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My two strongest Space Marine Lists @2k


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#1
antique_nova

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First List

2000 pts

Battalion Detachment - Raven Guard Successors - 5 CP - 5 Units - 398 pts
[WARLORD] 1x Captain with Jump Pack - 1x Thunder Hammer - 1x Bolt Pistol - 1x Storm Shield - 143 pts
[Warlord Trait] Master of Ambush

1x Chaplin with Jump Pack - 1x Crozius Arcanum - 1x Bolt Pistol - 90 pts
[Litany] Mantra of Strength - Plus 1 attack, strength and damage
[Litany] Canticle of Hate - Plus 2” to charge and +3” to consolidate for all friendly units within 6”
[Relic] Benediction of Fury - +2S - AP2 - D3 - Each unmodified 6 to wound inflicts 1 mortal wound.
[Stratagem] Master of Sanctity - Can use two Litanies per battle

5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts
5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts
5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts

Battalion Detachment - Raven Guard Successors- 5 CP - 5 Units - 460 pts
1x Captain with Jump Pack - 1x Thunder Hammer - 1x Storm Shield - 1x Bolt Pistol - 143 pts
[Warlord Trait] Silent Stalker or Imperium’s Sword
[Relic] Raven’s Fury or Master Crafted Thunder Hammer

1x Lieutenant with Jump Pack - 1x Power Sword - 1x Chainsword - 1x Bolt Pistol - 82 pts
[Relic] The Burning Blade or Teeth of Terra

5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts
5x Intercessors - 5x Auto Bolt Rifle - 5x Bolt Pistol – Frag & Krak Grenades - 90pts
5x Intercessors - 5x Auto Bolt Rifle - 5x Bolt Pistol – Frag & Krak Grenades - 90pts

Battalion Detachment - Raven Guard Successors - 5 CP - 8 Units - 1141 pts
1x Captain with Jump Pack - 1x Thunder Hammer - 1x Storm Shield - 1x Bolt Pistol - 143 pts
[Warlord Trait] Swift & Deadly or Shadow Master
[Relic] Raven’s Fury or Master Crafted Thunder Hammer

1x Librarian with Jump Pack - 1x Force Sword - 1x Bolt Pistol - 116 pts
[Spells] Smite - Might of Heroes - Null Zone
[Relic] The Tome of Malcador (Spectral Blade, Shadowstep or Enveloping Darkness)

5x Intercessors - 5x Auto Bolt Rifle - 5x Bolt Pistol – Frag & Krak Grenades - 90pts
5x Intercessors - 5x Auto Bolt Rifle - 5x Bolt Pistol – Frag & Krak Grenades - 90pts
5x Intercessors - 5x Auto Bolt Rifle - 5x Bolt Pistol – Frag & Krak Grenades - 90pts

3x Centurions - 6x Melta Guns - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 204 pts
3x Centurions - 6x Melta Guns - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 204 pts
3x Centurions - 6x Melta Guns - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 204 pts

1999 pts - 18 CP - 18 Units



Chapter Tactics

Master Artisans - When a unit with this tactic fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot or fight with, you can re-roll a single hit roll and you can re-roll a single wound roll.

Whirlwind of Rage - When resolving an attack made with a melee weapon by a model with this tactic in a turn in which that model's unit made a charge move, was charged or performed a Heroic Intervention, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.



Command Point Usage

8CP - Warlord Traits & Relics (Number of relics depends on my enemy)
6CP - Infiltrating all characters (When necessary)
3CP - Infiltrating/deepstriking centurions (When necessary)



Notes

I have screen clearing groups if need be and this is what they'll normally look like below. I may even infiltrate them if I wish to get free movement.

Screen Clearing Group 1:
1x Smash Captain
1x Smash Lieutenant

Screen Clearing Group 2:
1x Smash Captain
1x Smash Librarian (with S9 spell)

Screen Clearing Group 3:
1x Smash Captain
1x Smash Chaplin

All characters will clear any forward waves and make way for my centurions to drop next turn. While the intercessors steadily move forward, while pouring out a hail storm of bolter fire. The centurions have melta guns so that they can shoot more on the turn they arrive and it solves my lack of anti-tank shooting and they'll be much more useful against flyers than if they had flamers instead. Plus, I hardly ever get to use my flamers anyway or when I do, they're against non-ideal targets. This also allows me to navigate around terrain better to shoot my targets.

