Are Ultras the worst supplement?

[emperorpants]

Now this doesn't mean I think that Ultras are a bad army, far from it!  They are flexible and good.  It just seems to me that they are probably the weakest supplement so far.  Our strats or either kinda bad (increasing morale by 1?  Really?) or decent.  With maybe one that would be considered really good.  

 

Our psychic discipline is easily the worst so far.

 

Our Special characters are decent, but G-man is a shadow of what he used to be.

 

Overall, again, I'd say we are a good high tier army, but not a top tier one, and seemingly the weakest of the supplements at the moment.    Thoughts?

Edited October 18, 2019 by emperorpants

[Cruor Vault]

Not at all.

 

Our stratagems are EXTREMELY powerful!

 

We have more options than any other marine army in how we can approach a problem.  The versatility offered by the mobility the Tactical Doctrine buff gives us makes our ability to adapt to battlefield situations second to none.

 

I wouldn't get too worked up comparing our supplement to the Iron Hands book.  Even post-nerf they're staggeringly powerful.  Their Chapter tactic provides a lot more raw damage output and they get maximum benefit from it starting turn 1.  Ravenguard and White Scars are also more damage oriented, so they appear more potent on the surface.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Personally I think if the table has decent line-of-sight blocking terrain Ultramarines are top tier. We don’t need a lot of heavy weapons to do well. The tactical doctrine is where we shine.

[Prot]

I don't want anyone to jump on emperorpants for posting this. It may read as a bit sensationalist but it doesn't mean we can't have a real, analytical discussion about it.

 

That said here's my short answer....

 

If you don't dive too deep, and you look at the surface detail, then yes I think there are -obvious- choices in the other Supplements.  There are obvious power plays, with strong and potent combo's that pop right out of those books. 

 

However the lack of dominance in one area, or one playstyle is really just another way of saying 'balanced'. There are no horrible choices for Ultramarines, and therefore nothing pops out as must have. (I'm not saying that the other supplements are one trick ponies but we are seeing a gravitation towards certain builds.)

 

In my opinion, a very good Ultramarines player, who knows his army, and his meta inside out, has a shot against any of these other supplements in the most competitive of environments. It might be close, it might be as simple as who goes first, but I would not discount a great tactician with an Ultramarines force against any of their brothers. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Prot

[Ishagu]

Hmmmm, tough to say. Ultras might be the worst but it's not clear cut.

 

I think Iron Hands are better even with the nerfs. Raven Guard and White Scars are more dynamic and can bear down on an opponent quicker, but they can also be more vulnerable. RG in particular really need CP for their plays. I mentioned in another topic that they are high risk/high reward.

 

Ultras are a steady type of army and they do have some nice strats and abilities.

 

I actually think that Guilliman could have kept the full wound re-roll aura now that there are different and dynamic ways to play.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Ishagu

[Cruor Vault]

 

I actually think that Guilliman could have kept the full wound re-roll aura now that there are different and dynamic ways to play.

 

He for sure needs a pts drop now that Imperial Fists can 100% replicate his abilities with a Captain, 2CP, and 1 Relic.

[emperorpants]

I certainly don't mean to come off as sensationalist, so sorry if it seemed that way. I also don't mean to sound negative about ultras, I think we are actually very good and quite flexible! I'm just legit curious how everyone views our supplement in relation to the others. I do happen to think ours is the worst. But being the worst out of a very strong release isn't bad at all. We are still very powerful, and as prot said, can hang with anyone with a chance to win. Like I said before, I think ultras are high tier, but not top tier.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of the other factions tend to favor specific play styles while we are a master of none but jack of all trades. Seems like we’re in a good position to exploit them by playing to a greater overall strength.

[templargdt]

No, the Ultras are still strong.  They are stronger than the Scars or RG.  They will almost certainly be stronger than the Sallies as it stands today.  The Fists may equal them, but we need to see the rest of the strats and relics.  The Fists discipline is likely going to be pretty bad.

The IH are still heads above everyone else, of course.

[Ishagu]

Why do you think they are stronger than the RG?

 

The Ultras doctrine is definitely better, but the RG can deploy all sorts of high damage units into optimum firing range from turn 1 and move around the board more effectively. There's nothing in our book as strong as delivering 6 Grav Centurions into firing range of anything straight from reserves.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

UM are finally playing the way they should. They're entire shtick is supposed to be adaptive tactics, and that is what their codex is, a lot of strong options and the ability to shift their tactics to meet any given situation. Add the ability to move and fire heavy weapons on infantry units with no penalty , the ability for aggressors to shoot twice while on the move, and their ability to fall back and shoot, and you have an army that is hard to lock down and able to put out damage while getting where they want to go.

 

The other marine books actually do a pretty amazing job of putting forth the strengths of the chapters. The only reason people think Iron hands are flat broken (and they're reasonable now after their nerfs) is because people are too used to judging strength based on flat numbers. IE, damage output + toughness of army = strength. That is a good way to get an initial gut feeling of an army, but doesn't tell the whole story.

 

RG are going to absolutely hammer guard and Nids, as both of those armies fall apart if you tear out their support units..

IH are going to be the Deathguard of marines, fairly slow, not cover/castle dependent, and will beat you in a war of attrition if you let them (flyers can't take objectives so though they're good, they're not the end all).

WS are going to obliterate T'au with the ability to close the distance with large chunks of their army and turn off overwatch.

Fists are going to castle better than any other army, flat out. They won't be the creeping doom of IH, but they will be the wall you break yourself against.

And at a glance, it looks like Sallys will be the wound kings. Shorter range than other armies, slightly tougher than other armies, but step into range and they will delete anything that you throw at them.

