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Considering a Combination for Mars of Skorpius and Knights?


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#1
Prot

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My first question is....

 

if you're taking Armigers, how many of you are using Warglaives?

 

This is my plan to compensate for my recent frustrations:

 

Skorpius x 3 for indirect (to compensate for SLOW units)

 

Cawls 9" aura to help. 

 

Knights (not to be controversial but... I'm thinking) Preceptor, Warglaive, Helverin, to keep the gribblies away from me.

 

 

 

So first question is: The Knights. Has anyone aside from me used this combo? Bad or good thoughts on this?

 

Second question is: Troops. I want them to mean something, but not be gobbled up by NuMarines. I'm thinking a Dual Battalion and using Kataphron Breachers. Should I ditch that and just go with Ranger/Vanguard.

 

I don't know if I can fit in shooty Kastelans but I imagine most people would do so if they were in Mars Forgeworld with Cawl? How important do you guys find the Robots double shooting? Anyone having success with Fisty Bots?

 

 


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#2
MajorNese

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Warglaives have served me well so far - but mostly as a bullet magnet. They run at the enemy line and get targeted by every AT around, which in turn ignore my AdMech vehicles.

 

Helverins are nice against 3W stuff and T7, but we have enough AT already I think.

 

Moirax are what I intend to try next - the lightning locks should do the same as dakkabots, just extremely mobile and shooty without need for CP or Cawl.


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#3
Prot

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Unfortunately I don't have Moirax.

 

What I'm really wondering is what I need to push back in competitive play enough to make the firebase work. I agree the Warglaives attract attention, but I wanted to get away from using a squad of Dunecrawlers by using the Knights. My hope is this tri will be enough, so I have enough points to hit hard with the other units.


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#4
Focslain

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I've used a Warden/helverin/warglaive combo to great effect. For the preceptor it should be a little better since it buffs armigars.

 

Basically use the warglaive as a front assault, the helverin as fire support and the questoris as support to either.

 

Even at 750 pts I've taken out forces much larger. Most recently board wiping a 1K GSC force with only minor damage.

 

What house are you looking at? Also I'd suggest Ion Bulwark, the relic depends on what your Preceptor has.


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A challenge is a challenge till it is beaten, then it is a victory.
The greater the challenge the greater the victory, so I challenge the impossible.

 
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#5
Gaz1858

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I find the Shooty bots with Cawl to be an excellent unit. The enemy fear them massively and will need to put firepower that would otherwise be directed at your Knights into the bots. In addition if you have about 4 or 5 of them you should be able to take down a Knight using Wrath of Mars (works out about 21 wounds with 4 and 27 with 5)

 

For troops I personally stick with Rangers/Vanguard. I use them as a screen, as Objective grabbers in Duneriders or as Engineers in ITC. For 108 you get 5 Rangers in a Dunerider. Only 18 points more than 3 Breachers.


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#6
Black_Knight

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From what I heard a while back is that Preceptors are worth it once you have four or more mini-knights so there is no shame in taking them if you have lots of squires.

 

I would suggest the bots because the biggest problem I see for Helverins is that they suffer when it comes to large amounts of chaff, so either those are an absolute :cuss ton of vanguard.


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#7
Prot

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I’ve enjoyed the comments and I’m going to try one more experiment. After thinking about these comments and considering how tough my meta is, and wanting to continue using Mars ( yes I agree Stygies is a better competitive choice), I’ve made a decision on a few things.

1. I will use Cawl still ( even though he’s due for a tweak with how auras work now- but that’s a whole other topic).

1B. Since Cawl is in, and so is Mars, I agree with you guys, I have to get.... hopefully 4 Dakka bots in the list. It’s critical to get something out of Wrath of Mars in this army. How do I fit them in? I don’t know.

2. Troops. I don’t see a huge selling point of Kataphron Breachers in this army at this time. You’ve convinced me I can benefit more from (perhaps a dual bat) Skitarii Vanguard and Rangers. In fact perhaps the Vanguard in a new transport as mentioned.

3 Knights. I’ll use what I have painted.... the Preceptor, and instead of the Helverin, I will use 2 Warglaives. This will be the main close combat piece of the army so it has to hit hard.

