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Custom rules for Nykona Sharrowkyn

raven guard nykona sharrowkyn custom rules

9 replies to this topic

#1
MorgothNL

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Hi everyone, 

 

I have made a similar post in the Raven Guard Tactica section, but I'm also interested in the opinion of non Raven Guard players (for they are the ones who'd have to face the following)

 

I have made custom rules for the Raven Guard character known as Sharrowkyn. He is the one that snipes Fulgrim in the eye and beats Lucius 2x in combat and kills him. He is described as having the same wraithslipping ability that Corax does. He is known for his stealth, sniper skills, and his flawless use of jump pack in combat while wielding his Twin Black Gladii. (just google his name if you want some additional info about his lore)

 

Nykona Sharrowkyn

230 PTS

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD  Sv

6      6    4  4   3  5  5  10   2+

Wargear:

- Artificer armour

- Refractor Field

- Twin black gladius

- Jump pack

- Needle sniper rifle

- Shroud Bombs

- Frag & Krak grenades

 

Special Rules:

- Legiones Astartes (Raven Guard)

- Independent Character

- Counter-Attack

- Master of the Shadows

- Wraithslipping

- Deadly Focus

 

Master of shadows:

This confers a 3+ cover save (that can never be improved) and the Scout and Infiltrate special rules to Sharrowkyn.

 

Wraithslipping:

Any shots taken at Sharrowkyn from more than 18" away, are taken at BS1 with blasts templates always counting as indirect fire. This ability is lost when Sharrowkyn joins a unit. Additionally Sharrowkyn may use his Jump-Pack in both the movement and assault phase and gains the Hit&Run special rule. This is not conferred to a unit he has joined, but he may attempt a Hit&Run move regardless. If successful, he will be separated from his unit.

 

Deadly Focus:

This confers the Precision Strike special rule to Sharrowkyn. Additionally when fighting in a Challenge he gains +1 Initiative, his invulnerable save is improved to 4+ and the Murderous Strike of his Twin Black Gladii is improved to 5+. Only Murderous Strike rolls of a '6' spill over to the unit, other wounds are resolved with the normal profile.

 

Weapon                         Range        Str    AP      Type

Needle Sniper Rifle        

- Quick Shot                     36"            4       4        Assault 2, Rending, Fleshbane, Sniper

- Focused Shot                36"            4       4        Heavy 2, Rending 5+, Fleshbane, Sniper

 

Weapon                         Range       Str      AP     Type

Twin Black Galdii              Melee      +1       2        Master-Crafted, Murderous Strike (Note, these are two separate Gladius blades used together as a matched pair and the bonus for wielding 2 melee weapons had already been included in Sharrrowkyns Profile)

 

 

Some thoughts and considerations:

- I didn't want to give him a 4++, but did want to make him solo viable. Since the lore describes him as almost as stealthy as Corax himself, the cover save route seemed like the way to go. A 3+ cover save helps him survive against most non-superheavy shooting, as does the snapshot entry. Cover doesn't work in combat, si that's where this balances out. 

- To make him a reliable challenge character, the 4++ and improved murderous strike in challenge was added. This way he can match normal praetors and most named characters, but will get shredded by even a small unit of elite terminators or large units. 

- None of the buffs are transferred to a unit, to avoid OP combo's and to keep the estimated of his worth more simple to determine on face value.

- I felt like initiative 6 would be very much justified, but with custom rules I think it is better to keep it toned down. Therefore I limited the I6 to challenge only.

- Note his 4++ invul is only in challenge and not all close combat. 

 

- For his costs I dissected the all the rules and equipment costs, and afterwards compared him to other characters:

1) Sigismund (same cost), Sharrowkyn will nearly always lose in 1v1 due to Sigismund having Eternal warrior, 4 wounds and forcing reroll invul saves.

2) Eidolon with JP (slightly cheaper). In a charge Eidolon would most likely win due to striking first and his hammer causing instant death with every blow. If Sharrowkyn charges it will be quite an even fight. Sharrowkyn will only hit on 4+ due to sonic shrieker. So the math put him on less than 50% of killing Eidolon before Eidolon strikes. And again, once Eidolon strikes and hits on 3+ he will likely kill Sharrowkyn.