 

Do I think that UM will play worse than any of these other setups? No. I think that you have access to an incredible toolkit. But you will have to use your brain and fight each of these armies where they are weakest. Against IH and Fists you'll have to play the objective game and tag units in melee to keep them from outgunning you while taking advantage of your double firing aggressors. Against RG you'll have to use your superior mobility to keep units on the move as mobile screens and make sure they can't teleport around and bully the board. Against Whitescars you'll have to make use of wide screens and the ability to fall back and still shoot. Against Sallys you'll have to play keep away, using the fact you get full shots while moving and they don't, while their strongest options are shorter range than yours.

 

As an Um player, you'll want lots of diverse infantry backed up by a small core of armor, and you'll want to be always on the move. Make sure you have flying troupes to tag enemy planes and ruin their shooting. Make sure you have anti deepstrike troupes to mess with RG. Your anti deepstrike also double as forward deployment to try and tag IF armies and shut down their shooting early on. 

 

You get the point.

[Kallas]

we are a master of none but jack of all trades.

Jack of all trades but a master of none, but better than a master of one.

 

That's the full saying, and it's perfectly appropriate for Ultramarines!

[Medjugorje]

Hmmmm, tough to say. Ultras might be the worst but it's not clear cut.

 

I think Iron Hands are better even with the nerfs. Raven Guard and White Scars are more dynamic and can bear down on an opponent quicker, but they can also be more vulnerable. RG in particular really need CP for their plays. I mentioned in another topic that they are high risk/high reward.

 

Ultras are a steady type of army and they do have some nice strats and abilities.

 

I actually think that Guilliman could have kept the full wound re-roll aura now that there are different and dynamic ways to play.

 

Gulliman need a Point reduction. For 300 Points he would be okay.

[Medjugorje]

No, the Ultras are still strong.  They are stronger than the Scars or RG.  They will almost certainly be stronger than the Sallies as it stands today.  The Fists may equal them, but we need to see the rest of the strats and relics.  The Fists discipline is likely going to be pretty bad.

 

The IH are still heads above everyone else, of course.

 

??? The Fists going to be on the same Level as IH do.

And after all, wait until Black Templars get their Supplement. then the Black Templars are the worst ( i am very sure for that if the rumors are true)

[CaptainMarsh]

It comes down to how you view the nature of power in a game of Warhammer.

Is power having a single strategy/gimmick that, if you execute properly, gives you outrageous potential but at the cost of not being balanced enough to handle it well if your plan fails?

Or is it not truly excelling at any single power play, but rather having the capability to do anything and adapt to the gameflow better?

The Ultramarines are the latter. They will rarely if ever have the power play that the opponent can't counter. But in order to make those power plays really effective, most other supplements have to give up the ability to be balanced and are worse at adapting. Yeah they're better when their plan works, but when something happens to mess up their plan they are far lesser than the Ultramarines.

So really, it is all about perspective. I don't see the UM Supplement as the weakest of the bunch. In fact, I personally think it is the second strongest after Iron Hands. Of course since all the supplements are built off of the bones of a very strong codex it really is the definition of a first world gaming problem. All the supplements will help you build a pretty awesome army.

[Emicus]

Guilliman should be a HQ

[Ishagu]

Guilliman should be a HQ

This would be a great help, yes. If they changed him to be one he will be worthwhile again.

[Prot]

 

Guilliman should be a HQ

This would be a great help, yes. If they changed him to be one he will be worthwhile again.

 

 

Yes, plus we're still firmly entrenched in an era of lots of low end firepower takes down just about anything now (Even Salamanders got Vets of the Long War strat... crazy. There goes one of two Chaos unique strats that actually does something. lol) 

 

Not to mention the plethora of character sniping ability most armies can bring to the table. He really can't hide, fly, or be properly buffed. 

[Subtleknife]

I think ultras work well. There are a couple of strats that need fine tuning as they arent worth using atm imo ie plus 1 leadership.

 

RG is my big issue post nerf. Personally I dont want them to reduce his points but buff his capabilities. I would buff his wound aura to re roll 1, 2 and maybe 3. It's not as good as re roll all but diffentiates him from say a lt or the fists aura. Also maybe give him back the sweep attack from 7th, and/or move him to a hq slot and/or make him ride in a LR or repulsor. The wound buff with a combination of the above would be good.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

He’s almost just as good but now for the points there’s much better choices for a better overall army build. Don’t waste time wish listing.

[Subtleknife]

He isnt really "almost just as good". The loss of re roll wounds is huge as it has the ability to completely alter the effectiveness of a weapon. But anyways I will leave this line of enquiry here as it could be a whole other topic.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s just one thing. The only issue is melee with Knights. Hey Ultramarines join the club. :D

[crazyterran]

They are second or third best, but definitely not worst. Middle of the pack, as is tradition. Raven Guard might have the ability to get up close quickly, but they chug the CP without a way to regen them.

 

When you add special characters, while it might not trump Iron Hands, it at least keeps us from the bottom. Especially when you are not playing on planet bowling ball and put it on an actual tabletop rather than just the math!

[Ishagu]

What makes them second or third best exactly? I'm genuinely curious what rules you think they have that puts them ahead of the others?

 

To answer the topic, now that we've seen all supplements on detail the answer is yes. Ultras are indeed the weakest and they lack a truly exceptional rule or ability like the others have, be it defensive, movement or damage focused.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu

[Prot]

What makes them second or third best exactly? I'm genuinely curious what rules you think they have that puts them ahead of the others?

 

To answer the topic, now that we've seen all supplements on detail the answer is yes. Ultras are indeed the weakest and they lack a truly exceptional rule or ability like the others have, be it defensive, movement or damage focused.

 

Give me an example of the rules that we are missing that put them ahead of us. (I figure this is fair to ask since you are asking Crazyterran for details.)

 

I too am genuinely curious.