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Iron Hands nerf?

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#51
emperorpants

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The codices are being updated and re-leveled, guys. We might seem OP now...but give it 6 months.


While true, we have already seen that IH is heads and shoulders better than the other space marine supplements that have been released. It's not even close. IH blow Ultras, WS, and RG out of the water and in some ways do their things better than them. It's comical almost. This means that the internal balance of the supplements was out of whack from the word go. Doesn't inspire confidence. If new things are released that are on IH levels of power, than Ultras, RG, WS, and more than likely IF and Sallies are in trouble.

Were you here for the Edition change? When C:SM dropped and the only army with a codex was blowing Index-only armies out of the water left, right, and center?

That's what this. Be patient, grit your teeth, and do your best to handle the cyber-boys-in-black. Everything will be leveled eventually.

 

I get it, I do.  What I am saying though is that some other supplements have been released and we have a good idea of what will be in the other supplements that are coming out soon, so we can get an idea about some of the balance.  IH is blatantly superior to those armies.  Ultras, RG, WS are already out and not even close to IH's power.  From all we've seen IF and Sallies won't be able to compete either. 

 

Again, these are armies that have their update or about to get them.  How are they supposed to compete if you are right and it turns out that other armies get to be as good as or even stronger than an army that already is superior to them?  Imo, that's not good balance.  


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#52
MeltaRange

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If this is true, then why aren't the other chapters being singled out for being way too good?  

 

Pretty sure there has been push back on several codexes. I know that C:SM was one of them. Remember the days of Bobby-G and the Flyer spam? No one wants to even deal with Eldar. Eldar have been super strong for years now. IH are getting so much attention because they were just released. Give it a few months and we'll be talking about the next op-codex release.

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I just want to make it clear here that I'm debating just for fun/kill time, not because I'm super stressed about it or angry.

 

I definitely get your point and it's not lost on me.  But this time, it feels a bit different.  I think it's the fact they are releasing both the codex and 6 chapter supplements in relatively quick succession for the same faction makes it different.  3 of those supplements (so far) feel fluffy and fair.  One of them feels ridiculously OP.  It seems very unlikely that GW did not know that this was going to be the case, but decided to release it anyway, probably as a business decision.  

 

As Emperorpants said above, I think it's hard to even make a fluffy, "casual" army for IH that's not outrageously strong.  For me, I think that's the difference between this codex and say Eldar or CSM, or many others.  It just seems like it's "THE BEST, period" and that's it, and that rubs people the wrong way, both IH players and non-IH players.


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#53
Shinespider

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It'll be interesting to see if they're actually as dominant as people imagine. I'm seeing a lot of people saying that the Dread thing is overblown.

 

My guess is that the Ironstone will be changed so that you have to pick one vehicle at the start of every battle round to confer the bonus to. It'll still be powerful for keeping something alive, but you won't be able to build an entire castle around it. 


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#54
helterskelter

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They're new hotness. A few regular astartes lists have been up there too and I'm willing to bet its the artisans (re-roll 1 hit and 1 wound one?) and stealthy traits they're running.
I know ultras aren't there but iron hands currently are a more competitive army. Reasonably sure the iron father cost is a typo and shall be addressed soon enough, but that in itself won't stop them being a strong army with access to everything that marines have.
Phobos allows for board domination shenanigans and combined with a solid yet mobile anchor you're going to win a few things until people learn how to deal with the new stuff properly.
Learning takes time. Next year with a bunch of new rules for everyone and some 2.0s the field will look different.
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#55
Ishagu

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The codex releases have not always been on an upward curve. There's no guarantee that future books will be better, or that they are indeed going to release new ones for every faction.
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#56
MARK0SIAN

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The codex releases have not always been on an upward curve. There's no guarantee that future books will be better, or that they are indeed going to release new ones for every faction.


That’s true, but we should wait to find out before jumping the gun and calling for nerfs. It’s also not entirely true that codex releases don’t follow an upward curve, some armies always get a good, top tier one.

If this is what the marine one is like then the next Eldar one is going to come with a free fondue set for all the cheese and I’d rather not prematurely nerf marines before that one comes out.
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#57
Charlo

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The codex releases have not always been on an upward curve. There's no guarantee that future books will be better, or that they are indeed going to release new ones for every faction.

 

You're a funny one Ishagu!


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#58
Aothaine

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As Emperorpants said above, I think it's hard to even make a fluffy, "casual" army for IH that's not outrageously strong.  For me, I think that's the difference between this codex and say Eldar or CSM, or many others.  It just seems like it's "THE BEST, period" and that's it, and that rubs people the wrong way, both IH players and non-IH players.

 

Fair enough. I disagree with you about IH being the best though. People just need time to adapt and IH will find a comfortable place. I also don't think IH are better than Ultramarines. They are good for sure. But not better than the boys in blue. They just focus on different units. Don't forget that Ultramarines Aggressors can move and shoot as if they didn't move at all. That is silly. No penalty on moving and firing Heavy Weapons is nice. But it is not as nice as double-tapping bolter aggressors every damned turn starting on 2nd turn.