3) A fully kitted praetor (JP, Iron halo, digital lasers, Divining Blade, melta bombs) comes out cheaper than Sharrowkyn and has instant death on all his attacks (making him much more viable vs units). In 1vs1 it will be quite even depending on rolled saves and unit that back either one up.

 

- So on 1vs1 basis I would have put him between 200-215 pts. 

- Solo playability made me put him around 240 (The snapshots and 3+ cover are still based on dice rolls and without him being able to look-out-sir when solo, a quad lascannon still has a good chance of killing him outright and when he gets closer than 18", he gets even more vulnerable. So I didn't think it was worth much more)

- A fully kitted Praetor as described above comes up cheaper, has master of the legion and instant death on all his attacks. This is how I'd run him when house-rules are not allowed. And honestly, I think that praetor would have a higher damage output, would be easier/safer to play and have a better chance of making it to the end of the game.

- Losing Master of the Legion is quite a hit for you'll need another expensive character to acces ROW. So I dropped him down to 230pts.

- Please consider the risk of running any model by itself. His vulnerability to a single lucky shot, and his limitations vs larger units/characters with bodyguard, when judging his worth.

 

 

I'm very interested in your opinion. I hope I did a good job to capture his fluff/feel, making him viable in the ways he should be viable, but not making him OP in other ways or feel out of place in the legion/rules set.



#2
Nomadic Thunder

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I really like it.

 

From a personal point of view, I would have no problems playing against sharrowkyn with the above rules, as long as he had an appropriately cool model!

I think you've done a good job balancing his rule set and cost and the rules you have written read very well too, for what it's worth!

 

I understand the 5++ for fairness and not wanting to create an over powered super dude, but i wouldn't be grumpy if you told me he had an iron halo if i was facing him across the board, especially at 230pts. I do feel that he is approppriately squishy to decent combat units and characters so wont just walk through everything unaided.

 

I like the deadly focus rule (sounds pretty cool too) but I feel like instead of improving his invul save he could be harder to hit? I think it would tie in with his wraith slipping and master of shadows rules better and do justice to the character as he dances in and out of combat using burst of his jump pack.

 

I really like the wraithslipping rule, losing the ability to double move whilst in a squad is both fair and makes sense. His hit & run ability even whilst joined to a unit and the BS1 to target over 18" and indirect blasts are both super cool. I'm not totally sold on the BS1 maybe it could be a re-roll or -2 to hit but i suppose without it he would otherwise just be focus fired into the week after next...

With master of the shadows do you think he deserves move through cover too or would that be too much? maybe it could be another solo ability or maybe it's just my inner fan-boy talking teehee.gif

 

Weapons-wise i like his twin blades but you could give them duelists edge (and replace the intiative buff of deadly focus with a to hit penalty?)

For his needle rifle i always read/imagined him firing off a volley of shots up close as he ducked and fainted into combat, maybe you could give the quick shot mode the ability to fire after movement and assault 3 but get rid of fleshbane or swap it for poisoned 4+. It would also make his focussed shot feel a bit more potent.

 

one final thought would be making him available to only shattered legions armies and (possibly) blackshields to represent his close ties to wayland and the crew of the Sisypheum and his independence from the raven guard legion itself?

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts and opinions. I hope they don't come across too nit picky or critical as I am by no means a master of the table top and i am quite biased to sharrowkyn as a character myself so take the above with a pinch of salt!

I think you've done a great job of representing the character and have created some unique and fun rules to play him with. I would be very happy to play against him myself and it is tempting me to start a little Raven Guard Iron Hands Shattered Legion force!

Thanks for sharing!



#3
Cadmus Tyro

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I think you’ve done a great job of representing the character, I like the fact he is geared towards combat rather than buffing your army, the loss of MoL is a nice touch.

However, IMHO he is under costed. Whilst you have done the math with regard to his combat ability, it is much harder to weigh the other benefits that he brings to the table, the benefits that no amount of math hammer will help you with.

