Ranking the Space Marine supplements

[Ishagu]

Tiggy is only as good as the powers he can cast. Ultras have access only to the weakest disciplines.

 

Calgar is great, no doubt about it. Doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere however.

 

Guilliman is over costed, and in a force org slot that ends up costing the army significantly.

 

Iron Hands have CP regeneration also, again, not unique.

 

Nothing they have compares to the deployment and speed of White Scars and RG, the offence of IF and Salamanders or the durability and builds of the IH. All the other chapters get better CT and access to the same re roll auras.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu

[DesSaboteur]

I would rate IF as bottom Tier and Ultras as Top Tier

 

The IF traits is very depending which enemy you face. Against Guard you will have a brutal Bonus, but against Tyras you lose out.

 

The Ultra Trait on the other Hand works pretty good all the Time

Always rapitfireing

Moving whitout -1 with Heavys

Alsways double Shooting with the Repulor Tank

 

 

IH - no more need be said

WS - amazing Stratagems, relics, psychic powers, and traits

UM - the versatility is off the charts, the characters are amazing, access to tremendous amounts of CP without forcing a particular detachment build, and has one of the best relic options from any supplement

Sallies - lots of powerful tools, great Stratagems, but limited by its aggressive nature

RG - provides strong Stratagems and deployment tools, great character, but the limited focus reduces their flexibility as a mono force because it encourages a handful of one off, telegraphed tricks

IF - a good chapter tactic can't detract from wasted potential; too fluff focused for the crunch to work out

 

The key factor here is that the super doctrine for the Imperial Fists is not as situational has you would think from reading it. The army can focus on putting out lots of cheap high rate of fire heavy weapons (see Heavy Bolters) that can focus on clearing horde armies. And if the opponent happens to have a few or a bunch of vehicles than those weapons get beefed up to fight them. 

 

A heavy bolter with the IF chapter tactic and super doctrine, point for point does more damage than other chapters lascannons, and you can easily field 20-25 in a list. That doesnt take into account Seige Breaker and Tank Hunters. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by DesSaboteur

[MeltaRange]

Tiggy is only as good as the powers he can cast.

 

Calgar is great, no doubt about it. Doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere however.

 

Guilliman is over costed, and in a force org slot that ends up costing the army significantly.

 

Iron Hands have CP regeneration also, again, not unique.

 

Nothing they have compares to the deployment and speed of White Scars and RG, the offence of IF and Salamanders or the durability and builds of the IH. All the other chapters get better CT and access to the same re roll auras.

 

I rate Tigirius extremely highly, I think you're sort of ignoring the immense buffs he brings in order to better make your point.  The fact that it's beginning of battle round is a unique defensive buff for Marines.  Cassius, in addition, is just as good.

 

I guess my overall point is that you're looking at it a bit with poo colored glasses.  Adept of the Codex on Calgar for example, it really a lot better than random Lieutenant with Tempered Helm.  First, you're gaining 4CP over another Chapter Master.  Second, Calgar is legit impossible to kill, especially with some Vitrix Honor Guard, so you're likely going to spend a full 4 or 5 turns getting CP back.  

 

I think UM are better than IF and RG but that's just me.

[Ishagu]

Yes he brings extra abilities, I'm not disputing that. You rate them too highly.

A Salamanders psyker can also grant a unit - 1 to hit as well as other bonuses, and the other powers are stronger.

Any IH infantry can serve as bodyguards for their characters, including Centurions if desired.

 

The things that Ultras provide can be improved by other chapters, or there are entirely different and more powerful abilities available that the Ultras can't emulate. They can't even claim to have the best Aggressors anymore, unfortunately.

 

I'm not saying Ultramarines are a weak army, I'm staying that they are the weakest of the supplements. Your examples don't make them better than anyone else in any category.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

I think you Ultramarines are the lowest-tier supplement because you have Cato Sicarius, the in-universe avatar of Matt Ward himself.

[emperorpants]

 

Tiggy is only as good as the powers he can cast.

 

Calgar is great, no doubt about it. Doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere however.

 

Guilliman is over costed, and in a force org slot that ends up costing the army significantly.

 

Iron Hands have CP regeneration also, again, not unique.

 

Nothing they have compares to the deployment and speed of White Scars and RG, the offence of IF and Salamanders or the durability and builds of the IH. All the other chapters get better CT and access to the same re roll auras.

 

I rate Tigirius extremely highly, I think you're sort of ignoring the immense buffs he brings in order to better make your point.  The fact that it's beginning of battle round is a unique defensive buff for Marines.  Cassius, in addition, is just as good.

 

I guess my overall point is that you're looking at it a bit with poo colored glasses.  Adept of the Codex on Calgar for example, it really a lot better than random Lieutenant with Tempered Helm.  First, you're gaining 4CP over another Chapter Master.  Second, Calgar is legit impossible to kill, especially with some Vitrix Honor Guard, so you're likely going to spend a full 4 or 5 turns getting CP back.  

 

I think UM are better than IF and RG but that's just me.

