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My two strongest Space Marine Lists @2k


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#51
Marauder112

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I don't play at a club because the clubtimes don't suit my life. I play with friends. Because the list is different they never seen something like it before.

Why would you ignored the dreadnoughts? Because they were the ones who destroyed 2 out of my 3 whirlwinds. In the first 3 turns 2 of his dreadknights had a 3++ the whole time (because of magic and a stratagem). So shooting them with my artillery would be lackluster most of the time. I let him spent cp's like this and when he ran out, I took them down. There wasn't much left at that point.

#52
antique_nova

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Okay and do they like it? Resent it? And why?

 

As I said before, It kinda depends on the terrain. If the dreadnoughts bear no LOS to them and there are more targets that are easier. I'd generally go for them, since the deepstriking centurions can easily handle them later. But seeing the extra info, I would say you made the right choice then, but that's actually very smart of you. Forcing him to spend CPs to strengthen one area and then pound him where he's weakest, because they couldn't do much.


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#53
Marauder112

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Yeah they thought the list was hard. 3 units of centurions are rock hard I experienced. The grey knights were quite good as well. It was a new list. Normally he fields 2 apothecaries but they don't do much most of the time. He changed them and a razorback for 2 units of 10 interceptors. They are very fast and can teleport once a game so basically they have a turn 1 deep strike ability. Combined with a magical deep strike he could deep strike up to 3 units on the first turn!

I would like to play the iron hands again with his dreadnought army 2.0. He switched it after our last fight. Now he has this:
-1 feirros the master tech.
-2 lieutenants
-1 chaplain dreadnought
-6 scout units
-3 redemptor dreadnoughts
-3 mortis dreadnoughts
-3 of the new dreadnought warsuits
-1 thunderfire cannon.

Sounds very scary!

#54
antique_nova

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I probably would have focused more against the dreadnoughts and less on the razorbacks if I were you against those grey knights, but again it depends on LOS.

 

Hmmm. Against that list, I'd focus on the scouts with your TFCs and invictor warsuits with your whirlwinds and smash characters, then use your snipers to take out the lieutenants, because Feirros is far too tough to take down with snipers. Ignore the enemy TFC, because you don't really have enough to kill it, your scouts will most likely die and he can only kill 1 eliminator on average with a TFC firing twice. Deploy all your smash characters normally and counter charge his invictors with them. Do this all in your first turn.

 

By end of your first turn you should have killed 4 scout units (4 TFC shots), 1.5 lieutenants (eliminators), almost 3 invictors (whirlwinds and all smash characters)

 

After that, in your 2nd turn, kill his remaining scouts with your TFC, destroy his TFC with your whirlwinds (4 shots) and lend an eliminator to finish off the TFC if need be and finish off the final lieutenant. After that, pick off his dreadnoughts are will and bring in the centurions with the smash characters advancing up. This will be the general battle plan I'd have. Regardless of whether I go first or second. I wouldn't really target Feirros, because he's too tough and he's not that vital to the Iron Hands army like that. Because if we groups all his dreadnoughts around Feirros, then he can't really draw good LOS on you and that's the last thing he wants.

 

Also, Feirros cannot take any relics, nor can he take any warlord trait that isn't designated to him. In other words, he can't take anything from the Psychic Awakening: Faith & Fury 40k update, because he's a named character.

 

I see he has no leviathans as well which is good. Not sure what his mortis dreadnoughts will have, but i guess everyone will have missile launchers and twin lascannons.

 

He will spread out a lot with his dreadnoughts if he's smart. Because once the centurions land, they can't move very far. If he groups them altogether, he'll get shot and mass charged very easily. It will be game over for him, since he has barely any anti-DS screens who can last past turn 2.

 

As for which dreadnoughts to focus on first. All 3 mortis dreadnoughts with missile launchers and lascannons or even twin lascannons will pretty much 2-3 centurions a turn. The redemptors with all their cannons will produce about 13-14 wounds on average per turn with chapter master rerolls and lieutenants. They're also tougher than normal dreads and put out a bit more damage. So, I'd say focus on them first, but again it really depends on how they're placed.

