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What rules would you like to see updated?

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#26
Putrid Choir

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Death guard do not get warptime, .

not entirely accurate. you can have a nurgle sorcerer on a palanquin of nurgle and they can take warp time. But does mean you have to use the index

And the index is only valid for how much longer? I thought I heard they were doing a legacy book or something eventually. I can't imagine that lasting forever. And I don't use or own the index. The Death guard CODEX does not have warptime haha. That should be more accurate.

#27
Putrid Choir

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Well I just said only make the DR for the mono bonus so they won't be able to get warptime that way. And I'll compare DG to whoever I want. IH are the closest loyalist counter part to the Death Guard and share similar rules with the FNP and move and shoot heavies without penalty. So that's why I was using them as an example.

And they will rework the other's traits. You can't tell me -1 LD or reroll morale is fair compared to any of the marine traits. So currently DG might be best chaos trait but who's to say after they redo the others it still is.


The point is you are comparing death guard to the most broken codex i think GW has ever produced. We should not be as strong as IH because its both boring to play and play against. However to be fair, it is not the 6+++ that makes them broken but more the unkillable leviathans etc.

We should play to the fluff....death guard always have +1T and "feel no pain" was a very fluffy rule for deathguard...hence why I think everything in a mono DG army should get it.

Ishagu said giving death guard DR and their legion trait on everything might be too powerful, I was just comparing DG to IH as that would not be "too powerful" compared to them. IH chapter is closest loyalist to DG.

How would you give the units +1T? And you realize you are agreeing with me? I've already said do that for the DG mono bonus.

#28
jgascoine011

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Well I just said only make the DR for the mono bonus so they won't be able to get warptime that way. And I'll compare DG to whoever I want. IH are the closest loyalist counter part to the Death Guard and share similar rules with the FNP and move and shoot heavies without penalty. So that's why I was using them as an example.

And they will rework the other's traits. You can't tell me -1 LD or reroll morale is fair compared to any of the marine traits. So currently DG might be best chaos trait but who's to say after they redo the others it still is.


The point is you are comparing death guard to the most broken codex i think GW has ever produced. We should not be as strong as IH because its both boring to play and play against. However to be fair, it is not the 6+++ that makes them broken but more the unkillable leviathans etc.

We should play to the fluff....death guard always have +1T and "feel no pain" was a very fluffy rule for deathguard...hence why I think everything in a mono DG army should get it.

Ishagu said giving death guard DR and their legion trait on everything might be too powerful, I was just comparing DG to IH as that would not be "too powerful" compared to them. IH chapter is closest loyalist to DG.

How would you give the units +1T? And you realize you are agreeing with me? I've already said do that for the DG mono bonus.

 

 

Yes i do agree with you. +1T and DR on everything would not be broken...strong yes, but not broken. 

Everything in a mono DG army, that does not already have DR, should get +1T and DR.

Also plague marines should be 2W and a 4+++

 

The way i see the mono gods playing out is

Khorne being a amazing at combat

Tzeentch being amazing at psychic 

Nurgle being very resiliant

Slaanesh being good at shooting, but having the best stratagems

 

While Deathguard are somewhat resiliant, their damage output is so poor that they are really struggling in the current meta



#29
Putrid Choir

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I think making plague marines 4+++ is too much, 2w is nice. Maybe only give +1T to the infantry (Lord's and sorcs). Giving helbrutes and predators +1T is too much. I wouldn't want to be the new IH. Having a predator with T8, DR and move and shoot heavies with no penalties would be ridiculous hahaha.

#30
Putrid Choir

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I've seen more rumors about cult marines going to 2W. That will be about the best update to DG we get out of psychic awakening. I still hope our trait goes legion wide eventually and maybe a mono army buff of DR to non DR units (even if just a baby 6+++ one). Time will tell. Chapter approved might drop some of the elite characters costs. Maybe Mortarion will get a points drop, 470pts for T7 18W is not great when compared to knights.

#31
TrawlingCleaner

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I've seen more rumors about cult marines going to 2W. That will be about the best update to DG we get out of psychic awakening. I still hope our trait goes legion wide eventually and maybe a mono army buff of DR to non DR units (even if just a baby 6+++ one). Time will tell. Chapter approved might drop some of the elite characters costs. Maybe Mortarion will get a points drop, 470pts for T7 18W is not great when compared to knights.


