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Let's talk about GW's recent wording with successors


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#1
Boyadventurer

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I haven't really seen any discussion on this, but GW seems to be cracking down now on the "they're your dudes, paint them however you want" mentality with the following:

 

New codex, pg 177, Inheritors of the Primarch, Designer's Notes

If, in the background of our publications, your Chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter, you must select the chapter trait of that First Founding Chapter.

 

This was reinforced further in the FAQ stating that Emperor's Spears have you use UM CT in this case.

 

How does the community feel about this? Would you enforce this in games? Especially with all the tongue-in-cheek talk now about the blue Iron Hands, this seems important to talk about.

 

I for one started my primaris army as Raptors in part because I know my mind wanders a lot and I like to try new stuff all the time, so who better than the Raptors to use IF Tactics one game, then RG in another, then WS in the next. I mean, they're all about using the right (lower case T) tactics in a battle. But now I technically can't (and even with the ruling on the IF infiltrator exploding 6s, I still wanted to run that list damnit!). Another successor like Blood Ravens can do it no problem. This feels like a weirdly arbitrary decision of where fluff dictates the rules in a way I don't think we've really had before.

If you use a successor with a known FF chapter, how have you been handling it? Did you even notice? Sure I could just call them <Green Bird Marines> and go hog wild, but then what if I want to use Issodon, who has <Raptors>? How are the successors restricted, while people are just painting Ferrios blue to match the rest of their, now, <Iron Hands> army?

It's been frustrating me a lot and I just want to see what other people think about it.


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#2
Lord_Caerolion

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Actually, if you read the rest of the Designers Commentary, that's solely in regards to Inheritors of the Primarch. You can still choose to use other Successor Tactics, it's just that if you're playing Emperors Spears, who are successors of the Ultramarines, they can't be Inheritors of Dorn.

 

EDIT: Play Raptors, give them whatever you want. It's just that if they're actually Raptors, they can't use the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic. You could still pick Bolter Fusillades and any other Successor Tactic, to get close, though.


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 04 October 2019 - 02:46 AM.

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#3
SkimaskMohawk

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Just don't use issodon and choose a different chapter keyword, that's what people have been doing for years.

There's no real restriction; either you care about the fluff and stick with the raptors (who's raven guard warlord traits, stratagems and use of surgical strikes work perfectly for), or you don't and take whichever FF chapter you want to.

And at the end of the day, Raptors are one of the better chapters to have chosen. You get very thematic supporting rules from the raven guard supplement, one of the very few chapters to not have to pay CP for the chapter master aura, and one that can be built for range or shooting fairly well thanks to its mix of successor tactics, stratagems and issodon aura.

So ya, anyone who's playing raptors is a raven guard successor by definition to me (and the rules), because it's a 100% user choice in list building to include issodon. If not, then call them whatever and use whichever FF supplement as the rules allow.

Edited by SkimaskMohawk, 04 October 2019 - 02:52 AM.

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#4
Boyadventurer

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That's correct, I am speaking specifically about using inheritors. It feels weird to enforce this all of a sudden, and by saying "if we've said something about this in the lore, then you have to do it this way".


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#5
Lord_Caerolion

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Raptors ARE Raven Guard successors. At least this edition we can actually create our own tactics, whereas previously it actually was "nope, they're Raven Guard successors, so they're sneaky. I don't care if your successors are actually crazy ax-wielding maniacs, they're using Corax geneseed, so they're sneaky". It's far more open and creative now.

I mean, if you really really wanted to, there's nothing stopping you playing your Raptors using the Tau rules, to represent "they're less fighty because they're more shooty, and they have cool tech".

 

Using Inheritors of the Primarch is intended to be "these Successors fight exactly like their founding Chapter", just like Fearsome Aspect is to represent them being scary, fluffwise. If you want them to fight differently, you do have that option. Don't pick Inheritors. Otherwise, we may as well complain why Ultramarines have to use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics.


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 04 October 2019 - 03:47 AM.

