Vorenus Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I find it amusing that Plague Marines in a Black Legion detachment (assuming Battle-Forged) have a higher Leadership than Plague Marines in a Death Guard detachment (same assumption). Also, I miss the days when all of the Cult Troops (Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Noise Marines) were Fearless. Zephaniah Adriyen 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zephaniah Adriyen Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 (edited) I find it amusing that Plague Marines in a Black Legion detachment (assuming Battle-Forged) have a higher Leadership than Plague Marines in a Death Guard detachment (same assumption). Also, I miss the days when all of the Cult Troops (Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Noise Marines) were Fearless. And imagine the ones in Word Bearers! Re-rolls for them, yeah? Edited to remove my own stupidity. Edited October 19, 2019 by Zephaniah Adriyen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Well ... yeah. I kinda fail to see what's amusing about it, but that observation is certainly correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 True, but those Black Legion Plague Marines, don't have the Death Guard bonus of Inexorable advance. I don't mind that there is a difference between a Chaos marine fully dedicated to Nurgle (plague marine rather than simply marked) based on their original Legion. The issue is the lack of balance between the early books (such as Death guard (especially where later changes like bolter discipline whittled away at the usefulness of their perk) and the later books (chaos marines 2.0, the space marine supplements) in the traits a battle forged force is offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) If they don't count as having moved, wouldn't it basically make plague marine Bolter jocks equal in shooting to terminators or bikes? (Well they would get two shots instead of 4 at max range...) Edited October 20, 2019 by Trevak Dal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Bolter Discipline does not in any way reduce the usefulness of Inexorable Advance. It gave them a new option. That doesn't somehow hurt them. Panzer 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Officer Doofy Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 (edited) Bolter Discipline does not in any way reduce the usefulness of Inexorable Advance. It gave them a new option. That doesn't somehow hurt them.No but it takes value away from it. If they gave all chaos space marines +3 LD that would make the word bearers legion trait to reroll morale less valuable. They are still better off from the additional leadership but other Legions get more out of it. Reduction of value does not mean it hurts them, just means it would be better off as something else now. Example: Let's say you have a ancient vase that was one of a kind worth $20,000. Your two siblings have other ancient artifacts worth $20,000 that are also one of a kind that are totally different. Then your parents found out there was three more vases and gave you and each of your siblings one. Now that there is four, the value of each has gone down. I'm sure the combined worth of two of the four is most likely more then just the original but the individual vase lost value, and your siblings benefitted more from the additional vases then you did. In the sense of opportunity cost, Death Guard lost out on bolter discipline. I for one would much rather have something else then rapid fire at 18" in my legion trait now that I can have it 24" through bolter discipline. Edited October 20, 2019 by Putrid Choir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I find it amusing that Plague Marines in a Black Legion detachment (assuming Battle-Forged) have a higher Leadership than Plague Marines in a Death Guard detachment (same assumption). Also, I miss the days when all of the Cult Troops (Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Noise Marines) were Fearless. They become a whole lot more effective standing in Abaddon's auras to reroll all hits and immunity from morale. I don't think it's that crazy, Abaddon just inspires Chaos to do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Bolter Discipline does not in any way reduce the usefulness of Inexorable Advance. It gave them a new option. That doesn't somehow hurt them.No but it takes value away from it. If they gave all chaos space marines +3 LD that would make the word bearers legion trait to reroll morale less valuable. They are still better off from the additional leadership but other Legions get more out of it. Reduction of value does not mean it hurts them, just means it would be better off as something else now.Example: Let's say you have a ancient vase that was one of a kind worth $20,000. Your two siblings have other ancient artifacts worth $20,000 that are also one of a kind that are totally different. Then your parents found out there was three more vases and gave you and each of your siblings one. Now that there is four, the value of each has gone down. I'm sure the combined worth of two of the four is most likely more then just the original but the individual vase lost value, and your siblings benefitted more from the additional vases then you did. In the sense of opportunity cost, Death Guard lost out on bolter discipline. I for one would much rather have something else then rapid fire at 18" in my legion trait now that I can have it 24" through bolter discipline. Except again it does not take value away from it. They apply in different situations. With both rules, you will almost always get rapid fire, which was not the case before. There is no opportunity cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Officer Doofy Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Bolter Discipline does not in any way reduce the usefulness of Inexorable Advance. It gave them a new option. That doesn't somehow hurt them.No but it takes value away from it. If they gave all chaos space marines +3 LD that would make the word bearers legion trait to reroll morale less valuable. They are still better off from the additional leadership but other Legions get more out of it. Reduction of value does not mean it hurts them, just means it would be better off as something else now.Example: Let's say you have a ancient vase that was one of a kind worth $20,000. Your two siblings have other ancient artifacts worth $20,000 that are also one of a kind that are totally different. Then your parents found out there was three more vases and gave you and each of your siblings one. Now that there is four, the value of each has gone down. I'm sure the combined worth of two of the four is most likely more then just the original but the individual vase lost value, and your siblings benefitted more from the additional vases then you did. In the sense of opportunity cost, Death Guard lost out on bolter discipline. I for one would much rather have something else then rapid fire at 18" in my legion trait now that I can have it 24" through bolter discipline. Except again it does not take value away from it. They apply in different situations. With both rules, you will almost always get rapid fire, which was not the case before. There is no opportunity cost. If you don't move plague marines and are shooting bolters, inexorable advance does nothing, bolter discipline does everything. They don't stack. No value is added from inexorable advance in this case. If it just added 3" to rapid fire weapons instead, it would 100% apply value in parallel to bolter discipline all the time. And considering plague marines can only move 5" you can't even close the 24" to 18" gap in one movement phase to move and double tap. I'm not about to argue opportunity cost to someone who doesn't understand what it is. I'm not saying it has no value. If you run plasmas, or are constantly moving your marines in the 12-18" shooting distance it's nice, but that's the only time it does anything. I do neither of those with my plague marines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I think Cult marines under Black Legion are generally pretty useful. +1 ld is "okay" as it saves a marine or two here or there.... The Run/rapid fire is nice if you are last turn trying to get somewhere but not sacrifice all offense of a unit. Its not great crunch wise but its far from the worst. (granted for Chaos the tactics are a pretty low bar) As of the moment only Black Legion and Renegades are worth playing from the base chaos dex given the others don't have much in the way of strats/relics/traits. At least until PA 2 comes out and helps out six of the Chaos Legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 As of the moment only Black Legion and Renegades are worth playing from the base chaos dex given the others don't have much in the way of strats/relics/traits. At least until PA 2 comes out and helps out six of the Chaos Legions. *laughs in -1 to be hit* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 As of the moment only Black Legion and Renegades are worth playing from the base chaos dex given the others don't have much in the way of strats/relics/traits. At least until PA 2 comes out and helps out six of the Chaos Legions. *laughs in -1 to be hit* I would be very surprised if AL kept the -1 to hit in the future, considering the changes to RG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 As of the moment only Black Legion and Renegades are worth playing from the base chaos dex given the others don't have much in the way of strats/relics/traits. At least until PA 2 comes out and helps out six of the Chaos Legions. *laughs in -1 to be hit* I would be very surprised if AL kept the -1 to hit in the future, considering the changes to RG. RG kept it too. Just under an additional condition of having to be in cover as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 24, 2019 Share Posted October 24, 2019 (edited) Alaitoc kept it through PA1, and PA2 rumors are no changes to Legion Traits so we'll probably keep it too. I think we need updated Traits to compete more favorably with the thinblooded corpse-worshippers, but that's apparently not in the cards at the moment. Edited October 24, 2019 by Iron Father Ferrum Sonoftherubric21 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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