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Triple Vindicare Assassins to beat Iron Hands


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38 replies to this topic

#26
Mandragola

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The point about seeing under repulsors needs addressing I guess. You can do this, but not if you're in an elevated position. It still doesn't help if the target is out of sight and it doesn't do anything about cogitated martyrdom.

 

Realistically, an IH player is going to hate on enemy eliminators pretty hard. They won't get all that many shots. I guess this is an argument for vindicares, which get to use the character rules to stay alive.

 

Still, if you think sniping the characters will work, give it a try. I've already said why I don't think it will but both of us are just theorising now and it can only be proven in play. Good luck to you.

 

I do not thing snipers are an auto-win against the IH deathstar but I do think they are a viable counter that means the game will come down to relative player skill and luck. Which is as it should be.  I definitely do not think any part of Repulsors not blocking LOS needs addressing - it is an inherent weakness that most vehicles with the Fly keyword share.

 

The very existence of Eliminators will force the IH player to put the Ironstone on an expensive character like a Gravis Captain - because the cheap Ironstone caddies are prone to dying to the Executioner rounds even when hidden. 

 

 

Sorry, I don't mean it needs to be changed. Yes, you can see under a repulsor, and that's totally fair enough. I just meant your point needed to be addressed because it's a good point.

 

I don't think anyone claims that you can't see under them. I certainly don't. I do claim that LoS-blocking terrain exists, and that it doesn't actually hamper the IH player all that much to deploy with his characters out of sight.

 

I actually like eliminators. It's true that IH players will want to put the ironstone on a tough-ish model, not just a Lieutenant. This kind of forces them to take a 3rd HQ (after Feirros and the LT) in the form of a captain of some kind. A Gravis Captain might be the best option.


C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#27
Happy-inquisitor

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I don't think anyone claims that you can't see under them. I certainly don't. I do claim that LoS-blocking terrain exists, and that it doesn't actually hamper the IH player all that much to deploy with his characters out of sight.

 

I actually like eliminators. It's true that IH players will want to put the ironstone on a tough-ish model, not just a Lieutenant. This kind of forces them to take a 3rd HQ (after Feirros and the LT) in the form of a captain of some kind. A Gravis Captain might be the best option.

 

 

I have seen people claim they block LOS by themselves - which if anyone tried to claim in a game I would be either calling BS or calling a judge for modelling for advantage.

 

As you say the IH player will be tempted to put a 3rd solid character in that blob and possibly a squad of Intercessors to do the grot shields thing. After which you are looking at over 1300 points all crammed into one small area of the table - the problem with scoring presence will be pretty severe in 2000 point games and quite crippling at 1750. It is undeniably powerful but in objective based games (I nearly always play the CA18 missions competitively) it will not have easy wins against canny players with decent lists.

 

If I played ITC missions I might be more concerned but I actively avoid tournaments that use those missions so it is not a concern for me.


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#28
Mandragola

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I don't think anyone claims that you can't see under them. I certainly don't. I do claim that LoS-blocking terrain exists, and that it doesn't actually hamper the IH player all that much to deploy with his characters out of sight.

 

I actually like eliminators. It's true that IH players will want to put the ironstone on a tough-ish model, not just a Lieutenant. This kind of forces them to take a 3rd HQ (after Feirros and the LT) in the form of a captain of some kind. A Gravis Captain might be the best option.

 

 

I have seen people claim they block LOS by themselves - which if anyone tried to claim in a game I would be either calling BS or calling a judge for modelling for advantage.

 

As you say the IH player will be tempted to put a 3rd solid character in that blob and possibly a squad of Intercessors to do the grot shields thing. After which you are looking at over 1300 points all crammed into one small area of the table - the problem with scoring presence will be pretty severe in 2000 point games and quite crippling at 1750. It is undeniably powerful but in objective based games (I nearly always play the CA18 missions competitively) it will not have easy wins against canny players with decent lists.