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#6
Boyadventurer

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But that's the trick, there's nothing out there saying "your blue and gold guys with the U on the shoulder have to be played as Ultramarines". It's weird that there is one now specifically for *some* successors.


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#7
Lord_Caerolion

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Really? There's rules out there saying that your army, yours specifically, are Raptors only? Because there sure aren't any saying "your olive-green guys with a white raptor head are Raptors".

 

EDIT: And again, they're outright not saying what you think they're saying. IF you want to use their Character, then your Keyword has to be Raptors, then IF you use Inheritors you have to use Raven Guard. It's the same way that if you use Guilliman, your Keyword has to be Ultramarines, who have to use their Chapter Tactic. If you use Feirros, you have to be Iron Hands. Are your Iron Hands black? Up to you. They could be blue if you want. 

Your Imperial Fists, if using the Imperial Fist Keyword, have to use their Chapter Tactic. Your Crimson Fists, if you're using their Keyword, have to use the Crimson Fists tactic, again only if they use Inheritors. Nothing whatsoever forces you to do so.

And again, this isn't some horrible new thing. You used to be forced to take Inheritors, essentially. Before this Codex, there were no Successor Tactics, only "you're off Imperial Fists geneseed? Then you use their Tactic". This isn't something they're just now cracking down on, it's something that they've lightened up on.


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 04 October 2019 - 04:11 AM.

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#8
Boyadventurer

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There's rules saying "if your chapter is a known successor..." that I included above. If I roll up with them in full Raptors livery and am going to use the IF CT, we're going to have to do a little wink-wink "these aren't really raptors" thing to skirt the, now, rule. I could roll up in full Ultramarine livery and use the IF CT and there's no rule that needs to be skirted. Roll up with random homebrew with no daddy, no problem either. 


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#9
Lord_Caerolion

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So your argument is that the Raptors are a better-known, more widely recognised Chapter than the Ultramarines? Is there a rule stating what the Raptors look like? Because if we're just going off the name, you'd be hard-pressed to argue that the rules don't state that the Ultramarines use Ultramarines Chapter Tactics. The rules do state that an Ultramarines unit, Ultramarines in this format meaning the name, not the Keyword, uses the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic. So yes, there is exactly a rule stating that an army in Ultramarines livery needs to use the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic. It's literally in the rule called Chapter Tactics, page 174.

 

And again, there's no "wink wink" needed, just don't use Inheritors! You have an option. Just pick any of the other 18 Successor Tactics.

 

Want to use Calgar in your army? Well, he's got the Ultramarines keyword, so yes, he has to use the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic.


Edited by Lord_Caerolion, 04 October 2019 - 04:31 AM.

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#10
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Yeah, you are right about the CTs not being based off the keyword, so that does invalidate my example about UM using a different CT. But that just makes the inheritors rule even weirder then. Because, to that same degree, the Inheritors rule isn't based off of keyword either. So how else is it supposed to be enforced other than "yeah this army is obviously intended to look like the Raptors"? And if that's not the case, what's the reason for it at all?


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#11
Lord_Caerolion

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The Keyword will be the same. I'd more pointed it out to cut off the rules-lawyer argument of "Ultramarines (name) aren't necessarily ULTRAMARINES (Keyword)". A Raptor unit has the RAPTOR Keyword, per the rules for Keywords (page 108), and it's up to you what Successor Tactic best represents that, but per canon they are Raven Guard Successors. The reasoning as for why that rule is as it is, is because they're trying to match the fluff closer than ever. Inheritors of the Primarch, as above, is meant to be "they fight the same way as their Founder", which in the case of the Raptors is the Raven Guard. The flavour text is "So closely do this Chapter's warriors cleave to the strategic doctrines of their genetic forebears that only their heraldry marks them out as unique from the First Founding Chapter they emulate". The Raptors genetic forebears are the Raven Guard.


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#12
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See this discussion from August.


