193 replies to this topic

[Black_Knight]

Its not peculiar they want you to buy what you want and then whatever they add with it, so if you want the scenery you have to buy the gangs as well even if you don't want them. Its like the internet companies in America who sell you TV that you do not want with your internet. I do not expect stand alone walls for another 6 months.

Edited by Black_Knight, 05 November 2019 - 04:01 PM.

[General Strike]

I'm annoyed that I can buy the floor tiles but the walls are in that expensive box. With stuff I don't want.

[Son of Carnelian]

Folks, I understand the prices are ridiculous but let's not pretend that a ZM board is anything other than a niche part of an already niche hobby. It's not the same price structure as some of their other boxes because it's aimed at a different audience.

I know tensions are high right now, but let's try and keep this in perspective. This is a specialist product for Specialist Games and they priced it as such, rightly or wrongly.

[Imren]

Folks, I understand the prices are ridiculous but let's not pretend that a ZM board is anything other than a niche part of an already niche hobby. It's not the same price structure as some of their other boxes because it's aimed at a different audience.

I know tensions are high right now, but let's try and keep this in perspective. This is a specialist product for Specialist Games and they priced it as such, rightly or wrongly.

 

You're right, however; Out of 1000 randon chosen warhammer players there will be more players that plays 30k than Necromunda. So they have a way larger potential customer base for releasing a 30k boxed set with ZM floor tiles, ZM wall sections and a few 30k infantry sprues thrown in without any new special game rules or such (as in BoC and BoP boxes). Such a box could easily be priced for 150 USD and still be sold out. Also such a box would cost 0 USD in development (all sprues are already made for other boxed games). So from a business (and a customer demand perspective) its a no-brainer to do.

 

But still they do this totally hollow-brained launches of releasing ZM tiles and walls for a Necromunda starter set with bunch of models only Necromunda players ask for and a separate boxed set of tiles as a "ZM terrain boxed set" implicitly aimed at 30k players (since FW released an updated Horus Heresy rule set for ZM saye day these ZM tiles were released) but without wall section that only come in the massive all-out 'Munda box.

 

A high school sophomore with below-average intelligence studying a "basics of business" course cold figure this one out.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't know about that. It cost 40 dollars to make a necromunda gang. It costs a lot more to make a Heresy army. The Necromunda community is probably much larger than the Heresy community after the carpetbaggers quit playing. 

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 05 November 2019 - 05:07 PM.

[Petitioner's City]

And soon there will be those walls, corners, stairs and other things that 30k ZM players will be able to get, presumably sold seperately. Just because it isn't sold freely this weekend doesn't mean it won't be in a few months!

Edited by Petitioner's City, 05 November 2019 - 05:15 PM.

[Gederas]

And soon there will be those walls, corners, stairs and other things that 30k ZM players will be able to get, presumably sold seperately. Just because it isn't sold freely this weekend doesn't mean it won't be in a few months!

This. They're releasing the floor tiles first, everything else will be sold later (probably a month later at the most?)

[Black_Knight]

Seems posts are being deleted...

 

I doubt we will see the walls for atleast a few months, they want you to buy the box. There are no indications for extras until next year(From the leaked releases). The reason we are getting the floors are because people will need to replace that poster mat within a few playthroughs.

Edited by Black_Knight, 05 November 2019 - 05:48 PM.

[Noserenda]

The specialist games generally dwarf the Heresy player base, blood bowl certainly and I'd be deeply surprised if necromunda didn't too tbh. I mean just look how the famously profit lead Tony C treats them via FW for confirmation.

Regardless GW has always boxed up new terrain with a skirmish game in the new era, presumably they have a good reason for it?

[Magos Takatus]

I think the terrain in this box looks fantastic but I don't need the miniatures and I really need to upgrade my pc before splashing out on another large GW box set. It's not something you can really pick up on a whim.

[Soldier of Dorn]

You're right, however; Out of 1000 randon chosen warhammer players there will be more players that plays 30k than Necromunda.

 

Care to back that up, or do you just have anecdotal evidence of your local community? Because while that might have been true in... say, 2016, prior to the resurrection of Necromunda and the death of Alan Bligh, that's a very bold claim to make.
 