Pretty sure it's been confirmed that DG, TS renegades and BL are not getting anything in the Psychic Awakening book, it's only the legions in the CSM book outside of BL that are getting stuff which makes the most sense to me.

CA is definitely the place for rules and points changes and as someone new to Death Guard it'll be very interesting to see what we get. The codex is very striped back in comparison to other books but a lot of fun. Plague marines getting 2W is an interesting point to me and I'm not too sure whether it'll happen without a good few points increase. Compared to intercessors, as they are the closest 2W troops, they're 17ppm at T4, longer range weapons with access to doctrines and great Chapter tactics. PMs are 16ppm with longer rapid fire range, way more customisation, T5, DR and DttFE. I could see PM getting an extra wound but going up in points quite a bit. Currently IMO plague marines should go down to 15ppm as resilience wise they're the halfway house of old marines and Primaris.

Either way I'm really interested to see what happens

#32
Putrid Choir

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I've seen more rumors about cult marines going to 2W. That will be about the best update to DG we get out of psychic awakening. I still hope our trait goes legion wide eventually and maybe a mono army buff of DR to non DR units (even if just a baby 6+++ one). Time will tell. Chapter approved might drop some of the elite characters costs. Maybe Mortarion will get a points drop, 470pts for T7 18W is not great when compared to knights.

Pretty sure it's been confirmed that DG, TS renegades and BL are not getting anything in the Psychic Awakening book, it's only the legions in the CSM book outside of BL that are getting stuff which makes the most sense to me.

CA is definitely the place for rules and points changes and as someone new to Death Guard it'll be very interesting to see what we get. The codex is very striped back in comparison to other books but a lot of fun. Plague marines getting 2W is an interesting point to me and I'm not too sure whether it'll happen without a good few points increase. Compared to intercessors, as they are the closest 2W troops, they're 17ppm at T4, longer range weapons with access to doctrines and great Chapter tactics. PMs are 16ppm with longer rapid fire range, way more customisation, T5, DR and DttFE. I could see PM getting an extra wound but going up in points quite a bit. Currently IMO plague marines should go down to 15ppm as resilience wise they're the halfway house of old marines and Primaris.

Either way I'm really interested to see what happens

Plague marines have less range and movement then Primaris. They probably won't be getting a points increase, and even if they did it would be 1 point to match Primaris. And in the psychic awakening stuff they showed at the very beginning the death guard legion symbol, and GW said everything that they showed will get something. Now if that something was 2W to our basic troops then fine, but how can you say confirmed they are not getting anything along with thousand sons when they showed the legion symbols along with the rest?
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#33
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I've seen more rumors about cult marines going to 2W. That will be about the best update to DG we get out of psychic awakening. I still hope our trait goes legion wide eventually and maybe a mono army buff of DR to non DR units (even if just a baby 6+++ one). Time will tell. Chapter approved might drop some of the elite characters costs. Maybe Mortarion will get a points drop, 470pts for T7 18W is not great when compared to knights.

Pretty sure it's been confirmed that DG, TS renegades and BL are not getting anything in the Psychic Awakening book, it's only the legions in the CSM book outside of BL that are getting stuff which makes the most sense to me.

CA is definitely the place for rules and points changes and as someone new to Death Guard it'll be very interesting to see what we get. The codex is very striped back in comparison to other books but a lot of fun. Plague marines getting 2W is an interesting point to me and I'm not too sure whether it'll happen without a good few points increase. Compared to intercessors, as they are the closest 2W troops, they're 17ppm at T4, longer range weapons with access to doctrines and great Chapter tactics. PMs are 16ppm with longer rapid fire range, way more customisation, T5, DR and DttFE. I could see PM getting an extra wound but going up in points quite a bit. Currently IMO plague marines should go down to 15ppm as resilience wise they're the halfway house of old marines and Primaris.

Either way I'm really interested to see what happens

Plague marines have less range and movement then Primaris. They probably won't be getting a points increase, and even if they did it would be 1 point to match Primaris. And in the psychic awakening stuff they showed at the very beginning the death guard legion symbol, and GW said everything that they showed will get something. Now if that something was 2W to our basic troops then fine, but how can you say confirmed they are not getting anything along with thousand sons when they showed the legion symbols along with the rest?