And for anyone curious, my army composition looks something like:

1/3 characters (anti-anything that isn't a horde)
1/3 troops (anti-horde and anti-character)
1/3 elites (anti-anything that isn't a plane)

The golden ratio is real! tongue.png

The characters are my scalpels, while the intercessors and centurions are the hammer and the scouts? Well, they're my pillow. Distraction pillow or comforting pillow. smile.png

The chapter tactics were chosen to help the characters become much more reliable and incidentally, they help all the other small units as well, so I don't need to rely on having a captain, chapter master or lieutenant nearby as often as I used to, which frees up them up from doing too much buffing duties and go wreck censored.gif in general.

I dropped the aggressors in favour for all centurions, because I want to keep moving, they hit harder and they're much tougher than aggressors. Plus, I already have more than enough anti-horde firepower at 30" every turn (24" bolt weapons with 6" movement on average minus the centurions).




Second List

2000 pts

Battalion Detachment - Raven Guard Successors - 5 CP - 10 Units - 1321 pts
1x Captain with Jump Pack - 1x Thunder Hammer - 1x Bolt Pistol - 1x Storm Shield - 143 pts
[Warlord Trait] Silent Stalker or Imperium’s Sword
[Relic] Adamantine Mantle or Master Crafted Thunder Hammer

1x Chaplin with Jump Pack - 1x Crozius Arcanum - 1x Bolt Pistol - 90 pts
[Warlord Trait] Imperium’s Sword (If an RG successor captain hasn’t already taken a trait)
[Litany] Mantra of Strength - Plus 1 attack, strength and damage
[Relic] Benediction of Fury - +2S - AP2 - D3 - Each unmodified 6 to wound inflicts 1 mortal wound.

5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts
5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts
5x Scouts - 5x Boltgun - 5x Bolt Pistol - 55pts

3x Centurions - 6x Flamers - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 156 pts
3x Centurions - 6x Melta Guns - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 204 pts
3x Centurions - 6x Melta Guns - 3x Siege Drills - 3x Hurricane Bolters - 204 pts

 

4x Centurion Devastator - 4x Grav-Cannon and Grav-Amp - 4x Hurricane Bolter - 280 pts

 

1x Impulsor - 2x Storm Bolters - 79 pts

 

Master Artisans
Hungry for battle

Spearhead Detachment - Imperial Fist - 1 CP - 4 Units - 376 pts
[WARLORD] 1x Captain on Bike - 1x Storm Shield - 1x Twin Boltgun - 1x Bolt Pistol - 100 pts
[Warlord Trait] 1st: Hand of Dorn
[Relic] Eye of Hypnoth - Reroll 1s to wound within 6” of this unit.

1x Thunderfire Cannon - 1x Gunner - 1x Servo-Harness - 1x Plasma Cutter - 1x Flamer - 92 pts
1x Thunderfire Cannon - 1x Gunner - 1x Servo-Harness - 1x Plasma Cutter - 1x Flamer - 92 pts
1x Thunderfire Cannon - 1x Gunner - 1x Servo-Harness - 1x Plasma Cutter - 1x Flamer - 92 pts

Supreme Command Detachment - White Scars - 1 CP - 3 Units - 300 pts
3x Khan on Bike - 3x Twin Boltgun - 3x Khan’s Spear - 300 pts

[Relic] Wrath of the Heavens - Has a 16" movement and in the movement phase can move over models and terrain as it they weren't there.

1997 pts - 10 + D3 CP - 17 Units

 

Command Point Usage
4CP - Warlord Traits & Relics (Depends on my enemy)
3CP - Deep Striking Centurions (Almost always)
1CP - Gravitic Amplification (Almost always)

Notes

Pretty self explanatory.

Imperial Fist Detachment: Sits and shoots from the back. Priority targets are enemy screening units to make way for the Raven Guard Successor assault in turn 2. Whirlwinds were taken out, because I find their damage lacking and sometimes can be hard to hide all three.