4. I think I have to use the Assassin Strat. Just too many holes in the army.

Concerns:

I’m terrified of massed Orks and GSC in particular which just annihilates this army. New marines are probably an upgrade in nearly every way to AdMech. I’ll use two indirect firing Skorpius’ to help that out. And the WoM Dakka bots will have to be my answer to the massive damage reduction of Iron Hands and SM Dreadnoughts in general.

I have to see if I can fit this into 2 k Lol

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#8
Black_Knight

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What is your main problem with GSC? Is it the speed that they close the gap or the character elimination, having cawl should help with that and the Preceptor will last longer than a Tech-Priest.

 

Ever since the price cuts I see a lot of lists that involve Breachers but I have to admit I haven't looked at them yet.


Edited by Black_Knight, 11 October 2019 - 06:34 AM.

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#9
Gaz1858

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I’ve enjoyed the comments and I’m going to try one more experiment. After thinking about these comments and considering how tough my meta is, and wanting to continue using Mars ( yes I agree Stygies is a better competitive choice), I’ve made a decision on a few things.

1. I will use Cawl still ( even though he’s due for a tweak with how auras work now- but that’s a whole other topic).

1B. Since Cawl is in, and so is Mars, I agree with you guys, I have to get.... hopefully 4 Dakka bots in the list. It’s critical to get something out of Wrath of Mars in this army. How do I fit them in? I don’t know.

2. Troops. I don’t see a huge selling point of Kataphron Breachers in this army at this time. You’ve convinced me I can benefit more from (perhaps a dual bat) Skitarii Vanguard and Rangers. In fact perhaps the Vanguard in a new transport as mentioned.

3 Knights. I’ll use what I have painted.... the Preceptor, and instead of the Helverin, I will use 2 Warglaives. This will be the main close combat piece of the army so it has to hit hard.

4. I think I have to use the Assassin Strat. Just too many holes in the army.

Concerns:

I’m terrified of massed Orks and GSC in particular which just annihilates this army. New marines are probably an upgrade in nearly every way to AdMech. I’ll use two indirect firing Skorpius’ to help that out. And the WoM Dakka bots will have to be my answer to the massive damage reduction of Iron Hands and SM Dreadnoughts in general.

I have to see if I can fit this into 2 k Lol


Looking forward to a match report!

Im taking pure Admech to a team tourney soon
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#10
Focslain

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Using two Warglaives isn't a bad idea if your worried about hordes, the warglaives sweep attack is better suited to dealing with a large group and at least then it does more damage in melee then a helverin will do.

 

Having the Preceptor will buff them a bit and it's a decent core. Flank march them, dig in and have fun.


A challenge is a challenge till it is beaten, then it is a victory.
The greater the challenge the greater the victory, so I challenge the impossible.

 
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#11
Prot

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What is your main problem with GSC? Is it the speed that they close the gap or the character elimination, having cawl should help with that and the Preceptor will last longer than a Tech-Priest.

 

Ever since the price cuts I see a lot of lists that involve Breachers but I have to admit I haven't looked at them yet.

 

 

A lot of armies struggle with GSC. It's kind of like playing against an army that gets to break the rules. My AdMech by far have the most brutal match up with them. Often when I see Admech did well at a tournament, I instantly look for match ups and more often than not, the high place AdMech rarely face tournament quality GSC.

 

The problem is multi fold and hits a lot of weak points this army has. No fly. No retreat/shoot mechansim. No counter assault punch. Low access to quality 'Auspex Scan' type mechanisms. Blocky large foot print vehicles, easy to box in. Lower quality CC characters. No Psychic Defense. VERY easy to shut down Overwatch. They -can- be extremely anti-character. A last major issue is no push back on deep strike. You'll notice most marine players (with less to fear from GSC than Admech do) include a row of Infiltrators for this very reason.

 

The list goes on.... mechanically it works like this: 

-Give GSC first turn if you have the option (you will have almost nothing to shoot at.) Most GSC lists will force you to go first. They want you to spread out... this is game over if you do in many instances.

