Competitive Play without Wulfen?

[Watcher]

   I wanted to start a discussion to see whether anyone has designed or played many lists WITHOUT Wulfen. I used to really love the fact that Space Wolves finally had Wulfen models, but with the gross treatment the non-Codex Chapters have gotten, Wulfen have risen to the fore as our best unit.

 I have become quite biased against using them and I would like to see more lists enter the meta not using them. I play with a group of fellows who all adhere to ITC formats and love high level competitive lists (a place of struggle for Space Wolves). I understand this may be entirely far-fetched, but I would like to hear feedback or even just open discussion on the pros/cons of doing such or even your own experiences running or not running Wulfen in competitive play.

 

Best regards,

Edited October 2, 2019 by Watcher

[PeteySödes]

Thing is, wulfen are arguably our best and most efficient unit. If you're shooting for top tier competitive play you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage which is distinctly not competitive.

 

Best case scenario ive seen is counter meta where you take something obnoxious like a Falchion or something and hope your matchups work out.

Edited October 2, 2019 by PeteySödes

[Watcher]

Thing is, wulfen are arguably our best and most efficient unit. If you're shooting for top tier competitive play you're already putting yourself at a disadvantage which is distinctly not competitive.

 

Best case scenario ive seen is counter meta where you take something obnoxious like a Falchion or something and hope your matchups work out.

   I've had the same discussion with my playgroup in regards to putting myself at a disadvantage. Its become quite a longstanding joke. 

 

However, if you were not to run Wulfen, what would you run to keep up in competition? Or are we limited to Wulfen being our only chance of being competitive?

(I understand Wulfen are our best unit and using them in high tier lists is essentially competitive play, but Im curious as to what else could or would be viable. I don't like the idea that my army is only "competitive" or good because of a single unit we have access to)

Edited October 2, 2019 by Watcher

[Iain_Stormeyes]

Wulfen are really our only choice given the current rules and our choices.  Most tournaments use 2-4 pieces of terrain that are multi-level ruins and only infantry can go up a level in ruins.  Our TWC and Dreads can't assault the second floor of ruins, but Wulfen and Wolf Guard can.  And Wulfen are so much better than Wolf Guard with Jump Pack/Hammer/Storm Shield.  This means that you have to win in Shooting Phase super hard, which ignores our chapter trait and heroic interventions.

 

Your best bet to do that is spam Flyers and Aggressors.  Aggressors aren't great compared to Wulfen, but they have the same number of attack (with a Power Fist not Thunderhammer), more wounds, higher toughness, BUT no Invulnerable Save.  And even with this, you are subject to Line of Sight and bad rolls.

[PeteySödes]

I guess I would come to terms that given the nature of the game currently there are times that some armies don't work at the "competitive" level.

 

I would suggest making your own personal goals in order to have a good time. This past year I've been going to competitive events to compete in the ITC hobby track but it's not something im going to be repeating. There are so many other ways to play this game that are more satisfying currently.

 

If you play wolves because you love them then set personal goals and make your own good time because you wont be hitting the top tables even with wulfen. If you play to be competitive, then currently this likely isn't the right faction for you atm and its going to be frustrating. I dont want to play kid gloves 40k but fighting 11 eldar flyers (happened at Adepticon this year) really sucks. My opponent admitted he didnt even like the army but thought it was his best chance at winning. Thats playing for the wrong reason IMO. For me I just love my wolves and want to play people equally as passionate about their armies. 

 

I don't mean to be doom and gloom but if i can save you some frustration by getting you to audit WHY you're playing then hopefully you'll enjoy your hobby more.

[Watcher]

Wulfen are really our only choice given the current rules and our choices.  Most tournaments use 2-4 pieces of terrain that are multi-level ruins and only infantry can go up a level in ruins.  Our TWC and Dreads can't assault the second floor of ruins, but Wulfen and Wolf Guard can.  And Wulfen are so much better than Wolf Guard with Jump Pack/Hammer/Storm Shield.  This means that you have to win in Shooting Phase super hard, which ignores our chapter trait and heroic interventions.