So they have a way larger potential customer base for releasing a 30k boxed set with ZM floor tiles, ZM wall sections and a few 30k infantry sprues thrown in without any new special game rules or such (as in BoC and BoP boxes). Such a box could easily be priced for 150 USD and still be sold out. Also such a box would cost 0 USD in development (all sprues are already made for other boxed games). So from a business (and a customer demand perspective) its a no-brainer to do.

 

... you're surely joking, right? No cost in development? Asides from, I dunno, box art and deciding what to put in the box -- i.e., development -- your assertion that all sprues are already made assumes that these Zone Mortalis terrain pieces were designed in a vacuum, instead of for Necromunda, and just happened to be tossed into the Dark Uprising box. As for rules development costs, to use your own logic, "all [rules] are already made for other [publications.]"
 

But still they do this totally hollow-brained launches of releasing ZM tiles and walls for a Necromunda starter set with bunch of models only Necromunda players ask for and a separate boxed set of tiles as a "ZM terrain boxed set" implicitly aimed at 30k players (since FW released an updated Horus Heresy rule set for ZM same day these ZM tiles were released) but without wall section that only come in the massive all-out 'Munda box.

 

It's not implicitly aimed at 30k players. It's explicitly aimed at Necromunda players. The fact that Warhammer Community released an updated ruleset for Horus Heresy Zone Mortalis doesn't mean that these new tiles are implicitly targeted for 30k any more than them releasing AoS rules for the Shadespire and Warcry warbands means those are implicitly targeted for Age of Sigmar or 40k rules for the stuff in Blackstone Fortress implicitly means that things like the spindle drones and ambull are meant to be used in 40k first and foremost. Are they hedging their bets? Sure, and we would expect nothing less of them at this point. But please don't spew this bull about implicit marketing and expect anyone to take you seriously. 

 

In general, you seem to have this idea that that Games Workshop has a single studio that pumps out releases for a variety of games, and it would be possible for them to just swing a product release over to another game. Yet we know that's not the case: this is a Specialist Games studio project, and the people working on this produced it because it's for Necromunda. They didn't produce it because they needed a place to market a random terrain project that they had finished and thus tossed together some other models and some rules together to make a box, they sought to put out what they did.

 

A high school sophomore with below-average intelligence studying a "basics of business" course cold figure this one out.

 

Okay.

[MegaVolt87]

@Soldier of Dorn-

 

1- Agreed, anecdotal without official research. 

2- dev costs minimal not zero in comparison. Art can be recycled, ZM re-work on WarCom could be in box, can be same or less mini's as in Betrayal at Calth/ Burning of Prospero. It would have been more expensive to design those new munda mini's alone. 

3- The warcry stuff is aimed at AoS players, the warbands are going to be units in the new chaos battletome. Munda units could be mercs etc to  fit in 40k/ seperate detachment. CSM players see all munda releases as potential chaos cultists, so it has appeal even so indirectly.

4. Average intelligence business studies student is more appropriate for that shade thrown, otherwise true. 

[Spagunk]

Pacific NW definitely has plenty of HH players. Most of whom actually play ZM almost exclusively and spend a LOT of money towards HH. I don't quite see that HH is dead or that it's on its way out. Especially since we have potential book 9 coming up, book 8 came out this year, two factions who got new models and one even got a way overdue model. But what we don't have is regional numbers. It could very well only see movement in small locals.

 

Regarding the ZM boards, they are pretty close to the exact same floor pattern as the resin ones so I mean I think ZM boards were purposely made to be applicable to both.

 

Regardless, I welcome the new plastic ZM board overlords!

Edited by Spagunk, 06 November 2019 - 12:26 AM.

[Mackenzie]

HH is far from dead. I started up a group with an aim for a full blown campaign starting in 2020 here in Ohio a few months ago. We have 12 people signed up to start in January. I am really hoping the new ZM floor tiles match up with the resin ones because my 4’x4’ is not going to be enough for all of us come next year.

