Heavy bolter spam army

[Galron]

I am curious as to why no one is talking about how devastating the new IF army is with just mass bolters. Really, who cares about leviathans and executioners. With a first turn use of Primarchs Wrath(I think that's the name) strat and eye of hypnoth and a few other buffs like the chaplain +1 damage buff, the damage output is insane and cheap. Yeah, the majority of your fire is 36"  but holy crap its nasty. It doesn't care about Iron Hand buffs and just piles on the 1, 2, 3 damage with stupidly high -AP.  You will burn through the CP however.

 

Played against an experimental list with my non-competitive guard army on a less than ideal Open War deployment set up. Lost 2 Valkyries, a punisher vulture, 2 Scion squads, to bolters for the most part. Spamming cheap 36" -3 Ap 2 damage heavy bolters is brutal when you are wounding everything except T8 on a 4+ near the new character. 

 

Hell, even eliminators get a massive bonus getting an extra hit on 6s, -3 AP with no cover bonuses and the high damage potential vs vehicles with d3.

[Hellebras]

I feel like that's the bulk of what's been discussed, actually. Heavy bolters are really, really good for Fists. That's the main reason why people have been really excited about Devastator Centurions: not only are they a good heavy bolter platform, it's possible to stack enough buffs on them to burn through pretty much any vehicle in one round of shooing while still being able to mow down chaff. At the moment, I'm thinking Devastator Centurions are probably broken, if less so than pre-errata Iron Hands.

[jeremy1391]

If you think about it a heavy bolter devestator Squad is effectively “endless fury” carried by a squad.

[Son of Sacrifice]

I'm looking at a land raider Prometheus myself. The versatility of heavy bolters is a big bonus. Good times.

[Lemondish]

I am curious as to why no one is talking about how devastating the new IF army is with just mass bolters.

Not sure where you've been - this has been all the rage since the leaks a couple weeks ago. Don Hoosen's list has been the basis of some great brigade talk.

[domsto]

I think the major downside to this is the CP cost for all those Stratagems and that you have to have your Units in Multiple Buff bubbles for it to Work.

So this Trick might work Turn 1 or 2 when the Good Targets are outside 36" anyway, but on later Turn you will either Lack the CP or the Units for this i fear.

And all this only Works against Vehicle, so have fun with it while playing against Tau or Tyranids.

[Son of Sacrifice]

Always better to build a balanced force of course, rather than build around one gimmick / trick. My armies are built to be edition proof, I don't want to be one of those chaps with shelves full of grav bikers.

[Galron]

It works well vs both horde and vehicles even without the strats. Its a ton of firepower going down range. Staying outside 36" is harder than it seems on most deployment set ups. Assault Centurions are great but slow. Twin Heavy bolter mortis dreads are cheap, durable, and put out a lot of fire each plus the missiles on top. Certainly not a one trick pony.

[domsto]

It works well vs both horde and vehicles even without the strats. Its a ton of firepower going down range. Staying outside 36" is harder than it seems on most deployment set ups. Assault Centurions are great but slow. Twin Heavy bolter mortis dreads are cheap, durable, and put out a lot of fire each plus the missiles on top. Certainly not a one trick pony.

I highly doubt the Horde killing Potential of the heavy Bolter. After all you need 8 Heavy Bolters to kill a 10men Guardsmen Squad even in the Dev Doctrine.

Also staying out of 36" is easy, most guns that have the Potential to kill the Heavy Bolter Centurions have more Range so they will get shot down before they can reach the Threat.

Edited October 22, 2019 by domsto

[DesSaboteur]

 

It works well vs both horde and vehicles even without the strats. Its a ton of firepower going down range. Staying outside 36" is harder than it seems on most deployment set ups. Assault Centurions are great but slow. Twin Heavy bolter mortis dreads are cheap, durable, and put out a lot of fire each plus the missiles on top. Certainly not a one trick pony.

I highly doubt the Horde killing Potential of the heavy Bolter. After all you need 8 Heavy Bolters to kill a 10men Guardsmen Squad even in the Dev Doctrine.

Also staying out of 36" is easy, most guns that have the Potential to kill the Heavy Bolter Centurions have more Range so they will get shot down before they can reach the Threat.

 

 

This is a little misleading, Yes it is 8 heavy bolters to kill 10 guardsmen, but that is ignoring some stuff. Exploding bolter shots reduces it down to 6, and if we think about leadership it reduces down to 5. These are also ignoring chapter master and eye of hypnoth auras that will probably be near the centurions. 

 

Heavy bolters are also very cheap for the fire power they can now provide to us. And when compared to lascannons from other chapters, our heavy bolters are the superior weapon for both anti-tank and anti-infantry in many situations. 

 

You do have a valid point about other heavy weapons having a longer range, and that centurions can be out maneuvered. The solution i am currently using, which has been successful so far, is to field 25 or more heavy bolters to cover my entire deployment zone with them, and use infiltrators and deep strikers to pull pressure away from the heavy weapons.

 

The centurions also provide another strategic advantage in that when placed in the middle of the board they create a massive area of denial, and controlling the board and your opponent is a huge step toward victory. 

 

Edit: I just saw you replied to a similer topic on another thread.

