Assault Centurions: Worth it With Master of Ambish?

[gmaleron]

Hey everyone, been thinking of adding some Centurions to my army and while debating between Devastator or Assault Centurions an idea popped into my head to find a way to justify taking the Assault variant. Utilizing the Assault Centurions with the master of Ambush warlord trait would solve a lot of the issues with them, getting them right up in the enemy's Grill and utilizing their short-range weapons to the best of their ability. Anyone done this?

[MajorNese]

While it looks good on paper, I fear it will be extremely hit-or-miss.

If you have the first turn, and your opponent parks something big right at the edge of the deployment zone, they will tear that target a new "exhaust port" through the engine compartment.

Which works exactly once against a certain opponent, then they know the trick and how to prevent it from hitting more than chaff.

 

If you don't have first turn, the centurions will both be in range of everything on your opponent's turn, and will probably be outside of reliable charge range on your turn.

4" move is already a 5" charge to the deployment zone edge (if you're going first), but once that target unit moves away, even basic, non-advancing infantry will prolong this to a 11" charge.

In the end, it would be a bullet sponge as well as a distraction (no one wants to be near them, giving you an edge in board control), but not the killer unit you intended.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Assault centurions are so point efficient atm it almost doesnt matter what you do with them.  At 156 points for 12 wounds at t5 with a 2+ save, they will be at least playable.  For comparisons sake, a tactical marine costs 12 points for a single wound model with a bolter/bolt pistol, and grenades.  Assault centurions are only 1 additional point per wound but are tougher, have a better save, have 2 extra attacks, thunder hammer equivalent close combat weapons (even better), flamers, and hurricane bolters.    If tactical marines had an upgrade giving those benefits for 1 point im sure you would pay it.   

 

It seems like a no brainer to me.  In fact I have put my money where my mouth is and am painting up 6 as we speak.    

While it looks good on paper, I fear it will be extremely hit-or-miss.

If you have the first turn, and your opponent parks something big right at the edge of the deployment zone, they will tear that target a new "exhaust port" through the engine compartment.

Which works exactly once against a certain opponent, then they know the trick and how to prevent it from hitting more than chaff.

 

If you don't have first turn, the centurions will both be in range of everything on your opponent's turn, and will probably be outside of reliable charge range on your turn.

4" move is already a 5" charge to the deployment zone edge (if you're going first), but once that target unit moves away, even basic, non-advancing infantry will prolong this to a 11" charge.

In the end, it would be a bullet sponge as well as a distraction (no one wants to be near them, giving you an edge in board control), but not the killer unit you intended.

I think that the real value is from the deep strike stratagem not MoA which is 1st turn dependent.  

[Dracos]

Chaplain with MoA. If you don’t have first turn then stick them in the Shadows. You should know before Deployment starts if you’re going first or not barring a Seize. If it happens suck it up and go to Plan B.

 

Actually Plan B should be Plan A but that’s a strategic discussion of always plan for having to go second and adjusting to go first if you’re lucky.

[faithonwings]

basicilly my plan with rapors. Take Ilias from FW for his +1 to advance and charge bubble and stack it with the succesor traits +1 to advance and charge. I would put them in reserve any day. Problem is their will be to much chaff between them en and a good target for them to charge something worth their cost in t1. charging t2 gives you the option to kill a lot of their chaff en pull of charge. anyway.. just my 2 cents

 

O, and I plan of having 2 units of 4 and at least one unit of agressors to back them up.

Edited October 11, 2019 by faithonwings

[ShinyRhino]

Assault Centurions are good even without deepstrike tools, because of hurricane bolters. 36 shots at any range, combined with Tactical Doctrine, mulches infantry.

With our Chapter Tactics, they are exceedingly durable.

 

Mine have been a fixture in my army for a long time now.

[Bluflash]

I used a squad of 4x assault cents going second last week, and while the hurricane bolters did solid work, I could never get them into melee.
Today I've dropped a squad of Eliminators (blasphemy, i know) to upgrade them to Grav Dev Cents. Same huricane bolters, and with a 24" fully effective range and the gravitic amplification strat they should hit plenty hard.

Grav Cents with a Chapter Master for full re-rolls and the amplification strat makes each grav cannon as effective as 3, BS3+ Las-cannons. We'll see how it goes, but I'm very excited to drop 12 las-cannons on the front line, with 8 more on my Contemptor Mortis in the back line.