Raven Guard Successor Detachment: Scout ahead and deep strike into the enemy's face. The melta centurions and grav centurions are for extra insurance against vehicle/Monster/Elite heavy armies, that my Imperial Fists would have trouble with and just in case I'm unable to pull off a charge on the turn they deep strike in, because there is almost nothing in the game more frustrating that deep striking in and then being unable to pull off a charge roll! That's why I also have the grav centurions Also, the scouts form the first outer layer anti-DS defence. The chaplain is in this detachment, so he can provide full rerolls for miss hits in combat for the centurions. The Impulsor is also there to protect my characters, provide that extra tough carnifex distract, be a road block, tie up enemy back line shooty units and to soak up enemy smites and block enemy LOS to my other units if need be.

White Scars Detachment: Your most mobile force. I chose this over a Dark Angel's detachment with Sammael and two jump captains with relic blades. Sure, bikes can't fly, but these guys have greater strength and a much better charge range and are tougher to kill. They have a 27" average charge range per turn! That's 15x S8 AP3 DD3 attacks at WS2 with rerolls of 1s between the three khans!

 

Put it this way, by turn 2 or 3, I can put 9 assault centurions, 3 biker khans and 5 centurion devastators anywhere on the board in your face! While a biker chapter master, 3 TFC and a smash captain and chaplin guard my rear line.

 

Tactically speaking, there is nothing in this army that you can't negate at any stage of the game. I have enough anti-screening units that you can't possible stop me from pulling off any favourable charges, unless you're Orks or Tyranids or Chaos cultist spamming.

 

Eliminators were "eliminated" from this list, because I already have very good OOLOS shooting and most characters are now either too well protected or the eliminators are overkill when paired with my artillery.

 

 

Third List

[ REDACTED BY THE ORDER OF THE =][= ]


Edited by antique_nova, 30 January 2020 - 12:27 AM.

Competitive list builder who lives, breathes and plays in Grand Tournaments.

 

My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#2
Brom MKIV

Brom MKIV

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Screen clearing with smash captains and libbys..?

 

Honestly I don't see this list having much gas man. No offense but low RoF with move penalties low resilience no anti tank no anti horde. 18 cp but what to use it on? Feels like 1 too many battalions.


..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#3
antique_nova

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No offence, but are we even looking at the same list?

 

What does RoF mean?

 

Move penalties? This army is extremely mobile with deepstrikes and jump packs all over the place.

 

Low resilience? Storm shields on my captains and my character can hide behind a butt load of scouts from enemy firepower. 6 centurions and 6 aggressors. My entire army gets cover out in the open more than 12" away and if they're in a building as well, it's -1 to shoot them.

 

No anti-tank? I have 2 smash captains, 1 power fist lieutenant, 1 libby who can go S9, 6, aggressors and 6 centurions who can reliably deepstrike out of combat within a 7" charge and full rerolls.

 

No anti-horde? I have a character who can specialise in hordes and I have 6 centurions and 6 aggressors.

 

I've already explained below the list, exactly what the CPs are used for.

 

Shooting armies, unless they ignore hit modifiers and ignore cover, are going to have a hard time removing all my scouts. And I can easily stuff them on buildings against assault armies and practically DS everything, ensuring I get the first charges no matter what.

 

No matter if I go first or second, I can move my entire army 9" forward or backward after deployment and determining who goes first, bar seizing. I will always have the chance to counter deploy you.

 

Did you even look at my list?


Edited by antique_nova, 30 October 2019 - 05:01 AM.

Competitive list builder who lives, breathes and plays in Grand Tournaments.

 

My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#4
Brom MKIV

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By ROF I meant rate of fire.

This list is titled your strongest list so that's the context I evaluated it from. A competitive level list. Sorry if it came off offensive or that's not the case. What format do you play?

I see the characters are fairly mobile. Problem is it's basically all about the characters and 2 units but the characters are trying to fill too many roles and roles they are sub optimal at because the list is lacking some tools. It's built for the best case scenario for the characters and 2 units. But in my experience that doesn't happen as often as not.

That and the scouts are polarizing the list for me. This is what I see..

45 heavy weapon single shot scouts. Sure they'll scare characters. But otherwise you have 45 bolter shots. Thats it.
They aren't mobile if they want to shoot effectively at non characters so moving shooting scoring have friction. They aren't durable either considering they are the bulk of your list.

Dice mods are king in 8th but this list has nothing to use them on except when it gets to pull off it's combo. I'll add that aggressors are cool but not in the same league as cents for RG.  