 

In all honesty, I do not expect you to lose the game, because his army relies too much on a lack of terrain and while he can move and shoot heavy weapons without any penalties. It's not much. His first wave is easy to deal with and he will find it hard to counter OOLOS armies like yours.

 

Expect to take heavy casulties on your centurions, most likely lose two full units at max and a few smash characters, all your scouts and maybe a single arty unit if he can see it. But your win will be convincing, as you'll end up with about 1140 pts left and he'll be wiped out by the end of turn 4, as his army is too tough to be wiped out in 3 turns, since you'll most likely deepstrike in turn 3 when going 2nd as it'll take you two turns to wipe out his screens. If you went first, maybe you could practically wipe him off the board in 3 turns, but I doubt your opponent is that bad and will roll that badly. 

 

Let me know how it goes.

 

EDIT: I've just changed the 2nd list and I can tell you right now, it's even more manevourable, versatile, powerful and khorne like! You'll love the new changes!

 

It'll allow you to handle the invictors much more easily, his TFC at the back and heavily negate the effect of him spreading out his dreadnoughts, so it's much harder to negate the close combat effectiveness of your army now. As you now have 8 close combat heavy hitters. You can also clear out screens much better with Sammael compared to the snipers. Sammael in effect is your combat sniper.


Edited by antique_nova, 17 January 2020 - 04:32 AM.

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#55
Marauder112

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Today I saw the iron hand player battle against the grey knights player (he used the list of posted earlier). Man, the grey knights didn't stand a chance. The iron hand player lost 2 warsuits, the chaplain dreadnought, a redemptor dreadnought and 3 units of scouts. The grey knights were tabled in round 4. It wasn't an exciting game because the iron hands never were in real danger. He lost his chaplain dreadnought only because he wanted to test his combat powers.

He didn't use feirros but a normal techmarine. Being a master tech and with the warlord trait that gives vehicles within 6" a +1 to their bs. He also had the relic that gave him +1 toughness and a 4++.

He deployed his warsuits in the midfield with 3 units of scouts. His backline existed of 3 fire platforms, all with space in between each other.

Every turn he popped the stratagem that halves the damage taken on 1 dreadnought. This was a big difference on the outcome as well. He used the iron stone on another important dreadnought so that damage taken would be minus 1. So this way he could protect 2 of his best dreads a turn. He made 1 dreadnought a character with a stratagem so he too was protected. And his chaplain dread couldn't be targeted for being a character as well. This worked very very good. 4 dreadnoughts a turn were protected. His master tech could heal 3 damage a turn. I am impressed by his army. I love dreadnoughts and now you can make a viable army of it.

I just checked your changed list. I understand were your coming from by changing the eliminators. You changed 9 eliminators for samuel and an extra smash captain (because that detached already had 1 smash captain). The new version has 7 characters that almost take up half of the armies points. I can understand it being more efficient then the eliminators but I liked the idea of having elite snipers to take out characters and elite units, also working as an anti deep strike zone and eventually being a road block when things go really bad :P.

Have you played with the new list? Of so, how did it go?

Edited by Marauder112, 17 January 2020 - 10:34 PM.


#56
antique_nova

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Today I saw the iron hand player battle against the grey knights player (he used the list of posted earlier). Man, the grey knights didn't stand a chance. The iron hand player lost 2 warsuits, the chaplain dreadnought, a redemptor dreadnought and 3 units of scouts. The grey knights were tabled in round 4. It wasn't an exciting game because the iron hands never were in real danger. He lost his chaplain dreadnought only because he wanted to test his combat powers.

He didn't use feirros but a normal techmarine. Being a master tech and with the warlord trait that gives vehicles within 6" a +1 to their bs. He also had the relic that gave him +1 toughness and a 4++.

He deployed his warsuits in the midfield with 3 units of scouts. His backline existed of 3 fire platforms, all with space in between each other.

Every turn he popped the stratagem that halves the damage taken on 1 dreadnought. This was a big difference on the outcome as well. He used the iron stone on another important dreadnought so that damage taken would be minus 1. So this way he could protect 2 of his best dreads a turn. He made 1 dreadnought a character with a stratagem so he too was protected. And his chaplain dread couldn't be targeted for being a character as well. This worked very very good. 4 dreadnoughts a turn were protected. His master tech could heal 3 damage a turn. I am impressed by his army. I love dreadnoughts and now you can make a viable army of it.

