Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[b1soul]

I wouldn't say the EC in PoH are one-dimensional

[StrangerOrders]

I wouldn't say the EC in PoH are one-dimensional

Smarmy, condescending and egomaniacal to the point of the point of being difficult to take seriously? The main difference in PoH is for once being allowed to be competent enough to actually start to justify it.

 

Its a really poor showing still compared to how interesting and multi-faceted they are shown in the Primarchs books and the Fabius trilogy (well, duology for now). There it is played as tragic, well-deserved and you actually get a very good idea of how they tick. You actually buy how the Legion was doomed from the start, the internal tensions and stress that did not just drive the legion to a psychological breaking point but also Fulgrim himself. They show, like with many of the better-written legions, that the presumptions others draw on them are more a sign of ignorance than any real truth. That the arrogance, while real, was in large part a desperate attempt to recover from oblivion proliferated by an utter refusal to become worthless and forgotten, that through sheer determination they overshot the mark and ended up breaking rather than succeeding.

 

Compared to that... idk, I find them hard to take seriously in most books and the most I can say about PoH is that they are actually threatening. The closest thing is the Palatine Blade and even he is about as deep as a middling Shounen hero.

 

Read Angel Exterminatus and Fulgrim and you are left wondering how on earth they functioned at all for two centuries much less how at all managed to be a successful legion. There is no real tragedy in their fall, heck it honestly just seems like they added body-horror to what was already a bunch of egotistical peacocks. 

 

But this is dangerously close to unrelated to the book.

 

I am still holding out for someone to share details about the mortal characters (the not-Astarte or Malcador ones).

Edited November 29, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[mc warhammer]

“They show, like with many of the better-written legions, that the presumptions others draw on them are more a sign of ignorance than any real truth”

 

really dig that. you can substitute “ignorance” for ‘prejudice’ too

[StrangerOrders]

“They show, like with many of the better-written legions, that the presumptions others draw on them are more a sign of ignorance than any real truth”

 

really dig that. you can substitute “ignorance” for ‘prejudice’ too

Definitely, and I think it applies to alot of Legions.

 

One of my favourite examples is the Ultramarines, we are repeatedly told by other legions that they are heartless, cold and even cowardly. Yet we see a ton of UM give in to blinding rage when pushed far enough, look at the guy that fought Kurze, he died but he kept charging the Primarch after losing most of his skull and organs. Or Guilliman, who literally lost his chill on Terra and chocked out a Bloodthirster (not even going to mention the 'too angry to die of space' or '2v1 Angron and Lorgar' incidents). Push a Smurf far enough and that 'chill' turns into 'blinding rage'.

 

Or the Scars, who have a rep for being flighty. They are shown in their books to be one of the most suicidally stubborn and commited legions when they commit to a course and take a LONG time to get there.

 

I think you can find a trait for almost every legion really that the others completely miss.

[mc warhammer]

the rout, the alpha legion, etc

 

the night lords may have sadly become their reputation over time

 

which leads to my issue with most of mcneill’s characterisation; he writes the stereotype

[b1soul]

The EC were always extremely proud and tended to overcompensate. That's their fundamental character. Guys like Saul Tarvitz were the exception by the late GC.

 

Cario is arrogant, but he's also genuinely conflicted and still adheres to principles of honour. His end is both triumphant and tragic. Probably the best written EC character in BL fiction (bar Clonelord's Fabius).

 

Eidolon is also done very well. His death and surgeries have brought him to a new level of consciousness/experience. He's insane but also shrewder than before.

 

Frankly, I found the EC in PoH to be multi-faceted and interesting. I don't think they're one-dimensional in the novel just because their trademark pride isn't downplayed.

[bluntblade]

They were also an antagonist faction, sharing pagetime with the Death Guard. On that basis I think Wraight achieved a lot.

[StrangerOrders]

The EC were always extremely proud and tended to overcompensate. That's their fundamental character. Guys like Saul Tarvitz were the exception by the late GC.

 

Cario is arrogant, but he's also genuinely conflicted and still adheres to principles of honour. His end is both triumphant and tragic. Probably the best written EC character in BL fiction (bar Clonelord's Fabius).

 

Eidolon is also done very well. His death and surgeries have brought him to a new level of consciousness/experience. He's insane but also shrewder than before.

 

Frankly, I found the EC in PoH to be multi-faceted and interesting. I don't think they're one-dimensional in the novel just because their trademark pride isn't downplayed.

What you described with Cario is what I said, a middling shounen character.

 

To be fair though, alot of BL is functionally not that different from the darker shounen series.

 

Your Eidolon point is... I am not sure how to phrase it. It is quite a statement to say that it is an improvement that he is competent post-death, that the LORD COMMANDER PRIMUS needed to be decapitated to be a competent tactician. That is actually the most apt description for how the EC have been written in most of the HH, literally losing their heads is an improvement. 

 

I also have an issue with 'trademark pride', by that logic we should be offended that every White Scar isnt a stereotype or that Ultramarines aren't all heartless accountants. Citing Tarvitz annoys me because it is really damned silly how often the more poorly-written legions get a likeable guy because he is functionally not one of theirs.