Using smash captains to clear screens is horribly inefficient but this list lacks other options like ranged presence. It takes 2 characters to kill a min sized screen for example and no pinning from single models unless maybe they all gang one unit. Not to mention they're either starting on the board meaning not that mobile if the opponent has forward deployed screens and then susceptible to being killed. Or they deep strike so clearing starts turn 2.

VVs with just cs/ss in place of even one captain would do twice the work for similar cost for example.  

Ranged armies with counter punch will counter this hard. Like other marines admech etc. An opposing marine list with TFCs and some counter punch would take this apart. Consider BAs on the other end of it. This can't close with them. It needs an alternative. 
Mechanized lists don't care about the scouts and will be too much to handle for the characters alone. Again they're gonna need to clear screens, tackle flyers, crack mech etc etc.
Hordes don't care about the scouts or the characters. GSC, PBs, tzaangors, etc.

Tldr; I think it needs less smash characters, less sniper rifles, less scouts. And then some real ranged option and more tools in the box.


Edited by Brom MKIV, 31 October 2019 - 03:20 PM.

..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#5
antique_nova

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My only issue was that there were no explanations. If you were unsure or confused about how someone came to something, you can just ask, but not every strength is always clear.

 

I've played at WW events and the terrain there is meh. Some ITC as well. But since I'm not in the US, I'm unable to play against many of the players there or the tournies there. So, I have a few good players who get to play against some of the great players there and I rely on them to critique my list as well. The consensus they reached with my list is that it's very strong and most players won't understand how strong and adaptable it is, but they don't like how it has so many characters. They aren't a fan of the character heavy plan/style, but that's more due to a personal preference than anything else.

 

The scouts aren't optimised at shooting at anything else, but characters. Well some elite units, as they'll get off on average 5 mortal wounds on any non character unit with no buffs whatsoever. That's actually decent and I'm okay with that.

 

The characters clearing screens are actually much more efficient than you think, but I want to clarify what I mean by screens first. The screens I'm talking about after 10 man 1W units or 5 men 2W units. Anything beyond that becomes something else, like a battle unit for me, where they're a significant amount of points say like 10 incursors or infiltrators are just simple cheap screens anymore. They're a proper unit due to the pts invested into them. The characters can fill many different roles, but I only give them two per game. Normally screen clearing and either vehicle/MC hunting.

 

When people talk about smash captains, they normally talk about one, that's why I have them paired up. I also think you're forgetting that I can infiltrate, which I mentioned in my previous post, where they can make a free move to within 9" of any enemy unit, before the first turn official begins. This ensures that my characters will get first turn charges unless your at the deepest recess of your DZ and I can do this with all 8 characters should I so wish. I also factored in that I might lose a few characters, that's why I have an abundance.

 

I don't take VVs as they are easier to target due to a lack of the character rule. Plus, once you start loading thunder hammers on them to match their hammer attacks, it's only 16 pts cheaper. For 16 pts, you're trading in the character rule and the reroll 1s to hit and WS2. Having a character rule makes it much harder for shooting units without forward units to counter them. If they have forward units, then that's perfectly fine as it doesn't bother me much and I've never had problems with it. Since I have so many characters with an assortment of tools I can choose which character to send up. If you have sent up invictors, I will send in smash captains. If you got infantry screens, I will send up say Shrike, Teeth of Terra guy etc. If you have a mix, then I will send up a mix.

 

Put it this way, let's say I switch out two smash captains for a different screen clearing unit that can target OOLOS units. 9 eliminators with a tech marine gunner won't be able to shift a 5 man incursor/infiltrator unit without buffs and that costs about 30 pts more. If you take any of my two characters, bar the libby, they have a pretty decent change of taking out a 10 man incursor squad in the first turn with the infiltrator strat. Sure, it costs 2CP, but well worth it, because I still have plenty of CP less and you're down an important screening unit. Plus, most competitive lists I've seen so far, aren't spamming forward units like crazy. Especially, to the extent I have. So, what I can do if you deployed first with your forward units is deploy in the spaces that you've left open. Point is, I can deploy them close enough that you can't target me, because even though the scouts are OOLOS, they're the closer unit. So, you can't shoot my characters. Even if I can't get the scouts into an OOLOS, you're shooting scouts in cover and probably more than 12" and not my characters. Whenever I've done this, players are well surprised. 