I just checked your changed list. I understand were your coming from by changing the eliminators. You changed 9 eliminators for samuel and an extra smash captain (because that detached already had 1 smash captain). The new version has 7 characters that almost take up half of the armies points. I can understand it being more efficient then the eliminators but I liked the idea of having elite snipers to take out characters and elite units, also working as an anti deep strike zone and eventually being a road block when things go really bad tongue.png.

Have you played with the new list? Of so, how did it go?

 

Yeah, that grey knight's player never stood a chance.

 

I've already done some testing and it works out much better. I'll often lose Sammael because of his suicide runs, but the amount of craziness he brings, really messes with the enemy. Especially, when it's the 3rd game of the day or the 2nd day of a tournament. People make mistakes quite often and that's where Sammael really shines. The new detachment fulfills the anti-DS area much better than the eliminators ever did and are much move manevouable, meaning I can keep changing where the anti-DS area is.

 

Also, I forgot about the stratagem, but it makes sense. But here is the thing, it gives you a clearer set of units to kill, who won't be protected at all. I know you like the eliminators, but they won't do much against the serious players, especially with all the info I'm getting about the next few updates. The eliminators I found actually make poor road blocks.

 

Now, revising the strategy with the new detachment. I'd do this against the Iron Hands player.

 

You won't be able to force him to run out of CP anytime soon, because he has two battalions and doesn't use much CP

 

1st turn: Use everything to take out his scouts and invictor warsuits first.

2nd turn: Finish off the scouts and focus on the mortis dreadnoughts.

3rd turn: Finish off the mortis dreadnoughts and if possible tie up redemptors in close combat with Sammael and the centurions.

4th turn: If you need to wait until now to get within deepstriking charge range of the redemptors. Do, it.

 

As long as you follow this basic battleplan and ensure that he cant spot your artillery nor get in range of your arty (artillery) and if he ever shifts the reduce damage to the mortis dreadnoughts. Then simply shift your focus to those who aren't buffed by it.

 

Also, here's one dirty little trick, but perfectly legal, that I learnt a while ago. You can lock your units in close combat with the enemy, so that they can't escape and prevent your guys from being shot to bits. Two characters are all that's needed. Let's say Sammael and one of the "masters". Especially against a mortis dreadnought. Now, I'm pretty confident that the Iron Hands player will use "Duty Eternal" to save his dreadnought in close combat. If he does, proceed as normal and you'll find that you'll hurt the dreadnought quite a bit, but not enough to kill it. If he doesn't use that stratagem. Then make sure Sammael doesn't cause more than 3 wounds against him and if he is most likely going to destroy the dreadnought, make sure that he can at least consolidate right into another redemptor dreadnought (which is highly unlikely.

 

But let's just say that the dreadnought in question doesn't die. The mortis dreadnought can't move without having to force units out of the way, which it can't. Which means it can't escape combat. Sure the enemy can send in close combat units. But who? Because whoever they send it will die next turn to the deepstriking centurions and your next set of jumping characters will do the exact same thing as before and I highly doubt that they'll be able to kill Sammael in a single round of combat.

 

This may in turn prevent you from killing all his redemptors by turn 5, meaning you won't wipe him off the board. But the result will be pretty much that! This is the problem of dreadnought spam and why fast and reasonably tough armies will get the drop on them. They're also a gunline army with a weak front. There is little synergy between the front and back compared to the list you're using.

 

Actually, you could do something like this.

 

Deepstrike the Raven Guard successor characters on one side on turn 2, Then on turn 3, have them jump onto a single dreadnought to pin it down, while a centurion unit gets a charge buffer to engage another. Meanwhile, Sammael and his master buddies can focus on another dreadnought with a clear LOS to the centurions. While, the TFC and whirlwinds focus fire on another. In other words, he can't protect them all at once. Because once you've killed his invictors and scouts, it's practically game over as you'll control the whole table and will have most likely lost 0 units to his 9. About 0 points to about 750 pts by the end of turn 2. You can afford to bide your time and wear him down, while you get your characters into position and then bam, teleport all the centurions or teleport them in piecemeal to engage one or two dreadnoughts at a time, while preventing his other dreadnoughts from getting a proper LOS in the following turn.