Taking the comparison to Sigismund, your character has more mobility (jump pack), the ability to escape combat (hit and run), the ability to set up anywhere on the field (scout and infiltrate!), an much improved defence against shooting attacks (shooting BS1 and 3+ cover save), better shooting attack, a better defensive combat ability (shroud bombs, counter attack). I do not think losing MoL and being slightly worse in combat that the best combat orientated characters in the game balances the above bonuses.

When you look at HH characters, they always have a focus and disadvantages, even the higher costed ones. They tend to draw their additional bonuses from their legion specific rules, so he’s going to get furious charge on top of all of the above rules.

If you wanted to balance the cost further and emphasise the character more I would suggest you tone down his additional rules. In some senses this would be a shame as he is represented well. So, my suggestion would be to add the “lone killer” rule and “support character”. I’ve always seen Sharrowkyn as an army of one and not a leader, this would force you to take an alternate character and balance his defensive bonuses by not allowing him to hide in a squad or be buffed by other rules.

Anyway, I hope you have some fun with him if you can get someone to play test him.

Cadmus

Alpha legion and Iron hands work in progress:
http://www.bolterand...legion-wip-log/

 

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#4
MorgothNL

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Thank you both so much for taking the time the go read it all and come back with very useful stuff!

 

as long as he had an appropriately cool model!

That is why I started to write these rules, I'm working on what I hope will be an awesome model :).

 

 

 

I like the deadly focus rule (sounds pretty cool too) but I feel like instead of improving his invul save he could be harder to hit? I think it would tie in with his wraith slipping and master of shadows rules better and do justice to the character as he dances in and out of combat using burst of his jump pack.

Agreed, I'll take a moment to think and see if there is another clean way of tackling this.

 

 

 

I really like the wraithslipping rule, losing the ability to double move whilst in a squad is both fair and makes sense. His hit & run ability even whilst joined to a unit and the BS1 to target over 18" and indirect blasts are both super cool. I'm not totally sold on the BS1 maybe it could be a re-roll or -2 to hit but i suppose without it he would otherwise just be focus fired into the week after next...

With master of the shadows do you think he deserves move through cover too or would that be too much? maybe it could be another solo ability or maybe it's just my inner fan-boy talking teehee.gif

Yes, this was one of the harder factors to take on. How to balance a character to be solo-viable, without making him too strong, weird or weak. Initially I gave him a rule similar to Corax's own rule, where he had snapshots only against him when the shots came from 18'+. But this was later changed to BS1 shots, to still allow blast and templates to target him. A -2 to hit would not work imho, for he would get blasted off the table by any Twin-Linked Lascannons, units with strafing run, any mass twin-linked shots etc. Honestly, I think the 18" limit is already creating a huge weakness to Sharrowkyn that I rather not have seen, but I could not think of another way to handle it. Making him even more vulnerable to shooting would simple not work IMHO (especially since I think I'll be adding the Lone Killer special rule like Tyro suggested)

 

 

Weapons-wise i like his twin blades but you could give them duelists edge (and replace the intiative buff of deadly focus with a to hit penalty?)

Good point, I'll look into it :). Seems cleaner too.

 

 

For his needle rifle i always read/imagined him firing off a volley of shots up close as he ducked and fainted into combat, maybe you could give the quick shot mode the ability to fire after movement and assault 3 but get rid of fleshbane or swap it for poisoned 4+. It would also make his focussed shot feel a bit more potent.

Yes, I imagined the same, but I had to be careful not to make him very strong in both shooting, movement and combat. I'll look into increasing his shots, but decreasing the lethality of those shots :).

 

 

one final thought would be making him available to only shattered legions armies and (possibly) blackshields to represent his close ties to wayland and the crew of the Sisypheum and his independence from the raven guard legion itself?

Since I really want him in my Istvan IV themed Raven Guard, this would really work out :P. Plus, there is no reason for him to not be able to be part of a normal RG list before/after the heresy (he didn't change his ways or something).

 

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts and opinions. I hope they don't come across too nit picky or critical as I am by no means a master of the table top and i am quite biased to sharrowkyn as a character myself so take the above with a pinch of salt!

No no, very much appreciated! It's not picky at all, and this was exactly what I was looking for. It needs to work for everyone :).