 

But what about forward units that you can see. Let's go with Alaitoc rangers, a RG TFC with the ability to shoot twice for 2CP, will kill 5 rangers. A teeth of terra character with just 1 CP for a few points less will do the trick as well. So, CP and pts per pts wise, the TFC loses. Even if you switched to eliminators with the OOLOS rounds, they won't kill more than half the rangers and you can't buff them with CPs and having a CM and lieutenant nearby doesn't help much. Sure, those shooting units most likely won't be targeted, but they aren't as good at removing that forward unit when it counts, like the Teeth of Terra guy. Sure, I may loose him in the following round, but he's done his job and I have 7 more characters where he came from. Also, I swear there is an ability somewhere that lets you consolidate where ever you want, but I can't remember exactly where I saw that.

 

Ranged armies won't and haven't countered this. Well, once when I piloted my list horribly. They often suffer negative modifiers to hit, lose their screens too fast and get charged in the face.

Mechanised lists often lose their transports too quickly against my characters and elite units, then have trouble shifting them and my scouts off objectives.

Hordes struggle to beat my centurions and aggressors who are deployed on the ground, my character snipes and bombs and the fact that their characters are never safe.

 

The list has more than enough tools in the box to deal with any army composition and does not need more guns IMO. Especially, once you start adding more guns, you inherently change the fundamentals of the list composition to the point, where we're creating a very different one.

 

Most games I've played, I've lost say half to two thirds of my scouts, half my characters and some aggressors or centurions on average, but I quite often have great control over the table. 


Competitive list builder who lives, breathes and plays in Grand Tournaments.

 

My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#6
Brom MKIV

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Well I guess if your having success with it then why change it! 


..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#7
Lemondish

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Not sure why you posted here if you weren't interested in hearing feedback on it, but it looks like something my Fists would absolutely love to trounce all over. 

 

Also looks like something a Raven Guard opponent would have a field day with. Not sure you can handle Space Elf Flying Circus or the Iron Air Force, but those weaknesses seem pretty minor compared to the strengths. 

 

I hate scouts as a unit, a model, and an idea, so I'll never like this list - but competitively it looks capable, with a neat secondary hook that's a bit different from the standard Raven Guard Centurion/Aggressor gimmicks. 



#8
antique_nova

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There's a difference between giving feedback and giving feedback. One is clear, understandable and well explained. The other is just an opinion with little to no credible explanation and examples to back it up. Someone gave me more detailed feedback when I asked for it and I countered it with a pretty in depth explanation of my own. I don't see how that isn't interested to hearing feedback. And while, I didn't explicitly say, I want feedback, I was interested to see how others might react to it here by giving feedback that made sense and well explained.

 

If you can provide the Raven Guard list that would have a field day with my list and tactics, then by all means. I'd be happy to hear it and discuss it, but I highly doubt that there is one. However, I have to admit that the flying circus still gives me the most trouble, due to my inability to keep track of everything happening in the game fast enough at times. The Iron Air Force posses little problems, because the pressure isn't as big, nor do they have as many fast moving units for me to keep track of and I've had little trouble handling Imperial Fists, even the triple TFC lists. Now, I don't know if the IF list you're talking about is the one you posted online, but if it is. I don't see how you can trounce all over mine, let alone get a win. Since I can assault snipe multiple units from your army in my first turn and there's nothing you can do to stop that.

 

Tbh, my biggest weaknesses has always been keeping track of all the units on the table, than actual list building etc, because I'm just not able to get as many games in as many of the very best players like Jim Vasal, who are able to keep tracking of basically everything 99% of the time. Put it this way, I've deepstriked entire battlesuit units within 12" of a heavily armed space marine squad once and watched half of it die, even though my opponent subtly warned me in a GT. sweat.gif


Well I guess if your having success with it then why change it! 

 

Well, I'm always looking to improve it, but only if it makes sense. I don't think any of my lists have lasted more than 4-5 months, before I found out that it's suddenly been overtaken by something different.


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My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#9
Brom MKIV

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On my phone or I'd post in depth but how do you deal with armies like tau drone tides and have you played them?
Same for vasals list.

I see the characters as unable to handle a threat dense list just on their own. And if they multi assault then things will go wrong. Failed charges happen regardless, interrupting the fight sequence after the first character etc.

Again I really just don't see what this does against hordes either. Be interested in a detailed explanation of how you handle those.