 

I mean that's pretty much what I did against an identical list. I manage to serious my losses to far lower than I initially expected, because of that.

 

But yeah, I think I've rambled on long enough! I think you get the point. XD


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#57
Marauder112

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Can you tell me what updates you heard about that are going to change units or to be more precise, the eliminators.

I know that tactic to tie them up in combat, it's a very good one and I try to use it as much a possible. But don't you need to have at least 3 characters of models to make sure he cant get out? Since 2 models would mean that he still can move in between them and out of combat right (since with 2 models you would stand against only 2 sides)?

Only one correction in the steps you wrote down: deep strikers have to be deployed in the end of turn 3 otherwise they are dead so I cant wait till turn 4 to deploy them

When I played to other dreadnought list I had sort if the same order in destroying things. I had the luck to kill his master tech on my first turn so he didn't got the +1 bs bubble and his 3 point repair.

This is my main concern when playing against his army (perhaps Monday will be the big day):
You deploy units 1 after each other so that means that the player who deploys one of his units first will have 2 units in the mid field (scout deployment). If deploying second this means he get to pick an mid field area 9 inch away from the enemies scouts. So he is able to field his warsuits at least somewhere in the midfield this way at every battle. This means that the only downside I can think of in your plan is this: What if he goes first? His warsuits are deployed 9 inch from my deployment zone and they can walk 10 inch. Then they can charge my artillery on turn 1. I doubt I can stop this from happening even if I would field scouts as a road block (because the scouts would be limited to deploy in my own deployment cause he stands 9 inch away from my deployementzone at that side).

#58
antique_nova

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I wrote a detailed reply and then the internet :cuss me over and I cba to write that all out again.

The pinning move and deepstrike. I forgot, since I rarely do them and against different stuff.

Also, check your chapter approved 2019. Unless you're playing special house rules, you're doing it wrong. The correct deployment style has been in use since 2018. Where one player fully deploys before the other.

The updated deployment rules heavily favour your army.

Edited by antique_nova, 18 January 2020 - 07:06 PM.

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#59
Marauder112

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Hmmm, I swear there was an update that gave to first player who finished deploying just a +1 to hit and units were deployed 1 at a time. For the last half hour I am checking all the FAQ's but couldn't see this rule anymore. I saw 2 different types of rules when deploying.
-1 at a time and the first finishing player just gets to choose who goes first (you can still seize the initiative).
-And one rule were one army deploys his whole army at once and then can choose who goes first.

But it depends on which mission you play. Can you help me directing me to the proper rules used by most players and events?
Also, in what way are these rules better for this army? Why starts with deploying everything and who gets the first turn?

I remember playing like this a few times 1 or 2 years back but since then we started to play with the +1 on the roll who goes first.

#60
antique_nova

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That +1 to hit rule has never existed in matched play in 8th edition. I don't know where you saw it.

 

There used to be a rule that whoever finished deploying first, after doing the alternative deployment of you and me, then you and me, got a +1 to see who goes first in the roll off, but that was replaced quite a while ago.

 

You can't just rely on FAQs this edition. You must have Chapter Approved too and they aren't free. Buy the 2019 Chapter Approved and use that, because that's the standard format for matched play now unless a tournament specifically says otherwise. However, if you decide to enter an ITC or ETC tournament, then it's slightly different. 

 

It's better for you, because if you go first, you get to deploy all your scouts up front and deny them the chance of deploying any unit near your artillery with their own scout/infiltration units, before the first turn. If you go second, you get to choose which deployment map to use and I would pick either "Search and Destroy" or Vanguard Strike" (probably the first one), to ensure that I put as much distance between my artillery and their fast assault units.


Edited by antique_nova, 19 January 2020 - 01:09 AM.

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#61
Marauder112

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Yeah that was the rule I was talking about. I had a warhammer break of 6 to 12 months so I guess I missed that change when I started to play again last month. Thank you for reminding me haha. I do hate the fact that the chapter approved books are so expensive.

 

This weekend I played 2 battles. I you aren't getting bored of me yet I will briefly report what happend. I played with the second older version of your best lists (with the eliminators :-). The rule of cool is also important).