 

Your best bet to do that is spam Flyers and Aggressors.  Aggressors aren't great compared to Wulfen, but they have the same number of attack (with a Power Fist not Thunderhammer), more wounds, higher toughness, BUT no Invulnerable Save.  And even with this, you are subject to Line of Sight and bad rolls.

  I agree. I have been doing the alternative of running Aggressors with Gravis Captain over any TWC, not enough for it to be spam, but enough to step up difficulty a bit. 

I have also definitely experienced the frustration of having more focus in the shooting phase which defeats a majority of our goodies. Its been so long since I've popped off a Warlord trait successfully. 

Do you think the higher point of toughness and more compensates for the invulnerable save and less mobility?

[Iain_Stormeyes]

 

  I agree. I have been doing the alternative of running Aggressors with Gravis Captain over any TWC, not enough for it to be spam, but enough to step up difficulty a bit. 

I have also definitely experienced the frustration of having more focus in the shooting phase which defeats a majority of our goodies. Its been so long since I've popped off a Warlord trait successfully. 

Do you think the higher point of toughness and more compensates for the invulnerable save and less mobility?

 

Not even close.  because they are T5 3W your opponent will send anti-tank at the aggressors unless you are packing enough actual tank threats.

[Watcher]

I guess I would come to terms that given the nature of the game currently there are times that some armies don't work at the "competitive" level.

 

I would suggest making your own personal goals in order to have a good time. This past year I've been going to competitive events to compete in the ITC hobby track but it's not something im going to be repeating. There are so many other ways to play this game that are more satisfying currently.

 

If you play wolves because you love them then set personal goals and make your own good time because you wont be hitting the top tables even with wulfen. If you play to be competitive, then currently this likely isn't the right faction for you atm and its going to be frustrating. I dont want to play kid gloves 40k but fighting 11 eldar flyers (happened at Adepticon this year) really sucks. My opponent admitted he didnt even like the army but thought it was his best chance at winning. Thats playing for the wrong reason IMO. For me I just love my wolves and want to play people equally as passionate about their armies. 

 

I don't mean to be doom and gloom but if i can save you some frustration by getting you to audit WHY you're playing then hopefully you'll enjoy your hobby more.

 I agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason I started playing Space Wolves way back in 4/5th edition was due to high fluff content have and I loved crafting these mighty heroes and watching them demolish things on the tabletop. They had a huge "Your Dudes" appeal.  Its unfortunate to be in a place where they can't function well against competitive lists and it definitely has been a source of frustration for me in my playgroup. 

 

Greatly appreciate the input, lads. 

 

 

  I agree. I have been doing the alternative of running Aggressors with Gravis Captain over any TWC, not enough for it to be spam, but enough to step up difficulty a bit. 

I have also definitely experienced the frustration of having more focus in the shooting phase which defeats a majority of our goodies. Its been so long since I've popped off a Warlord trait successfully. 

Do you think the higher point of toughness and more compensates for the invulnerable save and less mobility?

 

Not even close.  because they are T5 3W your opponent will send anti-tank at the aggressors unless you are packing enough actual tank threats.

 

Thats a fair point, unfortunate, but it will happen.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Wulfen and Smash Jarl's are our most (and I would say only) competitive units. Primaris are great however they favor shooting over melee, which puts shooting focused SM's (UM, RG, IF, DA) in a great position. Primaris also have good vehicles/walker/dreads putting IH in a favorable position. Which is good news for the SM community because it means primaris put us on the right direction to being competitive.

 

However primaris lack any real melee, Aggressors are too slow to keep up from what I see and experience. So if you are a SM that focuses on melee or fast moving (SW, BA, BT, WS), you're in bad position. Now this can be remedied if we got phobos with power weapons and SS, however it looks like phobos is focused on range weapons. Going by rumors the Gravis armor will be melee focused, but that mean slow moving units that you are always striving to get into melee.