[duz_]

Assault centurions are so point efficient atm it almost doesnt matter what you do with them. At 156 points for 12 wounds at t5 with a 2+ save, they will be at least playable.

 

 

Another comparison is 4x Bullgryns with shield and maul are 156pts and they're still formidable on the table

Admittedly slight faster but enough to draw attention from your opponent and not a big deal if you lose them

And that's before invul shenanigans

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Assault centurions are so point efficient atm it almost doesnt matter what you do with them. At 156 points for 12 wounds at t5 with a 2+ save, they will be at least playable.

 

Another comparison is 4x Bullgryns with shield and maul are 156pts and they're still formidable on the table

Admittedly slight faster but enough to draw attention from your opponent and not a big deal if you lose them

And that's before invul shenanigans

 

I run Bullgryns in all my guard lists too and I have to say that Centurions are superior in every way.  I'd even be happy to just have 2 units of 3 landing on terrain just for fire support.  I'd hate to have to dig them out.

[Brom MKIV]

Both are aggressively costed in RG due to no transport tax. My main issue with the assault variant and actually the models in general is how bad they look. The drills especially are just silly. I'd have to convert them. At the devs have fairly respectable looking weapons.

[Dracos]

I totally agree the siege drills look ridiculous. I've been looking for a Thunder Hammer of the right size or beefing up the fist with plasticard to take on the look the new Imperial Fist character has.

 

Show of hands of anyone who doesn't think Assault Centurions go up in points come this years Chapter Approved? They are so hot right now I'm betting Aggressors get a total pass.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I totally agree the siege drills look ridiculous. I've been looking for a Thunder Hammer of the right size or beefing up the fist with plasticard to take on the look the new Imperial Fist character has.

 

Show of hands of anyone who doesn't think Assault Centurions go up in points come this years Chapter Approved? They are so hot right now I'm betting Aggressors get a total pass.

I suspect neither to get effected in CA

[Bluflash]

I got in two games last night using Dev Cents, and they have become a permanent change to my list.

 

They did a ton of damage to many targets, with very limited manouverability issues. They also ate a ton of firepower.

 

I highly recommend you try them in place of assault cents.

[gmaleron]

I got in two games last night using Dev Cents, and they have become a permanent change to my list.

They did a ton of damage to many targets, with very limited manouverability issues. They also ate a ton of firepower.

I highly recommend you try them in place of assault cents.

I'm assuming you used Grav and Bolters? And I won't argue that their Firepower negates their maneuverability issues however I am in desperate need of some more anti-armor especially since my store almost everybody runs vehicle / flyer heavy lists. Why I was looking at the assault variants with melta guns

[Bluflash]

One Grav Cannon with CM Re-rolls and the Strat is the same effective damage output at 3x BS 3+ Las-Cannons.
My squad of 4 was basically 12 las-cannons plus 48 Bolter shots.

The Cents plus my 2x Contemptor Mortis dropped a chaos knight first turn. 20 damage is the expected value of the grav and las against a 4++ knight, without factoring in the bolters.

Trying to use Assault Cents against vehicles and flyers is losing proposition. Everything is faster than you are, so if you go second its very hard to get them into combat.

[gmaleron]

One Grav Cannon with CM Re-rolls and the Strat is the same effective damage output at 3x BS 3+ Las-Cannons.

My squad of 4 was basically 12 las-cannons plus 48 Bolter shots.

The Cents plus my 2x Contemptor Mortis dropped a chaos knight first turn. 20 damage is the expected value of the grav and las against a 4++ knight, without factoring in the bolters.

Trying to use Assault Cents against vehicles and flyers is losing proposition. Everything is faster than you are, so if you go second its very hard to get them into combat.

Have you found 4 to be the perfect number of Centurions to take or do you think ypu could get away with 3?

[superwill]

One Grav Cannon with CM Re-rolls and the Strat is the same effective damage output at 3x BS 3+ Las-Cannons.

My squad of 4 was basically 12 las-cannons plus 48 Bolter shots.

 

The Cents plus my 2x Contemptor Mortis dropped a chaos knight first turn. 20 damage is the expected value of the grav and las against a 4++ knight, without factoring in the bolters.

 

Trying to use Assault Cents against vehicles and flyers is losing proposition. Everything is faster than you are, so if you go second its very hard to get them into combat.