 

Good points, but those things aren't enough to make up the ground against the other chapters.  The issue is the whole jack of all trades thing.  In theory it works out fine.  In practice though, the jack of all trades armies end up being lackluster in direct comparison.  They just don't have the power that other armies have.  They have no unique thing that sets them apart.  They end up not excelling in general because they truly don't excel at anything in particular.

Edited October 21, 2019 by emperorpants

[Brom MKIV]

Sallies is on par with ultras IMO. they have the same issues as ultras without the redeployment, doctrine altering or cp generating abilities.

At least ultras can do pseudo IH with stealthy/scions plus their doctrine effecting abilities from t1. Sallies get veterans of the shlong wars (pisses me off as a alpha legion player) but otherwise they're pretty linear too.

 

What sets IH apart is not just t1 doctrine but how they interact with it. IH have complete autonomy, durability, mobility, inherent force multiplication.

 

IF will be in a similar vein only much less so. They gain force concentration by anti infantry covering all bases. Also fairlly linear.

 

WS, RG  occupy a class of their own. They have adaptability- pregame and in-game, force concentration, and make use of specialist units other chapters cannot or cannot to the same degree.   

[Ishagu]

Salamanders are far, far stronger than Ultramarines. Much higher damage output and more durable in return.

[Brom MKIV]

I don't feel they are far  stronger. Possibly stronger yes but not quite in the same league as the other 4. These two chapters lack the specialization where it matters IMO. 

[Ishagu]

Have you not looked at the stratagems and psychic powers? The spice isn't in the Doctrine.

 

+1 to wound against anything in shooting or combat for 1CP, access to the same ability as the Ultras doctrine, powerful cc and psychic power combos. I wish the Ultras had anything on this level...

Edited October 21, 2019 by Ishagu

[Brom MKIV]

Yep. They're really good but not good enough to carry that book beyond the lower end of marines. Those two chapters still play the marine game. 

The other 4 are playing at a different level for one reason or another.

 

But please elaborate on why you rank sallies above ravens and scars. 

[emperorpants]

Essentially, the ultras are lacking a knockout punch, at least when compared to the other supplements.  They have power, to be sure.  Just not as much as other supplements.  The ultras are 2nd ususally 3rd best at most things, while being the worst at a couple, like strats and psychic.

[emperorpants]

Also, the g-man nerf makes less and less sense to me as the other supplements are released.  At first, I was fine with it, it made sense, it was for the health of the game, etc.  Now though, I'm starting to doubt if it was neccessary, judging by how powerful everything else is.  It almost seems like the ultra's supplement was kept tame precisely because of Gman.  Except he got nerfed into being not worth taking.  If Gman kept his aura, then the ultra's supplement being so much less powerful would make more sense.

 

That said, I do still think that his aura nerf was probably for the best, the only issue is that it wasn't compensated for enough, imo, and the ultras seem to be paying for the aura, even though it doesn't exist anymore.

Edited October 21, 2019 by emperorpants

[Lemondish]

Can I ask exactly why some of you are placing the Ultras so high? The Chapter Tactic isn't great compared to the RG, IH, Salamanders. Is it the Doctrine? It really isn't as big a deal as some of you are rating it to be.

 

The book is swimming with units that can fly now, or move and shoot without penalty, and just using the Salamanders as a comparison:

 

Salamander Strats:

-The Crucible of Battle, 1CP - Literally better outright than anything the Ultras can do. This can make a humble Intercessors squad with Bolter drill wound a t7 tank 20 times at - 2AP in the Tac Doctrine, and that's without a Lieutenant. Let's not even talk about using it on something like a Repulsor, Leviathan, Aggressors, etc

 

-Relentless Determination, 1CP look at this little gem. Suddenly you have the Ultramarines doctrine on a unit, but you can use it during the Dev and Assault doctrines too. That Salamander Repulsor can now move a full 10" and shoot twice with the bonus AP from the Dev Doctrine on turn 1.

 

Maybe you guys haven't played as many games, but the Ultras rules are very much reactive, not necessarily flexible. Sure, if you make a mistake and get your units tagged in the assault phase you can retreat and shoot. Salamanders can instead make the shooting AND assault phase magnitudes more deadly. Let's not even get started with the psychic powers which are far more powerful. What's an Ultramarines player going to do about 6 Centurions that appear in firing range from reserves (RG 1 cp Strat)?

Look beyond the doctrines to get the full picture.

 

This isn't me being negative, as the army is rock solid no matter which chapter you play. I'm just objectively pointing out that the Ultras are easily the weakest of the supplements.

I rate it top 3 because I've played it and personally find having an answer to every problem extremely beneficial rather than entering into a match with a one trick pony.

 

I also rate it there because teleporting assault Centurions are the obvious thing. Folks build and play knowing how to dismantle or counter the obvious thing. Tell me...what is the obvious thing for Ultras? Seal of Oath is key to taking out a big target, but outside of that everything is all about situational power. There's power in knowing your opponent can't lock down your plays so easily because you're wicked flexible.