..All Space Marine legions and chapters, loyal and traitor, cast a shadow that resembles the Dark Angels.
-FerociousBeast

The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

"My IG infantry would kill for bolters... but they have lasguns, so they can't" -stripeydave

 


#10
antique_nova

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Tau drone lists are pretty tricky for anyone tbh. I've never liked playing against them no matter which army I use.

 

You are joking against Vasal's list right? I could target any character for days and I can deploy anywhere and release all my aggressor and centurion shots.

 

You said earlier that you can't see anything against vehicles and now against hordes? I'm seriously questioning whether we're even looking at the same list thorough this entire discussion.

 

I get to choose when and where my anti-infantry engages hordes by infiltrating or deepstriking my aggressors/centurions. I can block horde armies off with layers of scouts etc.

 

I don't see how you're seeing that the characters handle a threat dense list on their own, when I've repeatidly said that they aren't. The characters are the first wave followed by the deepstriking elites.

 

Regardless, I've made some changes to the list now editing into the OP (one of two changes since CA, but not due to points, but due to the faith and fury stuff.)

 

This helps to sure up some issues that I was seeing with the list I was using.


Edited by antique_nova, 03 December 2019 - 06:28 PM.

Competitive list builder who lives, breathes and plays in Grand Tournaments.

 

My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#11
Palmu

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A very interesting list type, thank you for posting it. I'll likely be copying the idea and see how it works with the finnish meta.

#12
antique_nova

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A very interesting list type, thank you for posting it. I'll likely be copying the idea and see how it works with the finnish meta.

No worries and thanks. This is an updated version of the original and there are some concerns with it, the most controversial being the meltas on the centurions, but everything else I'm more or less fine with. I must warn you however, while I think this is quite reliable in what it does, it is a high risk army. I mean, you can make a few mistakes and still follow the plan, but it does have it's limit and that's mostly with where you send your characters being the biggest thing. If you muck that up and your opponent takes full advantage of that and is able to, things will get more difficult due to your lack of range against castles and gun lines.


Edited by antique_nova, 05 December 2019 - 06:52 PM.

Competitive list builder who lives, breathes and plays in Grand Tournaments.

 

My current strongest lists:

 

http://www.bolterand...arine-lists-2k/


#13
Brom MKIV

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First I haven't been following this but that list changed. A lot.
First iteration was all sniper scouts 1 cents 1 aggressors which are poor man's stand ins. And Smash captains aka hammer variety and libbys to clear screens is why I made the comments I did. 45 sniper scouts is just theory sorry but that's obvious.
My comments were on that list and they stand. This list is another animal basically entirely rebuilt.
It has primaris more msu cents (missing LRM) and some new buffs. Night and day. Of course Triple cents are more broken even with LRM which is what I run but only 2 units for friendlies. Again the list posted above is not the same as the first. That one had legit issues for a "strongest list".

Anyway signing out of this. Enjoy.

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#14
Marauder112

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Hello,

 

I've tried your first list today (with a few little changes here and there). I must say i'm impressed. I tabled him at the end of my turn 2 (I got the first turn). The score was also 19-4 in terms of victory points.

 

I played against the Dark Angels.

Roughly his list looked like this:

- 2 "smash" masters.

- 1 Talonmaster with sword relic

- 1 librarian

- 1 Techmarine

- 4 units of scouts

- 2 units of intercessors

- 2 units of bikers

- 2 units of black knights (6 and 3 strong)

- 2 dreadnoughts

- 1 Redemptor dreadnought

- 2 units of 3 aggressors

 

I made my turn 1 charges because of the +2 to charge and cleared a few of his key units (like the 6 black knights/both aggressors and redemptor dread).

 

Next up I will be facing the grey knights with this list. It's nice to try this list against a heavy deep strike army. The Dark Angel player will also use his best list against this one the next time. That way I can test it a few times.

Some of he changes I did make in this list: I switched one unit of 3 centurions for 6 aggressors. Switched one jump pack captain for a captain on bike (He has the relic that he can advance and charge and the imperium's sword warlord trait.



#15
antique_nova

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Hello,

 

I've tried your first list today (with a few little changes here and there). I must say i'm impressed. I tabled him at the end of my turn 2 (I got the first turn). The score was also 19-4 in terms of victory points.

 

I played against the Dark Angels.