 

The EC were supposed to be perfectionists, genius warriors whose arrogance sprouted from a needing to be better just to be considered acceptable. Not because of themselves but because the other legions were literally looking to delete them from extinction because there were companies at some points bigger than their entire legion.

 

Akurduana isnt a smarmy fool that spends his time reflecting about how great he is. He is excellent and frustrated that he is only good at one thing, he is so used to be skilled that he can't tell that he is condescending to others.

 

Fabius is a traumatized wreck masquerading as a genius because if he stops to reflect for even one minute he would fall to pieces. He cannot except 'good enough' because he is blindingly trying to fix the universe (despite being so broken as to only make nightmares).

 

Abdemon is supremely confident but wears it with a calm assurance that actively unnerves others, which is balanced by a melancholic tendency for guilt and a prodding sense of humour.

 

Even arrogant brutes like Narvo are balanced by a deeply-entrenched respect for mortal soldiers, not because he thinks highly of them but because he thinks that he is so above them that he is impressed that they try anyway.

 

Being over-confident or a perfectionist are interesting traits. But the way they are written across the HH it is rarely justified or deep. It is the exact same sort of arrogance and has little to do with the individual, because the EC have few real individuals. Eidolon is a crystallization of that and Saul is more Loken-in-Purple than anything that would be an EC character (I'd say Luna Wolf, but their character was replaced with 'Cthonian Savagery' and topknots at some point).

 

That does not make PoH any less of a great book and the book does a great job with Deathguard but few BL writers ever do much with villains. Wraight deserves the praise he makes on the grounds of at least making them competent. 

 

We are drifting far from the book here, I am thinking of posting some EC reviews on the Necromancy thread tomorrow if you want to keep it going there though.

 

And my standing request for mortal-PoV info is there if any folks who have Valdor are feeling kind enough to share!

Edited November 29, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[b1soul]

Well, I thought the relatively complex characterisation of the EC was a strength of the PoH (and I was pleasantly surprised by it), but of course, everyone's got their own opinion.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Problem is, is that when you start to characterise a whole legion around one or 2 prominent characters who only display the extreme end of the deity they have chosen to follow it often becomes easier (from a writers perspective) to let the legion assume fixed one way characteristics rather than display a "variety" of traits.

 

I have to admit, i still adopt a "stereptypical" view of legions when i think about them.

 

Death guard and iron hands (unstoppable slow trudging tank men)

 

Blood angels and space wolves, borderline bezerkers who would use a fully loaded bolter to bludgeon enemies to death with.

 

Ultras, best "soldiers"/generic class.

 

Obviously we all know the above are bogus but in some more recent novels like Dark Imperium where the Dark Angel and space Marine Primaris are the most BLATANT form of stereotyping i have seen in a long time it does quite urk me to see it when i thought we had come on much further in establishing legionnaires as much more than one dimensional beings tied to the past chliche of their legions.

[Knockagh]

Im really enjoying this little gem. Really wetting the appetite for unification wars.

Am I the only person who would say a resounding yes to a ‘tales of Achilla’ a few shorts based in pre unity terra?

[Huggtand]

 

Of all the sources to draw from, Inferno is likely not wisest one. Not least of which being that the Sixth and Fifteenth specifically did ziltch during the Unification Wars.

 

 

That´s not completely correct.

 

From Inferno: 

 

"like the other proto-Legions of the trefoil, the VI was largely held back from full engagement in armed conflict during the closing stages of the Unification Wars and the re-conquest of the solar system."

 

"It was almost a decade after the Great Crusade had broken free from the confines of the Sol System and spread out to distant stars that the VI Legion was to be unleashed openly en masse against an enemy. What occured in the previous decade remains entirely lost, even to the Space Wolves"

 

So the VI where not held back from action during the Unification Wars and the re-conquest of the solar system, they were just sparingly used. Same with the Great Crusade; the where not inactive during the first period, just that they were not deployed openly as a whole Legion before a decade in.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Kelborn
Color changed for better reading

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

Of all the sources to draw from, Inferno is likely not wisest one. Not least of which being that the Sixth and Fifteenth specifically did ziltch during the Unification Wars.

 

 

That´s not completely correct.

 

From Inferno: 

 

"like the other proto-Legions of the trefoil, the VI was largely held back from full engagement in armed conflict during the closing stages of the Unification Wars and the re-conquest of the solar system."

 

"It was almost a decade after the Great Crusade had broken free from the confines of the Sol System and spread out to distant stars that the VI Legion was to be unleashed openly en masse against an enemy. What occured in the previous decade remains entirely lost, even to the Space Wolves"

 

So the VI where not held back from action during the Unification Wars and the re-conquest of the solar system, they were just sparingly used. Same with the Great Crusade; the where not inactive during the first period, just that they were not deployed openly as a whole Legion before a decade in.