 

 

 

However, IMHO he is under costed. Whilst you have done the math with regard to his combat ability, it is much harder to weigh the other benefits that he brings to the table, the benefits that no amount of math hammer will help you with.

Yes, his unique rules make it hard to decide the correct pts worth of the character.

 

 

Taking the comparison to Sigismund, your character has more mobility (jump pack), the ability to escape combat (hit and run), the ability to set up anywhere on the field (scout and infiltrate!), an much improved defence against shooting attacks (shooting BS1 and 3+ cover save), better shooting attack, a better defensive combat ability (shroud bombs, counter attack). I do not think losing MoL and being slightly worse in combat that the best combat orientated characters in the game balances the above bonuses

This is where I have to disagree from a gaming perspective I think. You are right that you can't compare Sigismund and Sharrowkyn on pure 1v1 value. But I think you might be overweighing the strength of all factors you mentioned. Yes he is more mobile (JP, Infiltrate and scout), yes he can Hit&Run, yes he has a shooting attack and has a improved defence vs shots.

BUT, I think you have to value all of that taking into account the net results of it all. He does not transfer any of the rules to a unit, so I will talk about him in single model setup. 

- JP + infiltrate + scout: yes he has all that, but what does it do for you in game? He cannot capture objectives, he cannot take on vehicles, he cannot take on elite units of good quality or larger size, he cannot take on larger squads of basic units and he cannot single out an enemy character without facing the consequences of getting the enemy unit all over him as well. So all of those special rules, don't really get him anywhere that is too-powerful to be at. In most cases you will have to time his arrival with the arrival of you dark furies etc, which can be very difficult to do. 

- Improved defence vs shots: He needs this to stand any chance of making it past turn 2. Plus, it's not really true on the table. Sigismund and other named characters/praetors will arrive with a good bodyguard (probably 2+/5++ models) and in a landraider/spartan/eagle. Those have a much higher chance of getting where they need to be T2-T3, and when they do arrive, they have a higher survivability than Sharrowkyn, a higher damage output and can score objectives (depending on the unit). 

 

So all in all, I think you really need to think of what all those special rules are going to get you in terms of damage output and winning games. If the end conclusion is that he has a good chance of being anywhere on the field and surviving the game there... but not actually participating in killing or objectives, than that's not worth much. Is some cases he might even actually be a easy killpoint for the enemy. 1 Round of dual quadlascannons to kill him seems like a very good trade-off.

 

 

If you wanted to balance the cost further and emphasise the character more I would suggest you tone down his additional rules. In some senses this would be a shame as he is represented well. So, my suggestion would be to add the “lone killer” rule and “support character”. I’ve always seen Sharrowkyn as an army of one and not a leader, this would force you to take an alternate character and balance his defensive bonuses by not allowing him to hide in a squad or be buffed by other rules.

I think this is an excellent point and I will likely be giving him the lone killer rule. This is nice and clean and this makes all the 'does not transfer to the unit' stuff unnecessary. 

 

 

I will have a look at everything again and come up with something that hopefully pleases everyone more, until Sharrowkyn gets to a point where he is really fun and fair character to play with/against for everyone that reads his rules.

 

Thanks!



#5
Cadmus Tyro

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Let me agree to disagree then, but in my opinion having a jump pack, hit and run, infiltrate and scout is quite a significant benefit in a game where the majority of the tactical decisions are based on movement. Believe me, I play alpha legion, a fair amount. Survival should be based on your deployment and movement decisions, not innate abilities. You seem to be trying to weigh his characteristics based on combat ability alone, which is a mistake. Also, he has more special rules in total than alpharius......which to me says something.

Personally, I think making him a “character” (which would prevent him joining units but not independent characters from joining him) and the support character rule would go a long way to balancing his abilities.

How about something like this:

Nykona Sharrowkyn
230 PTS

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
6 6 4 4 3 5 5 10 2+
Wargear:
- Artificer armour
- Refractor Field
- Twin paragon blades (additional attack included in the profile)
- Jump pack
- Needle sniper rifle
- Shroud Bombs
- Frag & Krak grenades

Special Rules:
- Legiones Astartes (Raven Guard)
- Character
- Infiltrate
- hit and run
- Stealth
- support character
- Deadly Focus

Deadly Focus:
This confers the Precision Strike special rule to Sharrowkyn. Additionally when fighting in a Challenge he gains +1 Initiative, his invulnerable save is improved to 4+ and the Murderous Strike of his Twin paragon blades is improved to 5+.