 

I know people undersell them, but Reivers with combat knife I have been loving to thin hordes. 4 attacks, S4, hitting on 2 on the charge, followed next turn by S4 AP1 pistols and then more melee 3 attacks, S4 hitting on 3's. I run reivers in groups of 6 and that is 24 attacks hitting on 2's wounding IG on 3's and Orks on 4's. I can massacre both parties in a single turn. Throw a HQ with them and you can reroll those sound rolls and really bolster them.

 

It is not our time of glory, I know that pains you to hear as you all want to charge into combat gleefully. We must be patient and wait for the Emperors light to shine on us once again.

[Watcher]

Wulfen and Smash Jarl's are our most (and I would say only) competitive units. Primaris are great however they favor shooting over melee, which puts shooting focused SM's (UM, RG, IF, DA) in a great position. Primaris also have good vehicles/walker/dreads putting IH in a favorable position. Which is good news for the SM community because it means primaris put us on the right direction to being competitive.

 

However primaris lack any real melee, Aggressors are too slow to keep up from what I see and experience. So if you are a SM that focuses on melee or fast moving (SW, BA, BT, WS), you're in bad position. Now this can be remedied if we got phobos with power weapons and SS, however it looks like phobos is focused on range weapons. Going by rumors the Gravis armor will be melee focused, but that mean slow moving units that you are always striving to get into melee.

 

I know people undersell them, but Reivers with combat knife I have been loving to thin hordes. 4 attacks, S4, hitting on 2 on the charge, followed next turn by S4 AP1 pistols and then more melee 3 attacks, S4 hitting on 3's. I run reivers in groups of 6 and that is 24 attacks hitting on 2's wounding IG on 3's and Orks on 4's. I can massacre both parties in a single turn. Throw a HQ with them and you can reroll those sound rolls and really bolster them.

 

It is not our time of glory, I know that pains you to hear as you all want to charge into combat gleefully. We must be patient and wait for the Emperors light to shine on us once again.

All very true, but if I could highlight the crux of what you mentioned; REIVERS. With the new Shock Assault ability and their Leadership debuff being attributed to multiple squads rather then one, they have definitley stepped into the limelight again. I've done three squads of five Reivers and its debilitating against GEQ MEQ and if youre lucky, TEQ's. I've been very impressed with their performance! 

[UniWolf]

So yes wolf guard terminators with TH/SS are unpopular/expensive but I have been playing around with them a little. I played a game against knights tonight and a unit of 7 deep stuck and took down a Warden in one turn. I rolled well and the oppo didn’t make any saves but they were very effective as the next turn the oppo focused on them resulting in my long fangs surviving long enough to cripple another knight

[Watcher]

So yes wolf guard terminators with TH/SS are unpopular/expensive but I have been playing around with them a little. I played a game against knights tonight and a unit of 7 deep stuck and took down a Warden in one turn. I rolled well and the oppo didn’t make any saves but they were very effective as the next turn the oppo focused on them resulting in my long fangs surviving long enough to cripple another knight

Classic, bringing legends to their knees. 

 

It's sad they aren't as popular as combi-weapon/SS loadouts, but by the Emperor do they make up for their cost in points if deployed/used properly.

[TiguriusX]

You can make wolf guard deadly with Arjac and other combos

The problem is they are expensive and slow once deployed

The best combo to get them into combat relies on Wulfen (free rerollable charges)

[Watcher]

You can make wolf guard deadly with Arjac and other combos

 

The problem is they are expensive and slow once deployed

 

The best combo to get them into combat relies on Wulfen (free rerollable charges)

 Makes me a little sad to realize how much they are our only real redeeming unit at this point in time.

 

May Russ smile fortune upon us

[TSkouboe]

Remember that Wulfen are two things: An effective melee unit and an aura provider.

 

I would prefer if that was split into two units, but it's not.