 

1th battle was against the dreadnought army of the Iron Hands I mentioned before. He was using a master tech with the +1BS bubble instead of Feirros. His techmarine had the relic that gave him a 4++ and an extra toughness. I played this battle the "wrong" way in the deployment phase. He deployed an unit of scouts and a warsuit on the right middel side of the map. I deployed 2 units of my scouts in the left en middel section of the midfield. The rest of our units were deployed in our own deployment zones. I got the first turn. 

In short I whiped him of the board in the end. I believe on turn 4. Because I played 2 games I don't remember everything correctly but some highlights:

- The eliminators rolled very good and killed the master tech on turn 1, so again no +1 BS bubble for him. In the second turn they killed a primaris lieutenant with the iron stone so no -1 damage on a dreadnought. In the 3th turn they shot 2 wounds of another lieutenant.

- The Raven Guard smash captain charged a warsuit. He popped the stratagem that halves the incomming damage so his warsuits ended with 4 wounds left. His returning blows didn't do any damage on me. The next turn his warsuit walked out of combat and another warsuit (full health) shot and charged the captain but again failing to kill him. In this combat phase and the next one my captain killed his warsuit. He alone almost killed 2 warsuits! The funny part was that he died because the destroyed warsuit exploded in his face :P.

- The thunderfire cannons rolled hot in the first turn killing 4 out of the 6 scout units he had. I let one shoot twice. Another scout unit were killed by my scouts rushing forward shooting and charging them.

- This meant that the centurions could arrive on my turn 2 and they turned out to be made of gold again. With shooting and combat (because of the +2 to charge from the chaplain) they killed 1 warsuit, 1 dreadnought, 2 redemptor dreadnoughts.

- My other jumppack captain charged and killed his chaplain dreadnought in one round of combat. Whirldwind of rage is so good! Even my scouts do a little extra damage because of it.

After turn 2 I only had some mopping up to do. In turn 4 I killed everything. I had lost 919 points in total.

 

The 2th battle was against the dark angels. With Sammuel, 2 talonmasters, 9 black knights in 2 units, 2x 3 ravenwng bikes, 3 dreadnoughts, 1 stormtalon, 3x scouts, Darkshroud.

We played the right way this time. He could pick deployment and sides and my deployed my whole army and began the first turn.

A Summary of the battle:

- My eliminators killed his wizard on the first turn. Killed an unit of 3 bikes in the second turn.

- The 2 important scout units were destroyed by the thunderfire cannons. I did had to shoot with 4 volleys to kill just 10 scout models, so bad were my dice rolling.

- With the Raven Guard stratagem to move infantry before the battle my smash captain was able to charge and kill his warlord talonmaster! Afterwards he pilled in on an unit of 3 black knights to tie them in combat. He did use a strategem so they could shoot in the next turn when falling back but it cost him 2 CP.

- My whirlwinds killed 5 models of his 6 black knight unit in my first turn.

- 2 of my scouts were able to tie 2 of his ravenwing bikers in combat on the first turn. Deploying scouts forward when you are most likely to get the first turn (unless he stole initiative) is something I like to do when the chances of them being whiped in 1 round of combat is small.

- In his first turn he killed my Raven Guard captain who now stood in the middel of his army.

- He used the remaining black knight and a remaining ravenwing biker to make an anti-deepstrike screen. It worked a bit but he couldn't cover his whole army this way.

- In his first turn he also killed 3 eliminator models, 1 whirlwind, my 2 scout units and brought another whirlwind down to 6 wounds.

- In my turn 2 I deep struck 2 centurion units and they killed his stormtalon which exploded taking off 3 wounds of my chaplain. Because of the +2 to the charge of the chaplain they charged and killed ravenwing biker model/unit. I also killed his other remaining black knight models (3 left) with them and some artillery fire.

- In his 2th turn I don't know what happend but his 3 dreadnoughts all shot at my centurion units killing only 1 model! I rolled 4 sixes when taking armour saves! Sammuel moved forward trying to kill my last jumppack captain. He shot 18 S5 and 6 rounds, charged and fought but only brought the captain down to 2 wounds. In return I killed Sammuel.