 

If I played ITC missions I might be more concerned but I actively avoid tournaments that use those missions so it is not a concern for me.

 

 

I agree that different formats of the game will change the army. That’s the case for pretty much everything. I play various formats myself.

 

I’ll be at the finals of the UKGT in January. That uses 1750 point CA missions – presumably those from CA19 when that comes out. Their terrain tends to be pretty porous, meaning that snipers are more of a threat. It also means the executioners will be able to see a long way.

 

At 1750 you can’t take anywhere near as much extra stuff. The fixed costs of the list are high, as you point out. I drew up a list with battalion, spearhead, TFC and 3 eliminators, for example. I took infiltrators and sniper scouts instead of intercessors for troops, so as to grab objectives early. Losing the flyer wing clearly hurts the list a lot. TFCs are great though, and with less stuff blocking LoS the eliminators should be good too.

 

I do find that the best solutions to Iron Hands can be found with other Iron Hands. Iron Hand snipers are very good, for example.


C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#29
NatBrannigan

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That's a good point about Repulsors and LOS, I've never actually thought about it before.



#30
The Unseen

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You counter Iron Hands the same way you counter every gunline ever.
Outplay, and outscore.
It's the game on easy mode, park in a corner and shoot stuff dead.
But putting that many characters and vehicles inside a 3" bubble isn't going to be easy between terrain and los lanes.
At least, if your table isnt trash.
So they'll either give up board control to maintain buffs, which means you play like a coward and outscore them.
Or they spread out, meaning you can kill stuff because it isn't protected.

Also, repulsors are pretty tough with a 5++ and the Ironstone, but they aren't actually all that killy for their points.

And I'm not all that bothered by the Eldar flyer list getting hammered.
It's basically the same kind of list, except its also super mobile.
But IH have a bigger hammer, and the flyer list gives up board control to be more lethal, so it can't play to objectives.
Too bad, so sad, that's the new kid on the blocks shtick now.

Iron Hands are now THE premier "rock" list, displacing eldar flyers and knights.
People are just bitching because the new marine dex is a meta shift.

If in 6 months every tournament is being dominated by poorly painted silver handed marines, feel free to call me out as wrong, but this isn't any different than any other time a codex that's powerful drops.
It's just that usually the combos aren't so blatantly obvious AND powerful.
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"For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!"

 

 


#31
Captain Idaho

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My only problem with this concept is the way the majority of tables, including those at GW (even their own Warhammer World tables) have terrain that doesn't block line of sight.

Then I've felt for a long time abstract rules for terrain and unit size should be brought back into the game. Once that happens, more assault forces come back into the game and the whole thing rebalances.

As it stands, 80-90% of games will be dominated by these castles

#32
Happy-inquisitor

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My only problem with this concept is the way the majority of tables, including those at GW (even their own Warhammer World tables) have terrain that doesn't block line of sight.

Then I've felt for a long time abstract rules for terrain and unit size should be brought back into the game. Once that happens, more assault forces come back into the game and the whole thing rebalances.

As it stands, 80-90% of games will be dominated by these castles

 

Maybe, maybe not. We have seen Rock but we do not yet know what the new Paper looks like. I suspect from the rumours that Imperial Fists will do some work as Paper in this matchup. Far too early to tell what sorts of lists will be Scissors.

 

It is going to be a meta change whatever happens and some of the current top meta lists (which if we are honest most of us are rather bored of by now) are not going to make it intact into the new meta.


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#33
Captain Idaho

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I don't believe anything the Imperial Fists do will be anything other than Castling though. So they might hard counter a vehicle castle but they themselves end up being a bolter and anti tank castle.

#34
Slasher956

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but as a hard counter to IHs they will appear on the tourny scene there fore limiting the proliferation of the IH castle...

 

and the next army out will be a counter to the IF castle



#35
Captain Idaho

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But how is that good? The problem is the same - castles and gun lines. It's just replacing one problem for a different coloured version of the same.
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#36
Happy-inquisitor

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I don't believe anything the Imperial Fists do will be anything other than Castling though. So they might hard counter a vehicle castle but they themselves end up being a bolter and anti tank castle.