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#13
Boyadventurer

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Lord, we're definitely having a miscommunication here, haha. Like, I get the spirit of it and what it's meant to accomplish -- these guys fight like their primogenitor -- but what I'm stuck on is how this is to be enforced? How is this supposed to work in game?

 

There's the obvious case of taking a special character, then they're coming with the <Raptors> keyword and that unequivocally triggers that caveat in the designer's note, I get that. But I'm taking the fact that it is worded "Chapter" and not "<Chapter>" at face value, since the whole point of the keyword system is using that <> format when they're specifically referring to it. So when, for the purpose of this rule, is an army considered (non-keyword) Raptors or not?

 

Edit: there's also the probably 100% chance that it actually IS supposed to say <Chapter> and all of this is moot. It's not like it didn't take them a couple Deathwatch FAQ editions to figure out the difference between Reiver and <Reiver> :P


Edited by Boyadventurer, 04 October 2019 - 08:31 PM.

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#14
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Whenever you feel like it without issodon.

#15
Wulf Vengis

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I Have to agree with Skimask here. Just don't play a special character from a chapter you don't want to use the tactics of.
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#16
Boyadventurer

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Yeah guys, I get how it works with Issodon. That's really not what I'm talking about though.


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#17
Bryan Blaire

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New codex, pg 177, Inheritors of the Primarch, Designer's Notes

If, in the background of our publications, your Chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter, you must select the chapter trait of that First Founding Chapter.

This was reinforced further in the FAQ stating that Emperor's Spears have you use UM CT in this case.
You misquoted the Designer's Note, which is why it seems to be hard to understand - a key set of words was left out. This is what it actually says:

Designer's Note: If, in the background of our publications, your Chapter is a known successor of a specific First Founding Chapter (for example, the Storm Lords Chapter is a known successor of the White Scars), then if you select this Successor Tactic you must select the Chapter Tactic of that First Founding Chapter.

So, per what I will say below, you only have to use the First Founding tactic IF you choose to use the Inheritors of the Primarch CT - you don't have to use it though.

This was reinforced further in the FAQ stating that Emperor's Spears have you use UM CT in this case.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, that's not what the FAQ says at all. This is what the FAQ says:

Page 174 – Chapter Tactics
Add the following:
Designer’s Note: The Chapter Tactic rules presented in Codex: Space Marines and its codex supplements replace any Chapter Tactics previously printed in other publications, including those for Blood Ravens and Crimson Fists in White Dwarf magazine and the Chapter Tactic for the Emperor’s Spears included with the limited edition of the Spear of the Emperor novel. Crimson Fists should use the No Matter the Odds Chapter Tactic (pg 175), while Blood Ravens and the Emperor’s Spears should use the Successor Chapter Tactics rules on page 176. Note that the Emperor’s Spears are a successor Chapter of the Ultramarines, and so if you choose the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic, you must use the Chapter Tactic of the Ultramarines.’

It doesn't say that if you use the Emperor's Spears, you must use the Ultramarines CT - it specifically says "if you choose the Inheritors of the Primarch Successor Tactic", then you would use the UM CT. Otherwise you follow the Successor CT rules on page 176.

But that's the trick, there's nothing out there saying "your blue and gold guys with the U on the shoulder have to be played as Ultramarines". It's weird that there is one now specifically for *some* successors.

Lord_Caerolion already answered you on this, but I think you are missing what is being said:

You never HAVE to use Inheritors of the Primarch - it's a choice you get to make IF you want to.

So even if you say you are playing Raptors, if you don't take Inheritors of the Primarch, you never would trigger the "Designer's Note" at all.