- In round 3 or 4, for a finale, I set up a charge against his darkshroud with my jumppack captain (2 wounds left), chaplain (1 wound left) and last scout unit existing of 3 models. It didn't turn out to be necessary because I shot it down with my artillery. As a perfect ending it decided to blow up, killing both my chaplain,captain and the wounded scout unit in a great explosion. There was only a big crater left after the smoke cleared.

 

Next time I will let the oppenent start again to practise. I still have to play with some proxy models but were able to get me 3 whirlwinds and 2 thunderfire cannons. So it's starting to come together.



#62
antique_nova

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This is an expensive hobby and they will find and find silly ways to make money at the cost of making the game more playable. For example, all rules set should be online and updated when needed for a monthly subscription of say £3 per month, but codexes must be cheaper say half price at least. They could even have a reward system of say a £10 irredeemable voucher for each 12 consecutive month subscription. so we don't need to 5 books and 5 FAQs just to play a damn game. No one has time for that :cuss. You can try and find torrents of the PDFs and then just upload them to your phone for live games.

 

I' not bored at all, but I must ask. How come you didn't go hard on going 2nd in these games?

 

You got very lucky on your first turn kill with the eliminators. But on the whole, you did okay. :)

 

Whirlwind of rage is nice, but an overkill for that detachment. Better to have gone with hungry for battle for when the chaplin isn't nearby

 

You killed a wizard? You mean a Dark Angel librarian or libby as many people call them?

 

I would sell off your whirlwinds and start using the latest iteration of the second list. Trust me, if your local gaming group thought your current list was hard, they ain't seen nothing yet. As the newest list is tougher to kill, hits harder and much faster!


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#63
Marauder112

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Yeah, it feels like they really try to make a good game by all the faqs and stuff but it goes to fast and rules change a quick I cant keep track of it.

Good question. I think I started because I got scared seeing all those dreadnoughts and having one warsuit standing midfield ready to charge me. But for really learning the list and to go out of my comfort zone I will go second again for the next battles.

With wizard I meant a librarian. I couldn't come up with the name however so thought wizard would be a clear way in putting it.

What changes/rumours that affect the eliminators you've heard of?

I saw the new list. Why did you choose the devastator centuarions with gravs instead of anything else? Because of the stratagem? I find 24 inch as a shooting range a little short for a 4 inch moving unit. You can deep strike it as well ofcourse but then you'd lose a turn of shooting.

#64
antique_nova

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Yeah, it feels like they really try to make a good game by all the faqs and stuff but it goes to fast and rules change a quick I cant keep track of it.

Good question. I think I started because I got scared seeing all those dreadnoughts and having one warsuit standing midfield ready to charge me. But for really learning the list and to go out of my comfort zone I will go second again for the next battles.

With wizard I meant a librarian. I couldn't come up with the name however so thought wizard would be a clear way in putting it.

What changes/rumours that affect the eliminators you've heard of?

I saw the new list. Why did you choose the devastator centuarions with gravs instead of anything else? Because of the stratagem? I find 24 inch as a shooting range a little short for a 4 inch moving unit. You can deep strike it as well ofcourse but then you'd lose a turn of shooting.

 

When you say wizard, people think of Gandalf and I'm having a hard time trying to take Gandalf in space marine armour seriously. XD

 

Nothing I heard affects them directly, it's more about how useful they are and how people are countering them. They're good, but not good enough.

 

I chose it because of the stratagem, nothing else. That's the point. You deep strike them, because in one turn, they'll do much damage than 2-3 turns of all 3 whirlwinds shooting. Also, if you suddenly had that 5 man centurion with big guns suddenly jump in front of you. Who would you target? Those 5 dudes or the 3 squads of 3 assault centurions backed up by 3 biker khans? That's just extremely difficult for anyone to deal with, especially once you've unloaded 12 melta guns, 20 grav cannon shots and whatever assault whatsits you've unleashed in the turn you've already deepstriked.

 

You also have 3 TFCs to clean out infantry screens and biker khans to take out tank screens. You shouldn't need anymore than that.

 

With the new list, you'll just be deepstriking all your centurions and nothing else, because that's all you can deepstrike with without going over the limit.

