Master of Ambush and seize the initiative

[dode74]

Continuation of this thread

 

The question is whether seizing the initiative happens before or after Master of Ambush.

 

Master of Ambush states it happens "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins", which is fairly clear.

 

Seizing the initiative is clarified within individual mission briefing pages.  As an example, this is the one from CA18 EW mission "Narrow the Search":

 

 

DEPLOYMENT

The players roll off and the winner determines

which of the standard deployment maps is

used in the battle (see the Warhammer 40,000

rulebook) and picks one of the deployment

zones for their army. Their opponent uses the

other deployment zone.

The player who did not pick their deployment

zone then deploys their entire army first.

Their opponent then deploys their entire

army. A player’s models must be set up wholly

within their deployment zone.

 

FIRST TURN

The player who finished setting up their army

first chooses who takes the first turn. If they

decide to take the first turn, their opponent

can roll a dice: on a 6, they seize the initiative,

and they get the first turn instead

It states within the subheading "FIRST TURN" that this is when the seize happens.  So does the seize happen *during* the first turn?

 

Some have stated this was clarified in an FAQ, but I can't find reference to it in the current crop of FAQs  Is anyone able to shed any light on a source for the suggestion that seize happens before MoA please?

[BluejayJunior]

The sub heading is for deciding who has the first turn, not for what happens on the first turn. 

I am pretty sure seize the initiative happens prior the the first turn. 

[Morticon]

All strats and abilities with the wording: " "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins" happen after seize. 

The battle cannot be started without knowing who starts it- hence the consistency.

[dode74]

The sub heading is for deciding who has the first turn, not for what happens on the first turn. 

I am pretty sure seize the initiative happens prior the the first turn. 

That interpretation of the subheading is certainly one.  Another is that the "FIRST TURN" is a "process" which includes the seize roll.

 

 

All strats and abilities with the wording: " "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins" happen after seize. 

 

The battle cannot be started without knowing who starts it- hence the consistency.

The battle starts at deployment, I believe.  The person who is going first cannot take their first turn until they know they are going first, but under the "process" mentioned above we *do* know who is going first, it just changes if the initiative is seized.  That part there is part of the FIRST TURN according to the mission descriptions.

 

ITC specifies otherwise - it uses the seize roll as part of the "Pre-Game, Deployment and Setup" section so it is distinctly before the first turn there.  I'm asking about GW missions, though, which have a FIRST TURN heading which *includes* the seize.  Specifically, I would like some FAQ or similar which confirms that, as Morticon says, "strats and abilities with the wording: " "At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins" happen after seize. "

[BluejayJunior]

All the subheadings for the missions are giving you the parameters of the mission. They are the guidelines for that mission, not processes. "The Armies", "The Battlefield", "Acceptable Casualties", "Deployment", "Victory Conditions", and "Battle Length" are not processes. They are there to tell you how to play the mission. 

Consider that things like the Forlorn Fury stratagem have been consistently used after seize the initiative since the Blood Angels codex was released. If that was not the intention, it would have been FAQ'd by now to correct that. 

And while ITC isn't GW, they do have a close working relationship, and in this edition try to make limited changes to the rules. Given their closeness with GW and the fact that some are playtesters, it is unlikely that their pre-game phase is different from how the game is supposed to be played. 

[dode74]

 

 

X are not processes. They are there to tell you how to play the mission. 

That's pretty much what a process is, though: it tells you how to do that thing.

 

I get and understand that it has been done that way.  I am not disputing that and want it to be that way as a RG player myself.  What I am asking for is clarification, somewhere in writing, that seize happens before the first turn rather than during it as per the heading.

 

GW rules writing is screwy sometimes - this could well be one of those times.  I don't think ITC rules qualifies as "this is what GW want" because we know there are *some* changes.

Edited October 25, 2019 by dode74

[BluejayJunior]

 

 I don't think ITC rules qualifies as "this is what GW want" because we know there are *some* changes.