 

"I'm sorry did you say you have three units of six bolter aggressors?" *proceeds to flip table*

 

Each bolter aggressor, just in case you didn't know, shoots 12+2D6 bolter profile shots if it did not move. If you get to fire with all 18 that is 216+36D6 bolter profile shots. This is insane! All while on the move. You take Bobby-G surround him with three of these squads and three apothecaries then fill out the rest of your army with anti-armor. This is going to shred everything from hordes to vehicles. Sure it is expensive. But you have amazing units to back it up now. Eliminators, Executioners, etc.

 

Thats a niftty relic you have there IH. Ohhh it reduces the dmg to 1? *proceeds to laugh*.

 

The real limiting factor here is that people usually only test with the models they have. This is an expensive game/hobby. So it is pretty rare to come across a fully optimized list as people don't have enough time to test out different ideas. A new book comes out and people build lists off of 1-2 combos that someone finds on the internet, but there could be a much better build that people won't find out until after the codex has been out for awhile. It happens.

 

I agree that they feel really strong right now. But so many things felt this way until the meta shifted. 

 

Edit: I want to make sure that everyone knows that I think the IH Supplement is very powerful. I just don't think that it deserves the hate it is getting right now. Space Marines in general have been so lack-luster for so long that I'm happy they are starting to play like the fluff says they should play. Also, my IH army will be build around scouts and land speeder storms. 


Edited by Aothaine, 14 October 2019 - 07:36 PM.

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#59
Ishagu

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Well, aside from Sisters what other codex are people expecting this year? They won't be releasing them at the same pace even if they do plan on a version 2.0 for every faction.

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#60
Iron Father Ferrum

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Well, aside from Sisters what other codex are people expecting this year? They won't be releasing them at the same pace even if they do plan on a version 2.0 for every faction.


"This year" constitutes, what, about 2.5 months? Oh no, whatever shall we do?!?

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#61
Ishagu

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Lol I get the distinctive impression some of you might not have come across Iron Hands lists. Oh well.
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#62
quasistellar

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Let's not forget that until recently, the space marine statline wasn't something that tournament players were maximizing against.

 

Also, flyers just straight up need an adjustment across the board.  IDK what the solution is to them.  Any time they get remotely points efficient they get spammed like crazy.


Edited by quasistellar, 14 October 2019 - 07:37 PM.

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#63
Azekai

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I do love Iron Hands! They were my first 40k army and I still have a soft spot for them. But I don't buy the "Iron Hands have sucked for so long they deserve to be OP" line of thinking.

I don't think the 'wait and see' approach is warranted, either. I don't know what kind of proof you guys need before a hotfix is issued. Suddenly the Iron Hands chapter tops all the charts? I doubt those winning players just suddenly became tactical masterminds. The supremacy of the Iron Hands makes competitive 40k a farce.

At the same time, the way that Iron Hands dominate makes for a particularly unappealing game at the casual level too. "Just ignore the unkillable dreadnoughts" is about as fun as "just ignore the unkillable deathstars of 7th." Being able to interact with your opponents is important. Having any unit be able to hurt any other unit (even if the attacks are relatively ineffective) is a cornerstone of 8th. The IH violate that maxim and it does not improve the game.
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#64
helterskelter

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Lol I get the distinctive impression some of you might not have come across Iron Hands lists. Oh well.


Or you could be a bit more constructive? Space marines are doing great this edition you should be happy
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#65
Iron Father Ferrum

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I do love Iron Hands! They were my first 40k army and I still have a soft spot for them. But I don't buy the "Iron Hands have sucked for so long they deserve to be OP" line of thinking.

I don't think the 'wait and see' approach is warranted, either. I don't know what kind of proof you guys need before a hotfix is issued. Suddenly the Iron Hands chapter tops all the charts? I doubt those winning players just suddenly became tactical masterminds. The supremacy of the Iron Hands makes competitive 40k a farce.

At the same time, the way that Iron Hands dominate makes for a particularly unappealing game at the casual level too. "Just ignore the unkillable dreadnoughts" is about as fun as "just ignore the unkillable deathstars of 7th." Being able to interact with your opponents is important. Having any unit be able to hurt any other unit (even if the attacks are relatively ineffective) is a cornerstone of 8th. The IH violate that maxim and it does not improve the game.

Remember when C:SM were the first codex to drop in 8th Editio, and Codex Marine players were wiping the walls with Index players?

Every army is getting a new treatment.

Edited by Iron Father Ferrum, 14 October 2019 - 07:47 PM.

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#66
MARK0SIAN

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I do love Iron Hands! They were my first 40k army and I still have a soft spot for them. But I don't buy the "Iron Hands have sucked for so long they deserve to be OP" line of thinking.

I don't think the 'wait and see' approach is warranted, either. I don't know what kind of proof you guys need before a hotfix is issued. Suddenly the Iron Hands chapter tops all the charts? I doubt those winning players just suddenly became tactical masterminds. The supremacy of the Iron Hands makes competitive 40k a farce.