 

Plus, they're an army with access to a chapter master without costing CP. I rate that very highly.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Lemondish

[Claws and Effect]

Ultras Tactic is better than the RG Tactic, by sheer virtue of not being able to completely negate it with a fairly common mechanic.

 

Ignores cover is everywhere, and every faction has access to it. Sure, we can still get the -1 to hit while we're on terrain, but trying to leverage that makes all of our mobility strats useless. RG got nerfed pretty hard where Chapter Tactic is concerned.

[emperorpants]

To my mind, the ultras chapter tactic is in a bit of a weird space.  The fact that usually doesn't come up very often means, to me anyway, that it can't be considered as good as chapter tactics that are on all the time or work all the time.  However, there are times when the ultra's chapter tactic can be absolutely CLUTCH.  Which means, again at least to me, that you can't consider it "bad".  

[MeltaRange]

 

I rate it top 3 because I've played it and personally find having an answer to every problem extremely beneficial rather than entering into a match with a one trick pony.

 

I also rate it there because teleporting assault Centurions are the obvious thing. Folks build and play knowing how to dismantle or counter the obvious thing. Tell me...what is the obvious thing for Ultras? Seal of Oath is key to taking out a big target, but outside of that everything is all about situational power. There's power in knowing your opponent can't lock down your plays so easily because you're wicked flexible.

 

Plus, they're an army with access to a chapter master without costing CP. I rate that very highly.

 

 

Very well said.  This kinda goes to my point about CP, Ultras have more flexibility to play things like I don't know, Skyfire, because they both have more CP overall and also don't have to spend it on Chapter-specific abilities.

[Mandragola]

This is a fun exercise. I guess we'll see once armies start to reach tables.

 

Personally I think IH are still on a tier of their own. Their flyers in particular are just fantastic, and able to take on more or less any opponent one way or the other.

 

However, it might be that Fists beat IH. There are specific options Fists can take, particularly things like Sicarans and Deredeos, that are absolute murder to planes. Even a Fists Impulsor is a real threat to anything with fly.

[RandomMarine]

Any replulsor with a CM is a must kill for any flyer list

[Hellebras]

I would rate IF as bottom Tier and Ultras as Top Tier

 

The IF traits is very depending which enemy you face. Against Guard you will have a brutal Bonus, but against Tyras you lose out.

 

Our doctrine doesn't help against Tyranids, but an Imperial Fists army that's built to leverage it probably won't have much trouble taking on those monsters anyway. Our tactic is still murderous against them. Some of our less situational stratagems are still handy there too, and the devastator centurions trick being less useful there just means that we have more command points to spend on other stratagems. Doctrines aren't everything, which is why Salamanders as an example still look pretty good. The only case where i think we might genuinely suffer is against some Tau builds, and even then we're no worse off than many chapters.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“Tiggy is only as good as the powers he can cast. Ultras have access only to the weakest disciplines."

 

Tiggy can reroll all psychic tests and deny the witch... that alone is huge then there is the +1 for both... it’s very reliable to cast Null Zone which can be a game winner. The -1 to hit is free and automatic. He is hands down one of the best psykers in the game.

 

“Calgar is great, no doubt about it. Doesn't offer anything you can't get elsewhere however.”

 

I disagree. Automatic 2 CP - no other chapter has that. He nets you a sum total 4 CP... that’s almost a Battalion. He is also one of the best melee characters for Space Marines as well and very resilient as well.

 

“Guilliman is over costed, and in a force org slot that ends up costing the army significantly.”

 

Still cheaper than either daemon Primarch and arguably better too.

[domsto]

 

 

The key factor here is that the super doctrine for the Imperial Fists is not as situational has you would think from reading it. The army can focus on putting out lots of cheap high rate of fire heavy weapons (see Heavy Bolters) that can focus on clearing horde armies. And if the opponent happens to have a few or a bunch of vehicles than those weapons get beefed up to fight them. 

 

A heavy bolter with the IF chapter tactic and super doctrine, point for point does more damage than other chapters lascannons, and you can easily field 20-25 in a list. That doesnt take into account Seige Breaker and Tank Hunters. 

 

But even a beefed up Heavy Bolter isn't as effective as Hellblasters, which are by far the best weapon Marines have against Vehicals,Monsters,Battlesuits. Also Lascannons are not a good comparison because they are actually really bad.

Also i think a Heavy Bolter lacks Hordkilling potential, only 3 Shots aren't enougt to kill off a Horde of Greenskins or Guardsmen. Intersessors with Boltrifles or Autoboltguns are more effectiv pointwise.

So i would,n say the Heavy Bolter is the answer for IF. Yes their traits makes a rather bad weapon as the Heavy Bolter somewhat useable but still not good in my opinion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

IF DevCents with heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters in a Siege Cohort detachment is absolutely scary.

[Lemondish]

IF DevCents with heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters in a Siege Cohort detachment is absolutely scary.

Provided that remains. We've seen weirder things get nerfed after all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was listening to FLG podcast this morning and they were talking about nerfing Salamanders next.