 

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear: Death Guard are not getting anything from this next Psychic awakening book as only the legions I mentioned are confirmed for the next book. DG and TS will for sure get something but it may not be for a while yet and Chapter Approved should be this side of Christmas. Any rules changes and points drop will come before the extra rules/strats/relics/models that may come with Psychic Awakening and CA will likely reflect this, i.e DG may not get many points drops or many rules changes with CA because they may get something sizeable from a PA book. While Chapter approved was written about 6ish months ago, they still would have known what they would be chnaging for Psychic Awakening.

 

IMO if Plague marines go up a wound, they would need to go up in points too. While PM and Primaris would have their strengths and weaknesses, PM would be too cheap and frustrating for the amount they can do with strats and Psychic Support and how resilient they become. T5 with 2W at 17ppm is crazy good IMO


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#34
Ishagu

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A 2 wound model with a 5+ FNP is significantly more durable.

If you math it out, with two wounds you have a 50% chance to survive a wound from an over charged plasma after you have failed a save, as an example. Combine that with T5 negating the power of small arms.

At T5, 2 wounds and a 5+ FNP it would take 20 bolt rifle HITS with - 1 AP to remove a single plague marine, also.
Hence a 2 wound plague marine should be more costly than a Primaris marine, by a notable margin of 4-5 points at the least.

Edited by Ishagu, 11 November 2019 - 10:32 AM.

-~Ishagu~-


#35
TrawlingCleaner

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That's too much IMO, if they become too much, it'll be crippling for DG just like PA space marines are/were for the space marine factions. Much like the standard Chaos codex, DG don't have the liberty of having other viable troop choices to take en mass. Sure walkers and cultists are useful in a pinch but they're not the work horses that Plague marines are. I could be entirely wrong there as I've only played a couple of games but that seems to be the gist so far.

 

I'll be very interested to see what they do or don't do in Chapter approved



#36
Putrid Choir

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@TrawlingCleaner: Ah that makes more sense.

@Ishagu: I don't think 2W is asking for alot when I turn and look at Intercessors in an iron hand's army that get 6+ FNP, another -1ap on the stalker rifle (to a -3ap d2 troop weapon that costs 0 points), with the free reroll ones. I did the math on 5 Intercessors shooting at 5 plague marines doing just over 4w and the marines just under 1w back. Who cares if plague marines are sturdier if they can't fire back to save their lives. They can only take 2 special weapons per squad too. I bet they don't go up in cost and if they do maybe 1-2pts. That's if they even get the 2w. I don't think a loyalist marine player at this point has a leg to stand on about balance.

#37
Ishagu

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It's the combination of the T5 and the 5+++ that's the big difference.

I also agree that the Iron Hands are tuned a bit too high - too many core benefits through their CT+Doctrine combination, but GW have toned them down already.

-~Ishagu~-


#38
Putrid Choir

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Out of the 18 Legions they are supposed to be the most sturdy, not to mention they were possessed by nurgle which made them even more resilient. They are the slowest legion and have sub par offense. Why can't they be head and shoulders above the rest when it comes to toughest?

It's not just iron hands. Iron fists make certain bolter combos really good and my marine buddy who was beating me hand over foot prior to the codex is a salamanders player and now he's doing circles around me.

Im not opposed to a small increase but saying 4-5pts more than Intercessors is too much.

#39
jgascoine011

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A 2 wound model with a 5+ FNP is significantly more durable.

If you math it out, with two wounds you have a 50% chance to survive a wound from an over charged plasma after you have failed a save, as an example. Combine that with T5 negating the power of small arms.

At T5, 2 wounds and a 5+ FNP it would take 20 bolt rifle HITS with - 1 AP to remove a single plague marine, also.
Hence a 2 wound plague marine should be more costly than a Primaris marine, by a notable margin of 4-5 points at the least.

 

The difference is space marines in general just have many more options.

 

And even taking your example. 10 plague marines shooting back would be 20 shots (say 21 to make the maths easier), thats 14 hits, 7 wounds, so you kill 1 Intersessor. Thats assuming they dont have the cover save trait, which wouldnt even kill one.

 

Also, they can have far better board control with infilrating dreadnoughts, deepstrike denial, massive overwatch potential etc etc.