Weapon Range Str AP Type
Needle Sniper Rifle 36" 4 4 Heavy 2, Rending, Fleshbane, Sniper, quick shot

Quick shot - snap fire shots are resolved at BS2 rather than BS1

Few notes -
His shooting ability has been toned down.
He has been degraded to a “character”, which means he can still be joined by other independent characters and be buffed by other rules.
The stealth rule has replaced the wraithslipping rule, I don’t think you need this. A single model should be able to find enough places to hide, especially with a jump pack. It means you will have to be a little more “tactical” with his movement and placement.

Cadmus

Edited by Cadmus Tyro, 20 October 2019 - 05:35 AM.

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Alpha legion and Iron hands work in progress:
http://www.bolterand...legion-wip-log/

 

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#6
MorgothNL

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Thanks again for your reply :)

To be very honest, this suggestion starts to track away so far from what I envision Sharrowkyn to be, that the idea is entirely lost :(. Plus I really think your rewrite make him unplayable and most certainly not worth more than about 185pts. In any case I would always be running Praetor instead for this character isn't worth not having MOL :(.
(I understand we have a different vision here, and this is in no way meant with disrespect).

This is my opinion and are my issues with your suggestion:
- your Sharrowkyn has both lost shrouded and the 3+ cover save. This means he's running 2+/5++ with a 4+ cover in terrain. Being a model that cannot join unit, this will mean that 9 out of 10 games, he gets shot dead before getting into combat. Any normal board setup will force any unit / model to move at least the last 12" in the open and most likely he will be in the open 1 turn before that moment as well. Infiltrate is nice, but your opponent can just negate him having the change to setup on a flank, in which case he's going to have an impossible time by himself. If I think about board build outside of my house (30k tournaments or games on the 30k channel) I see no way of getting a lone 2+/5++ anywhere to pose a threat :(.
- you say he had the same amount of special rules as Alpharius, but let's not compare the rules I wrote to Primarch level, for that is way out of proportions. A Primarch statline is already worth 300pts. And the Primarch special rule incorporates 10 special rules by itself (sharrowkyn had 6 total). Plus they have eternal warrior, a better invul, it will not die and so much more that is just on a way different level than sharrowkyn. The official rules of the RG Moritat Kaedes Nex has more special rules than this sharrowkyn. Plus the way Alpharius buffs the entire army is so strong. My point is, as soon a we actually compare this sharrowkyn to Primarch level.. We lose perspective and won't be able to get to a fun rule set. I think I've be really honest in his pts value. I wouldn't go as far as Nomadic Thunder said and give him a 4++, but I do agree that he would need a buff before a nerf when it comes to saves.

I do really like the 'character', lone killer and support character rules to make him cleaner and really limit his options as a buff character.
I will be adding a combination of those ^^, revise his shooting and see if there is another way of him not being shot off the board without delay, without giving him the 3+ cover and bs1 shots against him (though I don't see a good way of getting there in the same fluffy way that balances out in combat in the same way)

#7
Cadmus Tyro

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Ok, well I’m out, glad you found some of my input of some benefit, personally I would not play this character in his current iteration. Also, you may want to read the infiltrators USR again, infiltrators set up after everything else has deployed. So unless your opponent has a lot of infiltrating units (in which case you will deploy alternating units) then he will not be able to refuse a flank and leave you deployed on the opposite table edge.

You also missed the point about the alpharius comment, I agree he is nowhere near primarch level, I was pointing out the excessive number of rules you are using to depict the character. He survives turn one by careful deployment and using him in conjunction with the rest of your army, ie keep him out of LoS.....

Good luck with it.