At the same time, the way that Iron Hands dominate makes for a particularly unappealing game at the casual level too. "Just ignore the unkillable dreadnoughts" is about as fun as "just ignore the unkillable deathstars of 7th." Being able to interact with your opponents is important. Having any unit be able to hurt any other unit (even if the attacks are relatively ineffective) is a cornerstone of 8th. The IH violate that maxim and it does not improve the game.


I don’t think anyone is denying the iron hands are very powerful now, a lot more powerful than some other armies. But the point of wait and see is this:

What if every army is going to get similar treatment? Suddenly we’ve already nerfed Iron hands and now they can’t compete with the other armies when they get their new dex.

Iron Hands (and other marines) are on version 8.2 whilst everyone else is still on 8.1 so it's not at all surprising that they’re top tier.

We just don’t have enough of the picture yet to be even handed with the balance so I would rather leave them strong and dial them back later than nerf them now and wait in hope for GW to them bring them back up to par.

GW have shown they’re very good at handing out the nerfs but a lot less effective at bringing sub par units/armies up to scratch, just ask the Grey Knights.

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#67
Lexington

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Every army is getting a new treatment.


This sentiment seems to be popular in the thread, but aside from theories loosely based on past experience, I don’t see any particular evidence that it’s happening.
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#68
MeltaRange

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I actually love the fluff of the Iron Hands, and hate to complain about them. I will admit that MOST of my bitterness towards Iron Hands right now is that it's so obnoxiously easy to point and click your way to victory that it makes having a casual game against them less fun. 
 
Second to that, I think it's ridiculous that they also got some of the best utility stuff like 'Mnemonic Auto-Savant', 'Tempered Helm', and 'Soul of Iron' to name just a few.  These are unbelievably good things for an army that already has the best doctrine in Calculated Fury, 3 parts (vs 2 for most others) to their Chapter Tactic, AND the best survivability. I honestly would have been totally fine with this if they were just really hard to kill and trudged forward griding it out, but giving them those game winning utility powers on top really annoys me. That and having the best Land Speeders and Flyers, while White Scars got the shaft with those units. I'm really annoyed by that.

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#69
Aothaine

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That and having the best Land Speeders and Flyers, while White Scars got the shaft with those units. I'm really annoyed by that.

 

This is a fair argument until we see more assault primaris and primaris bikers. Once we get those, and we will, people will just hop right over to bandwagon on the White Scars again. The White Scars are a vision of the future that I think most people are ignoring. There will be assault focused Primaris and Biker Primaris in the future that are going to cause all sorts of meta shifts. Have to remember Blood Angels will be coming out in 2020 and so with Dark Angels. I don't really count Space Wolves because they are unique snow flakes and get all sorts of special and cool units.



#70
Sete

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They should not. Let them shine. ;)

Until Tau gets the "omae wa mou shindeiru" strat lol

Edited by Sete, 14 October 2019 - 08:32 PM.

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#71
helterskelter

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They should not. Let them shine. ;)

Until Tau gets the "omae wa mou shindeiru" strat lol


Nani??
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#72
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#73
Zephaniah Adriyen

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Lol I get the distinctive impression some of you might not have come across Iron Hands lists. Oh well.

I got beat down by Iron Hands the other day. I'm still not calling for nerfs just yet.


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#74
Ishagu

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Until I see evidence of a grand codex re-work for every faction I'm not going to assume anything. There is no evidence whatsoever that this new codex is ushering a new era of books. The Astartes were a special case due to the high number of units they got AFTER the release of the 1st book, and the game testers have stated that GW were still finding their feet in terms of rules when the 1st books were written.

Chaos Astartes got a codex release just a few months ago too, they won't be getting a new one for over a year at the absolute very least.

We'll likely see more campaigns in future introducing new units and rules, and perhaps sub-faction specific supplaments, but I do expect some more codex releases in the future for the likes of Grey Knights and some other low performing armies.

Iron Hands are not balanced correctly with the rest of the chapters, and we're already seeing top players like Mike Porter jump ship to them. Their dominance in recent tournaments has been near total - we're taking about multiple large events, some with triple digit participation. I'll link some screen grabs from BCP to illustrate the point.

Remember what I said: It's perfectly fine for Iron Hands to be the best chapter, but the gap between other chapters and other armies shouldn't be this wide.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Ishagu, 14 October 2019 - 09:40 PM.

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#75
Medjugorje

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Sometimes I wonder how ...

 

 

 

Even if there used to be OP Codex releases like GK in 5th edition or Chaos 3.5, Ynnari in 7th edition... 

 

This times were absolutly stupid and it was a promise that "nu gw" want a balancing.

And that argument we just have to wait 6 month... censored.gif - that a half year, 150 days with about 10 tournements in this time period with this stupid meta^^ SORRY... NO


Edited by Medjugorje, 14 October 2019 - 09:11 PM.

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