I don't see Imperial Fists as being anything like as much of a castle list as Iron Hands. Sure they have aura buffs - as does almost every faction in the game - but they are neither so overwhelmingly strong nor as small in range as those of the Iron Hands. With just a 40K-normal level of aura buffs I expect Imperial Fists to play as a fairly normal army on the table - rather than as the pretty extreme castle style that has been the initial response to the Iron Hands rules.

 

The biggest buffs the IF get are from their chapter tactic and their super-doctrine, plus possibly stratagems when we see them all. Those work anywhere. Yes they might benefit from a Captain/Lt/Ancient but nothing changed there from before the new codex and that is no different to pretty much any faction in the game. As a response to certain specific threats (e.g. GSC) they might castle but in the general case I think they will just play normally.

 

Iron Hands by contrast are getting incredible boosts to durability on top of the normal boosts to damage output from clumping together and are looking to build lists which are barely competitive without those boosts. Some of those auras are tiny - 3"! So Iron Hands are quite likely to be even more of a castle list than triptide Tau.


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#37
Mandragola

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Agreed. I don’t think Fists will want to castle up anything like as much as IH do. They’ve got no Ironstone to need to shelter within 3” of. They do get penalised for moving and shooting though.

 

That’s actually less of a problem than it might seem. Quite a lot of units have potms. There’s a 1cp strat to have a vehicle fire like it’s stationary and FW dreads have good BS in the first place. Centurions can move and shoot without penalty too – though not especially quickly!

 

A slightly scary thing about this is that it means Iron Hands don’t really need their super doctrine either. You can take a spearhead of Feirros, three repulsors and some other HQ with the Ironstone and have ~800 points left for whatever else you like in a 2k list. If you need board control then get 30 ravenguard intercessors/infiltrators/whatever and a couple of smash captains.

 

Here’s a list I threw together to show the kind of thing that’s possible. Comes to 1997.

 

IH Spearhead

 

Feirros 110
 
Gravis Captain 108
Boltstorm Gauntlet
Master-crafted Power Sword
 
Repulsor Executioner 335
Heavy laser Destroyer
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Twin Heavy Bolter
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy stubbers
Two Storm Bolters
Icarus Rocket Pod
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
 
Repulsor Executioner 335
Heavy laser Destroyer
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Twin Heavy Bolter
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy stubbers
Two Storm Bolters
Icarus Rocket Pod
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
 
Repulsor Executioner 335
Heavy laser Destroyer
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Twin Heavy Bolter
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
Twin Icarus Ironhail heavy stubbers
Two Storm Bolters
Icarus Rocket Pod
Two fragstorm grenade launchers
 
Raven Guard Successor Battalion
 
Captain with Jump Pack 143
Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
 
Chaplain with Jump Pack 90
 
5 Intercessors 90
Auto Bolt Rifles
Chainsword
 
5 Intercessors 90
Auto Bolt Rifles
Chainsword
 
5 Intercessors 85
Stalker Bolt Rifles
Chainsword
 
3 Assault Centurions 204
3 Hurricane Bolters
6 Meltas
 
3 Eliminators 72
Bolt Sniper Rifles
Camo Cloaks
 
Edit: Formatting went weird.

Edited by Mandragola, 11 October 2019 - 01:53 PM.

C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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#38
Dracos

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I’d suggest we stay focused on the OT of using Vindicare.

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#39
Mandragola

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I’d suggest we stay focused on the OT of using Vindicare.

 

We kind of had that conversation. No, you can’t use Vindicare assassins to stop Iron Hands. You’re unlikely to get LoS before the repulsors kill everything and they have a stratagem to have other models tank the wounds you cause.

 

You’re right though, the conversation has moved on. Could move on to another topic I guess.


C+C always welcome on my Titanic Plog. Should also be painting Crimson Fists or something.

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