Instead, I try to pair my Wulfen with my other units to make them worthwhile. Not perfect, but there is some variance in trying to combine units - Thunderwolves become pretty good, and I imagine Aggressors don't mind having Wulfen around.

 

Wulfen and Space Wolves HQ's feel like the melee equivalent of the regular Space Marine shooty fortress. However, a melee army can't stay together within 6", so it's a lot less effective in practice.

[TiguriusX]

I play in a competitive ITC environment

 

I am currently running a character dread army with bjorn and 3 venerable chaplains

 

IMO the best defense is a rule saying you can't even shoot me

 

 

However...if you want hope I can give you my analysis of our codex and my plan B army

 

What makes us unique

-easy access to storm shields

-6" heroic intervention

 

I see our special role as CQB (close quarters battle)

 

If a board has buildings/ruins etc. then we can take and hold against most other codex armies

 

This means to win ITC style games you actually need to focus on objectives rather than trying to table your opponent

 

I actually like our terminators because SB/SS is a cheap but very effective combo.  You can take remote objectives from people and then just sit there

 

Be annoying and refuse to yield.  Use terrain and storm shields.  Use HQs and get the most out of heroic interventions

 

That can all be done without wulfen

[Watcher]

I play in a competitive ITC environment

 

I am currently running a character dread army with bjorn and 3 venerable chaplains

 

IMO the best defense is a rule saying you can't even shoot me

 

 

However...if you want hope I can give you my analysis of our codex and my plan B army

 

What makes us unique

-easy access to storm shields

-6" heroic intervention

 

I see our special role as CQB (close quarters battle)

 

If a board has buildings/ruins etc. then we can take and hold against most other codex armies

 

This means to win ITC style games you actually need to focus on objectives rather than trying to table your opponent

 

I actually like our terminators because SB/SS is a cheap but very effective combo.  You can take remote objectives from people and then just sit there

 

Be annoying and refuse to yield.  Use terrain and storm shields.  Use HQs and get the most out of heroic interventions

 

That can all be done without wulfen

 Yes! Bjorn is a must include in all my army lists! He always continues to give me hope in a battle, ESPECIALLY when he manhandles a Titan. In my wallets interests, were your Chaplain dreads' conversions? (Also... there are no Chaplains on Fenris  ).

  I have definitely had good fortune with SS/SB WG in TDA, but it has slipped my mind to use them as objective holders. The toughest part of 8th Ed. for me was learning that I could no longer wipe my opponent and effectively win, ITC or GW format. My playgroup is your classic "Bobby G bubblewrap" crew (and with the new SM: Codex, its ruder than it used to be) and Im determined to win at all costs without Wulfen. I understand its a handicap, but hey, one for the underdogs.

I'll reformat some lists and see if I can pull some shenanigans. 

[Watcher]

Remember that Wulfen are two things: An effective melee unit and an aura provider.

 

I would prefer if that was split into two units, but it's not.

Instead, I try to pair my Wulfen with my other units to make them worthwhile. Not perfect, but there is some variance in trying to combine units - Thunderwolves become pretty good, and I imagine Aggressors don't mind having Wulfen around.

 

Wulfen and Space Wolves HQ's feel like the melee equivalent of the regular Space Marine shooty fortress. However, a melee army can't stay together within 6", so it's a lot less effective in practice.

The more i hear about the more I see their benefits. However, you're right about the range. 

I'm very determined to see a competitive possibility without them, but they are an overwhelmingly beneficial unit.

[TiguriusX]

Yes! Bjorn is a must include in all my army lists! He always continues to give me hope in a battle, ESPECIALLY when he manhandles a Titan. In my wallets interests, were your Chaplain dreads' conversions? (Also... there are no Chaplains on Fenris ).

Yes my "chaplains" are conversions. The actual model is no longer sold

I used blood angel furiosos for that wing engraving

That is the actual model

[Watcher]

Yes! Bjorn is a must include in all my army lists! He always continues to give me hope in a battle, ESPECIALLY when he manhandles a Titan. In my wallets interests, were your Chaplain dreads' conversions? (Also... there are no Chaplains on Fenris ).