I get that. There are certainly a couple ITC changes that aren't necessarily that same as GW. But ITC, Adepticon, and I think every other big tournament has been doing it this way. My view is that if that wasn't the way it was supposed to be played, GW would have come out and made that clear in an FAQ at some point. 

I could have sworn that this was addressed in an FAQ somewhere. Maybe it was in the Designer's Commentary, which doesn't seem to appear on the FAQ page anymore. 

I think at this point the argument is, everyone is doing it this way and there isn't anything saying it isn't supposed to be this way, so it must be working as intended. 

[dode74]

I get that ITC etc try to play the way it's supposed to be played.  And I get (and am content, especially as an RG player, with the fact) that this is how it is played.  But where I disagree is where you say that "there isn't anything saying it isn't supposed to be this way" - the fact of the matter is that there is a section titled FIRST TURN in each mission, and within that section is the rule on seizing.  That means seizing is part of the FIRST TURN just like resolving attacks is part of the Shooting Phase.  I *want* it to be in an FAQ or designers' commentary, and that specifically is what I am after.  Because as it stands the FIRST TURN includes seizing, and I don't think *any* of us think that is correct.

[BluejayJunior]

If that is the way you interpret that section, I guess I can't convince you otherwise. 

I don't think that is the correct interpretation. I believe that it is the guideline for determining who gets first turn, not what happens in the first turn. Because that is the way all the other sections are written. As parameters for the mission, not as things turns of the game.

I haven't seen anyone else arguing for your interpretation. The consensus of the order of events and when the first turn happens does not support your interpretation.

But if none of this has convinced you, then I guess we are at an impasse and further discussion will not solve anything. 

[dode74]

Ok, let me put this in context: this is not my interpretation, it is what I see as a plausible interpretation which I would like debunked through something in writing.  I'm an RG player and can foresee someone trying this interpretation with me, and I want a way to shut it down.  I don't think it's the right interpretation, and I've not played it that way, but when "that guy" comes along and uses it I want to be able to say that it is bollocks and show him why.  "That's the consensus" and "this is how we've always done it" doesn't cut the mustard in such circumstances, hence I am asking for something written which nixes this interpretation which we both agree is very likely incorrect.

Edited October 26, 2019 by dode74

[Dr_Ruminahui]

From the language used, it is obviously for determining who gets first turn, not that it occurs on the first turn.

 

Plus, 40K is played in player turns which occur in game rounds.  While this may occur on the first round, it can't occur on the first player turn as you don't know which player's turn it is, and the first player turn can't begin until you know whose turn it is.

Edited October 26, 2019 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Jolemai]

Seize happens before the first Battle Round. Things like Master of Ambush, Forlorn Fury, etc, occur during the first Battle Round but before the first turn.

 

I believe this has been discussed before in the OR if you want some extra context.

[dode74]

From the language used, it is obviously for determining who gets first turn, not that it occurs on the first turn.

 

Plus, 40K is played in player turns which occur in game rounds.  While this may occur on the first round, it can't occur on the first player turn as you don't know which player's turn it is, and the first player turn can't begin until you know whose turn it is.

Again, that depends on whether the first turn is merely that turn in which the first player goes, or includes the seize roll as per the "FIRST TURN" paragraph in the book.  It wouldn't be the first time GW has used the same terminology for two distinct things leading to confusion and the opportunity to game things (looks at wounds).  The "language used" is not distinct in this case - it *is* distinct for ITC.

 

Look, I get that this is the opinion of everyone here.  It's *my* opinion too.  That's not the point, though: the point is that when "that guy" decides that this is the argument there needs to be something solid to come back with.  If there are FAQ etc which can help then that would be great, but I can't find anything.

[Slasher956]

They need to put a timing order into the rule book faq... there’s a few things like vanguard moves which are ‘after setup befor the 1st players turn’ which could be before or after a seize attempt...

 

However it’s my feeling that seize is the last pregame element ...after that you go into the 1st battle round where you get the use of strats and rules that are before the 1st player turn then you go into the 1st players 1st turn which starts at the start of their movement phase.