- Other than that it gets list specific. But overall you can't buffer well enough with the price of Vanguard/Rangers. Long story short you will find them starting inside 6", and hitting you with explosives and a ghetto "Vets of the Long War" type strat that can (if lucky) take down a Knight a turn. The other strat allows them to deploy, then move D6 closer. This is often started by a massive drill/laser squad of Conscript type acolytes which while easily shot, are almost guaranteed to tie up multiple squads in CC. Next turn expect Muscle Beach squad. These guys are super hard to get rid of. VERY resilient and I've taken many a stop sign to the forehead on these guys. They are brutal in waves on T2-3.

- Usually the Patriarch is last to come in. He'll keep the gribblies together, protect psykers, etc. He can't be overwatched (most games) he's almost an automatic to make assault. 

 

- By mid game half the army can't shoot, or hasn't had anything to shoot at.. The rest is in CC, or trying desperately to grab key objectives (Maelstrom).

 

I'd put GSC as the top of my worst match ups.

 

 

Using two Warglaives isn't a bad idea if your worried about hordes, the warglaives sweep attack is better suited to dealing with a large group and at least then it does more damage in melee then a helverin will do.

 

Having the Preceptor will buff them a bit and it's a decent core. Flank march them, dig in and have fun.

 

I have flipped between the two. They're both good units I think... it seems more about what  your needs are. Since my list is so susceptible to speed/cc, I think I should try dual Warglaives.

 

I'm still trying to make this all fit in 2K and still have the Mars part have some punch! 


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#12
Prot

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Okay so based on this rather involved conversation I've made the following list. 

 

I cannot get my new Fulgurite Priests in it. And I can't get a 4th Dakka bot in it, and it's 1 point over. I'm not too happy with how lethargic the troops are configured, but it's a dual Battalion with Knights at least.

 

 
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [62 PL, 3CP, 1,080pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Detachment CP [5CP]
 
Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars
 
Operative Requisition Sanctioned [-2CP, 85pts]
 
+ HQ +
 
Belisarius Cawl [13 PL, 190pts]: Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mars): Static Psalm-Code
 
Daedalosus [3 PL, 50pts]
 
+ Troops +
 
Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 50pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 3x Skitarii Ranger
. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus
 
Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
 
Skitarii Vanguards [4 PL, 40pts]
. 4x Skitarii Vanguard
. Vanguard Alpha: Radium Carbine
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
Kastelan Robots [18 PL, 330pts]
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. Kastelan Robot: Heavy Phosphor Blaster
. . Two Heavy Phosphor Blasters: 2x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
 
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
 
Skorpius Disintegrator [6 PL, 111pts]: Belleros Energy Cannon, 3x Cognis Heavy Stubber
 
+ Dedicated Transport +
 
Skorpius Dunerider [4 PL, 73pts]: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber, Twin Cognis Heavy Stubber
 
++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [41 PL, -1CP, 741pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
 
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Taranis
 
+ Lord of War +
 
Armiger Helverins
 
Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 162pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber
 
Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 162pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy Stubber
 
Knight Preceptor [23 PL, 417pts]: Character (Heirloom of the House), Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord
 
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [18 PL, 180pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Forge World Choice
. Forge World: Mars
 
+ HQ +
 
Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]
 
Tech-Priest Enginseer [3 PL, 30pts]
 
+ Troops +
 
Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger
 
Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 50pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 3x Skitarii Ranger
. Skitarii Ranger (Transuranic Arquebus): Transuranic Arquebus
 
Skitarii Rangers [4 PL, 35pts]
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic Rifle
. 4x Skitarii Ranger
 
++ Total: [121 PL, 2CP, 2,001pts] ++
 
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#13
Black_Knight

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2001! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

In all seriousness, what is that Helverins part with the knights, a single one?


Edited by Black_Knight, 17 October 2019 - 10:15 AM.

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#14
Prot

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Lol. Bloody point is the death of me.

The knights are Preceptor plus two Warglaives to get the 3cp. And the house rules.

I ended up playing against Genestealer cult last night with my Ultramarines. I’m telling you I have no clue how AdMech can beat that.

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#15
Xisor

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There's not some utility in have 60 Vanguard on hand for weight of fire?

#16
Black_Knight

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Can you afford to take just one battalion and some other detachment so you can take less troops?


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