Cadmus

Alpha legion and Iron hands work in progress:
http://www.bolterand...legion-wip-log/

 

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#8
MorgothNL

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I guess that will always be the issue with any custom rules :(. I've had 5 people giving me feedback and even suggestion some buffs (and some with minor nerfs), but there will always be players that find it OP. I was trying to get to a 9/10 ratio of positive feedback, using the feedback I get from people. I do get what you are saying, but I also do hope that you agree that your version was quite overcosted? If you do agree there, and agree it's worth 180-200pts.. Then hope is not lost for I'm working towards a 230pts character, So we'd have 30-50pts to play with and improve your version, in mostly a fun way to gives back the soul to the character.

As a RG player, I am fully aware of the infiltrate rules :). But I was considering hammer and anvil or dawn of war deployments and a normal terrain setup that has a good amount of it, but also allows for super heavies to move (like the 30k channel boards). In those cases, the enemy sets up over the entire width of their zone with max 36" between units, and then you'll have to deploy him 18" forward of his battle line (so not directly in the flank is what I meant). Any average player will make sure that his vulnerable units will be hard to reach for outflanking units or a model like sharrowkyn, and put transports on the flanks (that he can't damage). This is an issue that already arises quite often with my Moritat. But a moritat is shooty and carries melta bombs, so he normally has more options. It I not just about being able to safely hide him, but also to have him putting out damage at a certain point. I really think a lone character of 230pts needs a good defensive ability vs shooting for when he shows his face at a certain point to try and put out damage.

I think in the end I hope we can get back to a setup where he feels less generic, and more special like Kaedes Nex, and give him the soul of the character. Your current iteration is basically a lone wolf jp Praetor with lower invul save and slightly better paragon blade that lost MOL and the ability to still infiltrate with jp (all RG can infiltrate, just not with jp). I am looking for something more unique and fun that really gives the sharrowkyn vibe more than that :)

Edited by MorgothNL, 20 October 2019 - 06:36 AM.


#9
CajunJynx

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I’m with Cadmus, this is under costed, by a lot. Better shooting than Exodus, one of the best snipers during the heresy, and close combat almost rivaled to sigi, oh and you can only hit him on a 6....

I get wanting to make a cool custom character, but I wouldn’t play if you fielded him.

Edited by CajunJynx, 07 November 2019 - 09:47 AM.


#10
CajunJynx

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I guess that will always be the issue with any custom rules :(. I've had 5 people giving me feedback and even suggestion some buffs (and some with minor nerfs), but there will always be players that find it OP. I was trying to get to a 9/10 ratio of positive feedback, using the feedback I get from people. I do get what you are saying, but I also do hope that you agree that your version was quite overcosted? If you do agree there, and agree it's worth 180-200pts.. Then hope is not lost for I'm working towards a 230pts character, So we'd have 30-50pts to play with and improve your version, in mostly a fun way to gives back the soul to the character.

As a RG player, I am fully aware of the infiltrate rules :). But I was considering hammer and anvil or dawn of war deployments and a normal terrain setup that has a good amount of it, but also allows for super heavies to move (like the 30k channel boards). In those cases, the enemy sets up over the entire width of their zone with max 36" between units, and then you'll have to deploy him 18" forward of his battle line (so not directly in the flank is what I meant). Any average player will make sure that his vulnerable units will be hard to reach for outflanking units or a model like sharrowkyn, and put transports on the flanks (that he can't damage). This is an issue that already arises quite often with my Moritat. But a moritat is shooty and carries melta bombs, so he normally has more options. It I not just about being able to safely hide him, but also to have him putting out damage at a certain point. I really think a lone character of 230pts needs a good defensive ability vs shooting for when he shows his face at a certain point to try and put out damage.

I think in the end I hope we can get back to a setup where he feels less generic, and more special like Kaedes Nex, and give him the soul of the character. Your current iteration is basically a lone wolf jp Praetor with lower invul save and slightly better paragon blade that lost MOL and the ability to still infiltrate with jp (all RG can infiltrate, just not with jp). I am looking for something more unique and fun that really gives the sharrowkyn vibe more than that :)


There is a really good character builder for HH somewhere that my local meta uses for building custom named characters for campaigns, I’ll see if I can find the document.

Basically you start with a centurion/preator/knight-errant template and build from there, with options costing points.



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