 

If those cents were assault cents and made it into combat, they would be dropping that knight without any need for help from the mortis'. We can manage a 7" rerollable charge if we are successors, and assaults centurions are a ridiculously brutal prospect once they make it in. Without the charge bonuses (and the +3" range flamers) I agree that it's risky to just DS them and hope for the best. Then again, I refuse to use MoA because of the gambling factor and prefer to stick with SftS instead.

 

As for the grav-cents, I like them and started with running them. Because there are successor tactics that work so well for ass-cents I've switched out, but there's another reason too. Regular grav-devs. For 150 points you can get a squad with 4 grav-cannons and a cherub. I throw them in a DP with another unit (personally I'm playing with plasma vets atm, but I've experimented with a wide variety of options, including sending characters in this way and saving hundreds of points from my DS reserve limit).

 

The comparison which I think is most flattering to the centurions is:

 

3 Grav-Cents - 210 points:

 - second turn arrival if DSing

 - 12 grav shots at bs3

 - comes with 3 hurricane bolters

 - tankier

 

5 Regular devs w. 4 gravs and cherub- 215 points, includes drop pod:

 - first turn arrival

 - saves a CP on SfTS.

 - 8 grav shots at bs3, 12 more at bs 4 (for one turn, using the cherub)

 - also buys a pod, which can be used for other units and even objective capping

 - doesn't count towards your 50% reserve limit

 

Really, I think if you're using the grav-strat (and you're around some kind of chapter master auras) you'd rather the 20 shots than the 12. And things only look worse for the centurions if you're using MoA I reckon, because either way you're counting on either going first or deploying them out of sight. If you're going first and MoA them in, then that favours the Devs even more because they're not at -1 to hit. And if you're going MoA over SftS then you also didn't need to buy the drop pod, making it 150 points vs 210, with the 150 points having about double the grav output (8 BS2 gravs, 12 BS3 gravs) ...

 

I guess what I'm saying is, I like the grav cents, but just wonder whether that role can be better filled elsewhere. Ass-cents on the other hand are epic horde-clear AND can drop a knight single-handedly, and we don't have too many other units quite like that.

Edited October 25, 2019 by superwill

[Bluflash]

 

One Grav Cannon with CM Re-rolls and the Strat is the same effective damage output at 3x BS 3+ Las-Cannons.

My squad of 4 was basically 12 las-cannons plus 48 Bolter shots.

The Cents plus my 2x Contemptor Mortis dropped a chaos knight first turn. 20 damage is the expected value of the grav and las against a 4++ knight, without factoring in the bolters.

Trying to use Assault Cents against vehicles and flyers is losing proposition. Everything is faster than you are, so if you go second its very hard to get them into combat.

Have you found 4 to be the perfect number of Centurions to take or do you think ypu could get away with 3?

 

 

4 is where my list settles on, points wise, and It's been very effective so far.  Its the highest it can go and still be only worth 2 points in gang busters.

 

3 should work, but since you are likely using CM and the strat to beef them up, each extra unit is really multiplied. I'd encourage you to test it at 3 and see if the unit is still both durable enough and lethal enough to have a big impact.

 

 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Here's the thing with unit size:

 

Bigger squads is simply better, and that is the result of strategem use. Gravitic Amplification, Transhuman Physiology, and SFTS/MoA get the most return out of a larger blob of 6 than say two units of 3. They can divide fire so you don't waste firepower, and getting maximum return on your CP is the most economical route.

 

It really comes down to a question of points and space.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

One Grav Cannon with CM Re-rolls and the Strat is the same effective damage output at 3x BS 3+ Las-Cannons.

My squad of 4 was basically 12 las-cannons plus 48 Bolter shots.

The Cents plus my 2x Contemptor Mortis dropped a chaos knight first turn. 20 damage is the expected value of the grav and las against a 4++ knight, without factoring in the bolters.

Trying to use Assault Cents against vehicles and flyers is losing proposition. Everything is faster than you are, so if you go second its very hard to get them into combat.

Have you found 4 to be the perfect number of Centurions to take or do you think ypu could get away with 3?

4 is where my list settles on, points wise, and It's been very effective so far. Its the highest it can go and still be only worth 2 points in gang busters.

 

3 should work, but since you are likely using CM and the strat to beef them up, each extra unit is really multiplied. I'd encourage you to test it at 3 and see if the unit is still both durable enough and lethal enough to have a big impact.

 

That's a good point about gangbusters; they're the immediate target so my opponent always go for gangbusters and tend to get all the points in one turn.