Yes my "chaplains" are conversions. The actual model is no longer sold

I used blood angel furiosos for that wing engraving

That is the actual model

I figured due to how much the price has inflated since FW discontinued them. Thanks for sharing! Good ideas to have.

Are the AMP looking things above the casket..... propaganda speakers?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Watcher

[lonewolf81]

The best units I used so far are the smash lord, smash battle leader, long fangs in a pod with 4 or 5 plasmacannons/leader plasma gun, 5 terminators 5 combiplasma, 3 shields 2 power fists and stormfang gunship. I don't often use wulfen cause they are too expensive and die really fast.. I prefer plasma termies who also pack some melee punch

[greysquigg]

My last few games have been wulfen getting shot out of their stormwolf or failing their charge when they outflank. Meta is lots of shooting and standing in your deployment zone. Most opponents can see the wulfen coming a mile off. Also with the resurgence of marine based armies auspex scan will just strait up counters them when outflanking. 

 

They have an allergy to losing initiative if you deploy them. 

 

While they are certainly our strongest unit on paper, most of my opponents know that if they kill the wulfen they've basically won.

[Watcher]

The best units I used so far are the smash lord, smash battle leader, long fangs in a pod with 4 or 5 plasmacannons/leader plasma gun, 5 terminators 5 combiplasma, 3 shields 2 power fists and stormfang gunship. I don't often use wulfen cause they are too expensive and die really fast.. I prefer plasma termies who also pack some melee punch

I do a similar loadout. I run commonly run a mixed pack of combi-melta and combi plas termies. They tend to do quite well for themselves. I don't use plasmacannons however, I've found them to be unreliable in comparison to lascannons or going anti-infantry with heavy bolters. 

 

What do you use them for as a focus?

[Watcher]

My last few games have been wulfen getting shot out of their stormwolf or failing their charge when they outflank. Meta is lots of shooting and standing in your deployment zone. Most opponents can see the wulfen coming a mile off. Also with the resurgence of marine based armies auspex scan will just strait up counters them when outflanking. 

 

They have an allergy to losing initiative if you deploy them. 

 

While they are certainly our strongest unit on paper, most of my opponents know that if they kill the wulfen they've basically won.

Very true. I think a majority of experienced (and in some cases) players recognize that if we build lists centered around Wulfen, losing them can destroy the chesion of the list and leave you very open to an easy defeat. It one of the reasons I brought up this topic It could be said as a low tier army, we need to come up with better and more cohesive alternatives to Wulfen. 

[Iain_Stormeyes]

 

My last few games have been wulfen getting shot out of their stormwolf or failing their charge when they outflank. Meta is lots of shooting and standing in your deployment zone. Most opponents can see the wulfen coming a mile off. Also with the resurgence of marine based armies auspex scan will just strait up counters them when outflanking. 

 

They have an allergy to losing initiative if you deploy them. 

 

While they are certainly our strongest unit on paper, most of my opponents know that if they kill the wulfen they've basically won.

Very true. I think a majority of experienced (and in some cases) players recognize that if we build lists centered around Wulfen, losing them can destroy the chesion of the list and leave you very open to an easy defeat. It one of the reasons I brought up this topic It could be said as a low tier army, we need to come up with better and more cohesive alternatives to Wulfen. 

 

And so I present to you: Triple Gunships! One Stormfang, two Stormwolf's, and 2 units of Wulfen.  Expensive? Sure.  But hits hard, transports our melee threat, moderately hard to kill (gets harder if you get T1 and get some spells off with a Rune Priest to pop Cloaked by the Storm), and is psychologically damaging.  

 

Each ship is 14W T7 3+ and -1 to Hit in Supersonic.  Add the cover spell and stratagem for 2+ and -2 to Hit.  Helfrost/Bolters/Lascannons give you options for shooting.  The Speed of the ships mean you can put them way back out of range of most things, but get them in range during your movement phase.