 

Their whole army, while maybe not as survivable are far more killy, and far more manourverable

 

I dont like it when people compare unit to unit, you should look at the codex as a whole.

Making plaguemarines 2W wound only be a start for making a deathguard codex not total garbage. I wound arguably say we are the weakest codex right now.

 

Just look at the PBC.

Its our only real long range shooting and it hits on 4+, Just how many armies is it useless against? Dark eldar, eldar, alpha legion, raven guard, admech, and even tyranids means its pretty much hitting anything on 5+ at a minimum, with a random number of shots.  At that point you are paying over 130 pts for something that may as well not have any guns.

Knights just laugh at us. Assuming you have 3 PBC and roll 6s for all number of shots, thats 9 hits. Say you have arch contaminator and get 8 wounds, thats 4 getting though the invun, doing what 8 wounds on average. Over 400 pts, with exceptional rolling is doing 8 wounds to a knight with a 4++.  In reality averages is meaning around 4-5 wounds.  We have no answer to it other than grenades with bigious, VOTLW and Arch Contaminator...yea good luck getting that to go off against a compitent opponent.

 

The foul blightspawn can be amazing but is very expensive for a very random unit

 

Terminators just suck in any semi competitve game. Oh they are increadibly hard to kill....but with M4, good luck trying to kill aything

 

Our best unit right now is probably the daemon prince


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#40
Dallas Drake

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Plague Marines getting 2W would be ideal as far as I’m concerned. It would make them play and feel much more like they’re supposed to and wouldn’t be as nearly OP as what marines can do. Right now 1W MEQs just don’t work. I personally think that what is wrong with Chaos right now is the MEQ. Think about it, why did GW introduce Primaris? 2W and better guns, they are just so much better. I’m still enjoying playing my DG but a quick read of the Chaos threads on here and almost any other site and it’s clear to see that something fundamental has to happen with CSM.
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#41
Bloody Legionnaire

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Not really an update, but I really wish GW had given Death Guard a Havoc type unit with a long range weapon. Is there a fluff justification for that I'm not familiar with? 30k DG were mostly infantry based.. no real restriction on the type of weapons those infantry carried. A Character that gave our Daemon Engines a -1 to hit would be nice as well. Oh, and lastly T5 across the board for all of our infantry units/characters.. Don't really understand the move that kept Chaos Lords and Sorcs at T4


Plague Marines getting 2W would be ideal as far as I’m concerned. It would make them play and feel much more like they’re supposed to and wouldn’t be as nearly OP as what marines can do. Right now 1W MEQs just don’t work. I personally think that what is wrong with Chaos right now is the MEQ. Think about it, why did GW introduce Primaris? 2W and better guns, they are just so much better. I’m still enjoying playing my DG but a quick read of the Chaos threads on here and almost any other site and it’s clear to see that something fundamental has to happen with CSM.

 

I think an increase in wounds would make their point cost go up and I'm not sure I like that... 

Yes, Primaris Marines are better, but Plague Marines are MEQ as you point it out, and probably the best MEQ in the game for what they do. 


Edited by Bloody Legionnaire, 11 November 2019 - 11:28 PM.


#42
happyslugger

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It's the GW machine though isn't it.

They have created Primaris and now need to sell all these new units to existing marine players so they give them awesome new rules. And I say this as a Blood Angels player who sold his mini marines to start pure Primaris. There is far too much power creep in recent marine releases.

I haven't played my DG for a long time now as they just cannot compete with all the new marine toys (it is that simple really).

I've just been focusing on painting up my new BA Primaris army (that doesn't get all the toys either lol) and just play chaos knights at the moment...

Whole DG codex needs an overhaul in my humble opinion.
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#43
Dallas Drake

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I don’t think 2w Plague Marines justify a points increase in today’s meta. Compare them to Primaris and Aggressors and it’s clearly justifiable not just for survivability but for damage output too. At the end of the day if they did prove OP, something I highly doubt with all the D2 out there, then points can be adjusted in the next update window. The only thing I can bring to compete in tournaments right now is 3xPBCs and 3xButcher Levis and even then IH do it better so I lose to them most games. Not to mention 8th is very you got first turn = gg.
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#44
Putrid Choir

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Everything now needs to be compared to the new space marines codex and supplements. That is the direction GW is heading, or I should say 'went' to sell Primaris marines. 2w plague marines might not seem fair to vanilla chaos marines or some xenos (for now), but is completely fair to the over powered supplements with their army wide stronger traits, army wide doctrines, and army wide chapter bonus based on doctrines.