Roughly his list looked like this:

- 2 "smash" masters.

- 1 Talonmaster with sword relic

- 1 librarian

- 1 Techmarine

- 4 units of scouts

- 2 units of intercessors

- 2 units of bikers

- 2 units of black knights (6 and 3 strong)

- 2 dreadnoughts

- 1 Redemptor dreadnought

- 2 units of 3 aggressors

 

I made my turn 1 charges because of the +2 to charge and cleared a few of his key units (like the 6 black knights/both aggressors and redemptor dread).

 

Next up I will be facing the grey knights with this list. It's nice to try this list against a heavy deep strike army. The Dark Angel player will also use his best list against this one the next time. That way I can test it a few times.

Some of he changes I did make in this list: I switched one unit of 3 centurions for 6 aggressors. Switched one jump pack captain for a captain on bike (He has the relic that he can advance and charge and the imperium's sword warlord trait.

 

That's great to hear!

 

I actually love hearing people using my lists and tactics!

 

However, please be aware that I believe I have more warlord traits than is legal in the first list. You'll need to be aware of that. I realised that in my second list, so that's safe.

 

Out of the two lists, I'd say the second one is the strongest and by a far bit, it's also a much safer build, because it's much harder to deploy against, because there's a good chance that a smart opponent will deploy far enough away that you can't get first turn charges, even with the infiltrating characters. The changes you've made I'd say are more of a personal choice. Since, I expect to face more flyers, that's why the load up on jump packs and melta guns instead of what you went for.

 

Could you share some pictures of your army and of the battles? I'd love to see them! ^^


Edited by antique_nova, 27 December 2019 - 07:00 AM.

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#16
Marauder112

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I had a warlord with 2 traits and one other character with a trait. I switched it to my personal preferences and I think this should be legal.

Unfortunately I didn't made pictures. I did had to proxy the centurion but already ordered 1 box of them to assemble.

Why do you think the second list is far better?

#17
faithonwings

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Because of the long range artillary to clear units hiding in LOS I would assume.

#18
Marauder112

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Today I played against the grey knights with my slightly adjusted first list. Had a good victory. Again had the luck to begin the first turn.

I faced:
3 character dread knights
1 techpriest
3 razorbacks with assault cannons
4 units strike squads (the troops)
2 apothecaries
3 dreadnoughts (1 was a venerable one)

Was a fun battle. He had half his army in deep strike. I was able to destroy every model that was deployed on the table before the deep strikers came in. I did lost the lieutenant from overwatch (lucky lascannon roll :P) and he killed the chaplain.

Because of the many troops I could create a anti deep strike screen for a great part of the table. After his second force came in he did put up a fight. In the end his teleporters managed to kill 2 smash captains, 1,5 unit of centurions and 5 of the 6 aggressors before I wiped him out. Those dread knight characters are deadly.

I do wonder how this list plays when I wont be able to get the first turn charges off or start second. I still like the list a lot.

#19
antique_nova

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I had a warlord with 2 traits and one other character with a trait. I switched it to my personal preferences and I think this should be legal.

Unfortunately I didn't made pictures. I did had to proxy the centurion but already ordered 1 box of them to assemble.

Why do you think the second list is far better?

 

Exactly as Faithonwings mentioned. Because here's the thing. It's far harder to deny the 2nd list compared to the first. If you go first, you have to plop down your smash characters first and then the enemy could deploy so far back that you can't pull off a turn 1 charge and the table could have bad terrain. Of course the first list tries to mitigate this by spamming scouts up front and having a lot of smash characters to infiltrate. But if you go second, the opponent could deploy normally and place a few scout units up front to completely block any chance of you infiltrating. In a tournament setting, while you do save like 6 CP, if that happens to you, you have some serious work to do.

 

The 2nd list can basically melt all the troops from the first list in 2 turns. The 2nd list can also afford to keep the centurions in reserve for longer since they have the longer ranged firepower.

 

All in all, it's much harder to deny the 2nd list than it is the first by deployment and mid game. That by default makes it stronger and I found that out via testing and discussions with my tester as well, who's also extremely competitive.

 

I know you like aggressors, but I'd highly suggest you try all centurions. :P

 

And also try to get some models or proxy the 2nd list, before 8th edition is finished, because I think it'll be another 1.5 years before 8th edition is done.