 

Tbf, going by Inferno, you'd have to be a bit nuts to try to use the VIth at that stage. Kinda took Russ to make them usable. 

 

Kind of a funny idea how many Legions were really useless bordering on defective without their Primarchs at the helm. Kinda supports this book's more 'always going to use Marines' stance, since if you built these Legions on the assumption of never getting a Primarch then you are sort of an idiot.

 

Kinda wonder how compatible these ideas are though, especially with the new Dark Angels lore we have specifically citing a guy who has served 250 years.

 

Although if we go by Betrayal then we can recall that the bulk of the Alpha stages (the 2k of each Legion raised at all at once before any gene-lines went into full production) were actually raised from the Emp's household guards and companions. Thats the loophole I've used for rationalizing Akurduana being 300 and it could work here as well.

Edited December 16, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Were all legions in existence by the end of the unification wars? I know the salamanders were (under dragon warriors name at the time) and they were sent into the earth to fight some horrific war against self repairing machines.

 

My logical jump is that if the salamanders were being used towards end of the unification wars it stands to reason that at least 18 legions must be serving.

[bluntblade]

Yeah, the proto-Sallies existed in large numbers before the Tempest Galleries.

[StrangerOrders]

Yeah, the proto-Sallies existed in large numbers before the Tempest Galleries.

About 20k iirc. With 1k making it out. 

 

Emp even lampshaded that getting almost wiped out is sort of a part of their nature. Along with never quite dying out.

[Knockagh]

Finished this over my coffee break this morning. Took it pretty slowly and went off to the black books a couple of times. A few head scratchers here and there but I didn’t find anything that caused me to think Chris had made a mistake. If anything the book portrayed a world that was completely upside down were truth and fact are made up as you go along. The writer of the black books is as much a part of that as anyone.

CW does an amazing job here, building the world of pre imperium unity beautifully. I’m super excited now for unity wars. (Which hopefully this book was designed, at least in part, for)

World building in 40k is unashamedly my thing. I can take or leave combat but great worlds blow me away and CW is truly a master of perilous worlds. The character creation from mercenaries to gene architects; pre unity Primarchs to the first high lords are just splendid.

And no doubt the lens lighting up, first appearance of our beloved marines gave me tingles.

Knockout year for Wraight.

[byrd9999]

I wonder if they'll address the 2 missing legions?

 

i hope they don't, I prefer the mystery, but it will be a pretty big elephant in the room if there are only 18 legions before the primarchs have been found...

[The_son_of_Dorn]

 

Yeah, the proto-Sallies existed in large numbers before the Tempest Galleries.

 

About 20k iirc. With 1k making it out. 

 

Emp even lampshaded that getting almost wiped out is sort of a part of their nature. Along with never quite dying out.

Tempest Galleries is one hell of a thing to read about by the way. Would reccomend it to anyone.

 

Back on topic.

[bluntblade]

I fully agree.

[Dumah]

I wonder if they'll address the 2 missing legions?

 

i hope they don't, I prefer the mystery, but it will be a pretty big elephant in the room if there are only 18 legions before the primarchs have been found...

 

They almost certainly won't. At least not in a clear, unambiguous way.

[Knockagh]

I would imagine it’s unavoidable. I can’t think how they could cover a period where 20 legions were active in any detail without reference to them. Leaving them out would need some slapstick comedy in it which would be awful. No reason to deal with why they vanished but their existence and involvement can’t be ignored.

Personally I’ve no problem with telling their whole story but I know most will disagree. I don’t find the missing gap cool I just find it annoying.

[StrangerOrders]

I would imagine it’s unavoidable. I can’t think how they could cover a period where 20 legions were active in any detail without reference to them. Leaving them out would need some slapstick comedy in it which would be awful. No reason to deal with why they vanished but their existence and involvement can’t be ignored.

Personally I’ve no problem with telling their whole story but I know most will disagree. I don’t find the missing gap cool I just find it annoying.

Well, you did reread the Black Books. Its pretty noticeable that the Legions were all over the place across Terra and seemed pretty able to operate independently.

 

It is stupidly easy to avoid two of the Legions showing up really, Terra is a big place and everything indicates that it is insanely dense in enemies.

 

The Solar conquest literally had hundreds of entities and we have a number of examples of the Legions being next to autonomous even at this point.

 

The only big problem would be the nemesis world, but even that (which was noted to be a ridiculous force commitment) was only eight of the Legions mobilizing.

 

If they managed to stretch out the Heresy this much, with so few Legions per average book, this should be child's play.

 

I am pretty dubious of a Unification Series though.

 

EDIT: Incidentally, when is the book itself out again?

Edited December 20, 2019 by StrangerOrders

[Alpharius902]

Main release is February 4, 2020

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I wonder if they'll address the 2 missing legions?

 

i hope they don't, I prefer the mystery, but it will be a pretty big elephant in the room if there are only 18 legions before the primarchs have been found...

They almost certainly won't. At least not in a clear, unambiguous way.

Only when 40k has its own version of End Times, aka sales go down and writers had enough of the setting