You can always pick two other Successor Tactics - nothing in the rules says that if you are playing a Successor from the lore, you must take Inheritors of the Primarch. I certainly never would playing the Emperor's Spears or any other Chapter that doesn't fight exactly like their forerunner Chapter.
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#18
Wulf Vengis

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If you're referring to having to play raptors with raven guard tactics, simply because they're descendants of Raven Guard, than, that is what the blurb seems to be saying.
SHOULD you be locked into those tactics based on your preference in color scheme? Ehhhh, i don't know... It does seem restrictive on the part of GW but they've released rules for your chosen chapter (via Raven Guard) and in GWs defense they've fleshed out their rules to explain how you're chosen chapters primogenitor operates.
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#19
Bryan Blaire

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If you're referring to having to play raptors with raven guard tactics, simply because they're descendants of Raven Guard, than, that is what the blurb seems to be saying.
SHOULD you be locked into those tactics based on your preference in color scheme? Ehhhh, i don't know... It does seem restrictive on the part of GW but they've released rules for your chosen chapter (via Raven Guard) and in GWs defense they've fleshed out their rules to explain how you're chosen chapters primogenitor operates.

It's not, because that's not what the actual rules say, per the above explanation. It's a misunderstanding of what is actually written by continuously dropping key phrases out of the rules so that they say something other than what they say.
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#20
Boyadventurer

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I'm sorry guys for whatever disconnect is going on, no one seems to be getting what I'm saying here! I know how the successors chapter traits work and how I can choose to include/not the special character. I'm not trying to game the system or find a way around it. I get that there's other options. I just wanted to know what people thought about and how they are handling *this* specific option, since this is one of the first times I can recall that GW is now writing rules "if we've said this in the lore, then it's going to restrict you in game".

 

Really, I think I'm just missing the point of Inheritors all together. Raptors has been a bad example being one of the only successors with a known founder who has a special character, so that is complicating things. If I had my army done up as Mentors and want to use Codex discipline instead of picking 2 traits, what's the point of taking Inheritors when I can just call them white and green <Ultramarines> yknow? Like, there is literally no reason for Inheritors (that I'm seeing) if the colour of your army doesn't matter right?

 

Then to add to it is the confusion I'm having about the designer note itself. Like I mentioned above, it's not basing the rule off what keyword you are using, so then how is it determined what this chapter is besides how it's painted? What is the point of it saying "Chapter" and not "<Chapter>"?

Edit: Thanks for the additional info above Bryan. I was omitting that part because it wasn't pertaining to what I was talking about (I know you don't *have* to pick inheritors, but I'm just talking about when you do)


Edited by Boyadventurer, 05 October 2019 - 02:33 AM.

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#21
Bryan Blaire

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It seems more like you want to know what the point of "Inheritors of the Primarch" is than how anyone 'enforces' it?

Only thing I can come up with is it's for those people who want to have the narrative of being a known Successor of a Chapter without playing "counts-as" for that actual Chapter - they aren't "faking" who their Chapter is for extra named characters, etc. They want to narratively and rules-wise be the Genesis Chapter or Sons of Orar.
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#22
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What Bryan Blaire said.

Also for anyone playing at GW tournaments where scheme actually does dictate what rules they have.
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#23
Marshal Rohr

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Its really not unreasonable that if you pick a known successor of a Primarch and want to use Inheritors you’re bound to to the CT of that Primarch. No matter how much your Ultramarines Successor likes tanks, it will never be as expert as a chapter descended from the Iron Hands and that is okay. It helps make Space Marines feel diverse in an era of hyper-restrictive army lists and unit choices. You could have two armored forces from different chapters with wildly different bonuses and those two armies play differently than Iron Hands. That’s awesome.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 05 October 2019 - 12:34 PM.

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#24
Lord_Caerolion

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As Skimask said, some GW tournaments have a rule of "you play what you're painted as". If you're Mentors, you are not Ultramarines, so you can't just straight-up use the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic. Instead, they could be Inheritors, and have mostly the same end effect. 

 

Also, again, this absolutely isn't the first time this sort of rule was featured. It was also present in the last Codex, where you were restricted to just the main Chapter Tactics. If you were a known successor, too bad, you use the parent Tactic, even if that makes no sense and doesn't match your fluff.


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#25
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I abhor seeing things like Blood Angels played as say Ultramarines. There’s really no excuse for it.
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