#45
jgascoine011

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It's the GW machine though isn't it.

They have created Primaris and now need to sell all these new units to existing marine players so they give them awesome new rules. And I say this as a Blood Angels player who sold his mini marines to start pure Primaris. There is far too much power creep in recent marine releases.

I haven't played my DG for a long time now as they just cannot compete with all the new marine toys (it is that simple really).

I've just been focusing on painting up my new BA Primaris army (that doesn't get all the toys either lol) and just play chaos knights at the moment...

Whole DG codex needs an overhaul in my humble opinion.

 

Completley disagree.

 

Many competitve space marines are mostly a mix.

Scout squads are still great.

Devestators in drop pods with grav are great.

Centurions are great.

Smash Captains are still a thing

Single unit multi-melta attack bikes can be very good.

Dreadnoughts are making a comeback with being able to become characters.



#46
jgascoine011

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Everything now needs to be compared to the new space marines codex and supplements. That is the direction GW is heading, or I should say 'went' to sell Primaris marines. 2w plague marines might not seem fair to vanilla chaos marines or some xenos (for now), but is completely fair to the over powered supplements with their army wide stronger traits, army wide doctrines, and army wide chapter bonus based on doctrines.

 

While I agree that many armies are comparing themselves to space marines as they are right now the top dog, most of them can atleast compete against them.

 

Deathguard however are really struggling against other amies.

 

Another thing I would love to see is a strat that gives the mortar on a PBC the ability to shoot at the end of the enemies movment phase if they went 1st. Needs to be able to done on 3 PBCs though. Call it something like creaping death or plague bombardment.



#47
happyslugger

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It's the GW machine though isn't it.

They have created Primaris and now need to sell all these new units to existing marine players so they give them awesome new rules. And I say this as a Blood Angels player who sold his mini marines to start pure Primaris. There is far too much power creep in recent marine releases.

I haven't played my DG for a long time now as they just cannot compete with all the new marine toys (it is that simple really).

I've just been focusing on painting up my new BA Primaris army (that doesn't get all the toys either lol) and just play chaos knights at the moment...

Whole DG codex needs an overhaul in my humble opinion.

Completley disagree.

Many competitve space marines are mostly a mix.
Scout squads are still great.
Devestators in drop pods with grav are great.
Centurions are great.
Smash Captains are still a thing
Single unit multi-melta attack bikes can be very good.
Dreadnoughts are making a comeback with being able to become characters.

That's the beauty of being human we all have our own opinions :-)

I still stand by my observation that the new SM books have pushed the power levels up, and a lot of these rules favour the new toys (new dread, aggressors, bolters on Primaris are better for example).

Nothing wrong with that, simple business model really. Heck I'm collecting them myself lol

Also the sceptic in me wonders how many of these older kits GW are trying to shift from storage hence a few rule tweaks for some older models and the make up of some of the xmas battle boxes.

Ultimately we do not know and we all have our own thoughts/theories...


Edited by happyslugger, 12 November 2019 - 03:12 PM.

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#48
Midnight Brotherhood

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Let's not forget Possessed went from 1 wound to 2 wounds at no additional points costs and have even come down in points since the start of the edition. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for plague marines to get an extra wound at no extra cost.


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#49
Wolf Lord Loki

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Let's not forget Possessed went from 1 wound to 2 wounds at no additional points costs and have even come down in points since the start of the edition. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for plague marines to get an extra wound at no extra cost.


They have?? I have so missed all the important stuff
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Opponents:
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#50
Dallas Drake

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Let's not forget Possessed went from 1 wound to 2 wounds at no additional points costs and have even come down in points since the start of the edition. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for plague marines to get an extra wound at no extra cost.

Exactly. W2 and 5++ and nobody takes them. Hardly see W2 PMs being game breaking, more about putting us half a step back on a competitive footing. Option for heavy blight launchers on MBH and dreads, give the whole codex DR and we’re done... IMO that is.

Edit. Even with all of that IW and IF would still murder us in our beds. But at least it’s give us a chance against other armies.

Edited by Dallas Drake, 13 November 2019 - 06:45 PM.

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