Also great to hear about the PNW. That’s my home. Astoria OR specifically. It would be nice to move back to some good games in a few years.

[Spagunk]

HH is far from dead. I started up a group with an aim for a full blown campaign starting in 2020 here in Ohio a few months ago. We have 12 people signed up to start in January. I am really hoping the new ZM floor tiles match up with the resin ones because my 4’x4’ is not going to be enough for all of us come next year.

Also great to hear about the PNW. That’s my home. Astoria OR specifically. It would be nice to move back to some good games in a few years.

Mostly seattle, Vancouver/longview areas is where I mostly do stuff. We have 30 ppl who are planning to go to LVO just for ZM games.

[mateus of ultramar]

let me put it to everybody here, If I can get a 4x4 ZM table for $500? im IN simple as that

[Imren]

 

You're right, however; Out of 1000 randon chosen warhammer players there will be more players that plays 30k than Necromunda.

 

Care to back that up, or do you just have anecdotal evidence of your local community? Because while that might have been true in... say, 2016, prior to the resurrection of Necromunda and the death of Alan Bligh, that's a very bold claim to make.
 

So they have a way larger potential customer base for releasing a 30k boxed set with ZM floor tiles, ZM wall sections and a few 30k infantry sprues thrown in without any new special game rules or such (as in BoC and BoP boxes). Such a box could easily be priced for 150 USD and still be sold out. Also such a box would cost 0 USD in development (all sprues are already made for other boxed games). So from a business (and a customer demand perspective) its a no-brainer to do.

 

... you're surely joking, right? No cost in development? Asides from, I dunno, box art and deciding what to put in the box -- i.e., development -- your assertion that all sprues are already made assumes that these Zone Mortalis terrain pieces were designed in a vacuum, instead of for Necromunda, and just happened to be tossed into the Dark Uprising box. As for rules development costs, to use your own logic, "all [rules] are already made for other [publications.]"
 

But still they do this totally hollow-brained launches of releasing ZM tiles and walls for a Necromunda starter set with bunch of models only Necromunda players ask for and a separate boxed set of tiles as a "ZM terrain boxed set" implicitly aimed at 30k players (since FW released an updated Horus Heresy rule set for ZM same day these ZM tiles were released) but without wall section that only come in the massive all-out 'Munda box.

 

It's not implicitly aimed at 30k players. It's explicitly aimed at Necromunda players. The fact that Warhammer Community released an updated ruleset for Horus Heresy Zone Mortalis doesn't mean that these new tiles are implicitly targeted for 30k any more than them releasing AoS rules for the Shadespire and Warcry warbands means those are implicitly targeted for Age of Sigmar or 40k rules for the stuff in Blackstone Fortress implicitly means that things like the spindle drones and ambull are meant to be used in 40k first and foremost. Are they hedging their bets? Sure, and we would expect nothing less of them at this point. But please don't spew this bull about implicit marketing and expect anyone to take you seriously. 

 

In general, you seem to have this idea that that Games Workshop has a single studio that pumps out releases for a variety of games, and it would be possible for them to just swing a product release over to another game. Yet we know that's not the case: this is a Specialist Games studio project, and the people working on this produced it because it's for Necromunda. They didn't produce it because they needed a place to market a random terrain project that they had finished and thus tossed together some other models and some rules together to make a box, they sought to put out what they did.

 

A high school sophomore with below-average intelligence studying a "basics of business" course cold figure this one out.

 

Okay.

 

 

 

When it comes to do statistical statements and remarks, yes, I speak out of my experience of my community geographically limited to Sweden but also from my contact of the outside world within the online community in regards of Necromunda and 30k respectively. And no, it is not anecdotal from 2016 although I played Necromunda since 1998. again no, I have not made a social science study with applied mathematical statistics and presented in a thesis to back that up but I still find myself have sufficient experience of the two special game communities to make such a statement.