DesSaboteur, on 21 Oct 2019 - 09:15 AM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

 

 

The key factor here is that the super doctrine for the Imperial Fists is not as situational has you would think from reading it. The army can focus on putting out lots of cheap high rate of fire heavy weapons (see Heavy Bolters) that can focus on clearing horde armies. And if the opponent happens to have a few or a bunch of vehicles than those weapons get beefed up to fight them. 

 

A heavy bolter with the IF chapter tactic and super doctrine, point for point does more damage than other chapters lascannons, and you can easily field 20-25 in a list. That doesnt take into account Seige Breaker and Tank Hunters. 

 

"But even a beefed up Heavy Bolter isn't as effective as Hellblasters, which are by far the best weapon Marines have against Vehicals,Monsters,Battlesuits. Also Lascannons are not a good comparison because they are actually really bad.

Also i think a Heavy Bolter lacks Hordkilling potential, only 3 Shots aren't enougt to kill off a Horde of Greenskins or Guardsmen. Intersessors with Boltrifles or Autoboltguns are more effectiv pointwise.

So i would,n say the Heavy Bolter is the answer for IF. Yes their traits makes a rather bad weapon as the Heavy Bolter somewhat useable but still not good in my opinion."

 

 

To add from that discussion, Hell blasters certainly have a place when fighting against high tougness monsters with 3+ or 2+ saves, and will perform better against them. But against vehicles and 1 wound infantry heavy bolters are cheaper, have longer range, and do more damage then hell blasters. 

 

The IF tactic and doctrine changes the stats dramatically on them. A primaris based list can certainly achieve great results with hell blasters and before the IF supplement they were a great choice in every situation. But now they are not a defacto go to but rather fill a niche in the army.  

 

And pulling again from your other post, i would agree that Intersessors with Boltrifles or Autoboltguns are a better option to clear out horde armies, but you can field them as your infantry and still pack your army with heavy bolters, together they can bring all the firepower you need to clear hoards while the heavy bolters also provide the anti-tank firepower you need. 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by DesSaboteur

[domsto]

This is a little misleading, Yes it is 8 heavy bolters to kill 10 guardsmen, but that is ignoring some stuff. Exploding bolter shots reduces it down to 6, and if we think about leadership it reduces down to 5. These are also ignoring chapter master and eye of hypnoth auras that will probably be near the centurions.

 

Heavy bolters are also very cheap for the fire power they can now provide to us. And when compared to lascannons from other chapters, our heavy bolters are the superior weapon for both anti-tank and anti-infantry in many situations.

 

Yes of corse if you stack a lot of Buffs on them they become good. But other Weapons also benefit from that Buffs so yeah.

 

Leadership can be ignored i think. As i play main Guard and i never faild a Moral check thanks to multiple Buffs

Edited October 22, 2019 by domsto

[DesSaboteur]

 

This is a little misleading, Yes it is 8 heavy bolters to kill 10 guardsmen, but that is ignoring some stuff. Exploding bolter shots reduces it down to 6, and if we think about leadership it reduces down to 5. These are also ignoring chapter master and eye of hypnoth auras that will probably be near the centurions.

 

Heavy bolters are also very cheap for the fire power they can now provide to us. And when compared to lascannons from other chapters, our heavy bolters are the superior weapon for both anti-tank and anti-infantry in many situations.

Yes of corse if you stack a lot of Buffs on them they become good. But other Weapons also benefit from that Buffs so yeah.

 

Leadership can be ignored i think. As i play main Guard and i never faild a Moral check thanks to multiple Buffs

I was working on a edit to my post when you replied, so you probably missed a part of what i said.

 

But the point was that I ignored buffs when working that down, by saying that it takes 8 heavy botlers to kill a guardsmen squad you are ignoring the IF tactic.

 

But the buffs are a important factor here. Other armies dont tend to generate more hits than they shoot, IF can do that. The same buff on a Ultramarine does not have the same results as that buff on a Imperial Fist.

 

For example 6 centurions with a captain for Ultra get 32 hits with heavy bolters for IF they generate 40 Hits.

 

Edit: Woops, just realized I used a chapter master instead of a captain.

 

For captain it would be 28 hits for ultras, 35 for Fists.

Edited October 22, 2019 by DesSaboteur

[Hellebras]

 

This is a little misleading, Yes it is 8 heavy bolters to kill 10 guardsmen, but that is ignoring some stuff. Exploding bolter shots reduces it down to 6, and if we think about leadership it reduces down to 5. These are also ignoring chapter master and eye of hypnoth auras that will probably be near the centurions.

 

Heavy bolters are also very cheap for the fire power they can now provide to us. And when compared to lascannons from other chapters, our heavy bolters are the superior weapon for both anti-tank and anti-infantry in many situations.

Yes of corse if you stack a lot of Buffs on them they become good. But other Weapons also benefit from that Buffs so yeah.

 

Well, yes. And those buffs are a major reason people are talking about IF heavy bolters. Not only do they benefit from both the chapter tactic and the superdoctrine, but we have access to a range of buffs that can improve them much further. Those other weapons either benefit less from other buffs or can't capitalize on them as well (or at all, in the case of Bolter Drill on more dedicated tank-killers). Which isn't to say they're useless, I'm actually not planning on using the main heavy bolter combinations because I'm a non-competitive player, prefer going full Primaris, and want more command points for other things. So weapons like macro-plasma incinerators seem pretty appealing to me and are likely to be a mainstay of mine.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Hellebras