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#20
Marauder112

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I thought infiltration was a normal movement and you didn't had to stay out of 9 inch from enemy models. That is a little harder Indeed. I will try the second list for sure. I can see eliminaters and the thunderfire canon do work. Only the whirlwinds I'm not sure of jet.

I did played a third game against the dark Angels. He had azreal with a lot of hellblasters etc. I didn't got the first turn but were able to pull of a win. I did the infiltrating rule wrong though.

Do you prefer the 3th unit of centurions with metas or flamers?

#21
antique_nova

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I didn't mention it before, because I thought you knew? Well now you know. :)

 

I'm curious as to how you did against the Dark Angels in more detail and what his composition was in more detail.

 

I definitely prefer the 3rd unit of centurions with meltas, since both lists already have a healthy amount of anti-infantry firepower and attack power. The first list is obvious. The second list has triple TFC, Eliminators and centurion hurricane bolter squads. The only thing I'd say is that you should stay in the heavy doctrine most of the time. Only go into 2nd doctrine when absolutely necessary for the benefit of the melta guns and hurricane bolters.

 

Put it this way, 6 flamers are nice, but that's 18 shots on average with 9 wounds on T4 or 12 wounds on t3. Against marines, you'll cause 3 wounds, against orks or nidz you'll kill 10. That's nowhere near enough to to stop an assaulting unit.

 

Also, if all your hurricane bolters aren't enough when they deepstrike to alter the outcome, then I'm afraid you got bigger problems. Especially if your TFC, Eliminators and whirlwinds can finish off the job. The meltas are important, because the list lacks anti-tank and anti-mc firepower against faster targets. Sure you can get that 3" extra for the first round of firepower. But flamers and hurricane bolters on centurions, for both lists is an absolute overkill. So, why not shore up on something else that you're far less well equipped to handle, while taking advantage of the master of artisan trait?


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#22
Marauder112

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Yeah I screwed missing that rule up myself. To much new stuff that needs to sink in.

The dark Angels list from my head:
Azreal
Techmarine
2 talonmasters (1 with relic sword)
Banner guy for shooting/melee when models die on a 4+.
3 dreadnoughts with lascannons and missile launchers
2x 8 hellblasters
4 aggressors
3x 5 scouts
3 ravenwing bikers

He got the first turn but because of the terrain I could protect most of my troops.
I did infiltration on a few characters to sneak in closer but behind scouts and protection. My first turn I charged with 2 captains each into the 1 talonmaster and the lieutenant, biker captain and scouts into 1 unit hellblasters and agressors. Killed most of them in my whole turn (shooting and melee). Only one of my captains died to the 2cp intervening talonmaster.

His second turn saw my chaplain and lieutenant dying because his counter charges and him blasting some aggressors and a few other models.
In my next turn I killed a dreadnought, banner guy, second hellblaster unit. His 3th turn he killed 1 or 2 more aggressors and a few centurions. He also killed a captain with azreal (he made him fight 2 times). In my 3th turn I killed azreal, the last talonmaster and 1 dreadnought. The 4th turn existed only for me to kill his 3th dreadnought. After that I tabled him.

A lot of my characters died but that made sure my centurions and agressors weren't completely killed. It was a fun battle. I used infiltration wrong one 1 captain (moved him within 9inch). The other characters I used it the right way.

Now it's time to try the other one.

#23
antique_nova

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Hmm. Yeah. The second list would have no problems with that. First turn, the snipers try to get an angle in on Azreal with their mortis rounds. If not, they'll use executioner rounds, but shoot Azreal first with all the eliminators and on average, he will die. Then all the TFC and whirlwinds will target the hellblasters and basically wipe them all off the board.

 

After that, you just focus on whatever is closest, as he'll be extremely hesitant to charge you, since you can easily counter charge and smash him with the return charges of the centurions, while you continue cleaning house. 2nd turn you can kill the banner guy if he's going to affect the battle. If not, then no point.


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#24
Marauder112

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I will try to plan the battle soon. I do like the mobility of the first list and the fighting capability (I'm an old khorne player in warhammer fantasy :P). The second list seems a bit more boring to play and play against. But now i do see why its a stronger list than the first one.

#25
antique_nova

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Ah that would explain it then! I started off with Black Templars first. Well, keep on playing and let me know how it goes and pictures are always welcome!


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