 

No I'm not joking when I state that the potential customer base for 30k is way larger than Necromunda. Why? The product range of 30k is much larger and worth way more in actual made revenue for GW compared to Necromunda. The investment to play 30k is larger, there are since 2014-2015 already thousands of players that have invested thousands of USD and hundreds of hours to collect and paint a 30k army (or several). The tournament scene anywhere on earth for 30k compared to Necromunda speaks for itself, and keep in mind that Necromunda have been around since around mid 90's. So yes, 30k scene is larger, worth way more in terms of business, with players with a strong purchase power (battle ready 30k army cost way more in time and money compared to a battle ready Munda gang) heavily invested. So yes, when it comes to looking at the potential business potential of a boxed set with ZM tiles, ZM walls and a few 30k infantry sprues the business potential is much larger if it is aimed towards 30k consumers compared to Necromunda consumers. You are more likely to consume ZM terrain if you play 30k than Necromunda, because ZM is a much appreciated and well settled special game feature in 30k globally compared to Necromunda.

 

So you are right, I should have said "near 0 USD" instead of "0 USD" when I mentioned the dev costs of such a box I spoke of. They would have to pay a Photoshop artist a few hours of work to make the box art. All the other content of such a box is already paid for in terms of development costs. Its just a matter of production costs. So the profit margin (more correctly the IBT) (revenue - costs (development, production, distribution)) for such a box would have been much higher compared to the new Munda box.

 

When you launch and call a certain gaming terrain product "Zone Mortalis tiles" and you launch a refreshed set of rules for it for 30k (keep in mind that the original ZM rules for 30k been around since HH black book one) then yes, you can argue it is implicitly aimed at 30k players/consumers although it comes also together with its separate vital components (ZM wall sections) only in a Necromunda starter box. The fact that the Necromunda starter box the tiles with wall sections comes in is explicitly aimed to Necromunda players doesn't rule out that the tiles box is implicitly aimed towards 30k players.

 

I'm aware that GW have several work groups, studios, teams that work with different product ranges. My point is that in this specific circumstance of much anticipated ZM tiles and wall sections among the 30k community being developed for Necromunda with measures that fit 30k rule set too and the fact that 30k infantry is already developed and in production since few years ago makes it a case of just swinging it in terms of packaging the following:

• Already developed plastic ZM tiles
• Already developed plastic ZM wall sections
• Already developed plastic 30k infantry

In a boxed set that will cost near zero in dev costs and still be sold out even if priced 100-150 USD range.

 

So no, I don't see that I'm bull:cussting.

[beefeb]

I'll be getting at least one of the boxes.  Why, because I want to and because its worth it to me.

 

Theres lots of comments about wether its worth it or not.  The simple answer is we will see.  If they sell, then there are enough people who consider it to be worth it, therefore it is.

 

The box to represents a huge step down in costs from the zone mortalis boards which while they were great were very expensive and limited.  The walls did not move around and they were single level.  Theres only so many times you can rotate a tile for variety.

 

The plastic setup allows for different levels of investment...I dont yet know if i will get the floor tiles...they looked great on the warhammer twitch program, but i will wait to see the quality of the card base first.  Similarly, there are plenty of generic neoprene gaming mats that will easily work well with the walls and stairs setup so there are options.

 

The box contains 2 gangs, each with more than 10 miniatures, so likely thats more than a full box of each so I wont have to buy anymore gangs to go into it if i dont want to, but i already have a full gang of every faction so moot point i guess.

 

Ultimately to me, as I say Ill be buying at least 1 of these sets, and likely at least some of the extra wall sets when they are released.  Yes GW are out to make as much money from these as possible, but thats what business is all about.  Every time this type of set comes out, and makes a profit, the more money goes back into development.  GW have built their own additional plastic casting facilities.  This represents additional capacity and hobby scope for all of us.  The more money GW makes the better as far as i see it.  I respect your wishes if you wont or cant buy the set....but to me its very much worth it. 

 

ve seen people in my peer group go out on a Saturday night to a pub, then a club, then a kebab shop and taxi home, having spent far more than this box is going to cost and not even thinking twice about how much money they have spent......  Id rather have the models thanks very much

[Ranulf]

Given that we have had a vent about pricing and are now venturing into speculation about marketing strategies and the relative size of player bases in regards to different gaming systems, it's time to take a break folks. Thread will be reopened if there is good cause.

 

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