I know plenty of people who are sick of getting units wiped before they even do anything, then theres people who run assault based armys that hardly ever get to use the assault rules. 


Unbearable, isn't it? The suffering of strangers, the agony of friends. There is a secret song at the centre of the world, and its sound is like razors through flesh.

gallery_29004_9303_22505.png

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''Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!!'' - Dennis the Peasant, England. 932 A.D.


 


#148
sfPanzer

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If a rule or mechanic is prone to make players feel bad then it's a bad rule/mechanic and needs to go.


I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. If it were, we would have long since seen the death of mechanics such as:

- drawing line of sight from the tip of your aerial over a mountain to clip the tip of a guy’s heroically raised sword
- Mortal Wounds
- casualties carrying over into models in a unit that are out of line of sight so that bullets are turning 90deg corners mid-flight
- vehicles being wrecked outright killing models inside on a roll of a 1, irrespective of whether that model is a Cultist or a Custodes Terminator Captain

All of those things are very prone to making players feel bad - often moreso than templates, because templates you can at least manage with the philosophy ‘maybe don’t be an asshat’. The ones I’ve listed above are just rules, there’s not much scope to lessen their awfulness by being a decent human being. Templates at least have advantages - and plenty thereof - whereas all of those things listed (and removing templates) are only for the sake of expediency. Personally, I’d prefer to play a slightly longer fun game, than a bad game that is at least quick.

 

 

Just because GW isn't consequent doesn't mean it's not true. 


 

 

If a rule or mechanic is prone to make players feel bad then it's a bad rule/mechanic and needs to go. 

So the current shooting phase, I know plenty of people who are sick of getting units wiped before they even do anything, then theres people who run assault based armys that hardly ever get to use the assault rules. 

 

 

I'm one of the people who'd like to see the ranged damage output nerfed quite drastically in 40k, so yeah. ^^


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#149
Slave to Darkness

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Give it another ten years and we will get templates back and they will scrap the M stat again. :lol:


Unbearable, isn't it? The suffering of strangers, the agony of friends. There is a secret song at the centre of the world, and its sound is like razors through flesh.

gallery_29004_9303_22505.png

Blog - Gates of Helvete

''Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!!'' - Dennis the Peasant, England. 932 A.D.


 


#150
sfPanzer

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Probably. :D


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

gallery_62972_10568_7658.jpgbFk9acX.pnggallery_62972_14467_40478.pnggallery_62972_14467_3819.jpggallery_62972_10568_4118.jpg





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