 

Also, if anyone does decide to send a flying unit or any unit to tie up your centurion devestators, you will have your smash captain and smash chaplin not far behind to help them out, since they'll be much slower, so you don't have to turn back and commit your khans on bikes or assault centurions to help them out AND you can use the Raven Guard stratagem for 2CP called "False Flight" to make that centurion devastator unit fall back and shoot and charge normally in the following turn. Pretty neat right?


Edited by antique_nova, 20 January 2020 - 03:13 AM.

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#65
Marauder112

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I used to play a lot of warhammer fantasy so I guess that's were the wizard comes from :P.

 

That the thing I don't really understand because they can fire at characters even without line of sight. Some armies have a stratagem for this, like the Iron Hands. Or some armies can deploy body guard units that take hits for characters on a 2+. But I don't believe a lot of armies can do this. I do admit that I don't play against a lot of different armies. 

I do agree that for 216 points they fulfill a specific role and for the same points you can probably get something more efficient. 

 

Haha perhaps I will try your new list once or twice (with even more devastator proxies) but I don't think I will use it. I mean, that many devastator models are sick! And with that I also mean moneywise :P. They are expensive. I have a reasonable part of the original 2th list (I'm working on 3 more devastators, one unit of eliminators and the last thunderfire cannon. Then I almost got everything. Right now I don't own any eliminators.

 

Changing the eliminators will save me a lot of money however because I got a lot of biker models which I can use as biker characters.  



#66
antique_nova

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It's actually about the same price as the previous list. Difference is, I'm getting my smash captain and chaplin converted with Primaris models. Tourny wise, I think most Tournament Organisers will allow it, because there's no real advantage to using a primaris base over a smaller space marine base for anything. Although, I'll have to ask my opponents each time if we can ignore the attached wings when determining LOS, because I want the cool factor, but it's really big!

 

To give you can idea of what I'm going for.

 

https://www.worthpoi...lain-1917673265

 

https://www.ebay.co....em=362887482208

 

I'm not bidding on the Ebay one, but those are what I want! I want them to be visual carnifex distractions! Bad thing is, I might suffer from favourite model syndrome and not just them how they're supposed to be used, because I don't want them to die! XD


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#67
Marauder112

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Holy Sh*t, that's a cool model indeed! I can understand you wanting to get them.

 

My friend and I just finished playing a fun experimental game. We had to proxy a lot of models unfortunately (thank god we have a lot of spare models for this). I played your older 2th list (I got to be honest, it is my favourite one. If only I had come up with it myself :P But you get all the honour for it. Also thanks for debating/talking with me on the lists as well!). My friend used your new list. We talked about them and were very curious about what would happen. It was a real massacre on both parts :-).

 

We didn't do the battle to insult you in any way. We just had no idea of the outcome and decided to give it a try. Ofcourse the outcome can change any time as a lot of things go different every battle. It was hands down the most fun battle i've played since a while. It wasn't really over until the end of turn 4.

 

A little resume of the battle and some things that stood out: 

- He got the first turn, I choose Search and Destroy to get a lot of space like you adviced me to. It worked because he couldn't charge me in the first turn. He killed all my scouts but failed to kill anything else because everything was racing towards me. In my first turn I killed all his scouts as wel. Here I found a weakness of the newest list (it could be because against the list I used didn't needed LOS). But after his scouts died, which I killed first with my Thunderfire cannons, He only had characters left and 3 thunderfire cannons in the back. the rest was hiding in deep strike. So I could target his characters with my whirlwinds and eliminators. I shot an extra time and was able to kill his chaplain with all of my eliminators (shot all without having line of sight). And 4 whirwinds and the fleetmaster ability killed 1 Khan and wounding another one. In the meantime I placed the eliminators on buildings so that the khan's weren't able to charge me. I had to sacrifice one unit though to keep my second anti deepstrike line intact.

- The 2th turn he deep struck the devastators and 1 unit of assault cents. They killed a whirlwind and all the eliminators got killed. The last eliminator model because of his smash captain charging in. No more screen for me.

- In my 2th turn I just deployed all my assault cents to do their thing and to use them also as an anti deepstrike line. He used auspex scan with his devastator cents and man was it great! It killed 2 of my centaurion models. All of my fire destroyed his 3 assault cents and killed 3 of the 5 devastator ones. I also managed to kill his last 2 Khan's with shooting. This was with all my melta guns, hurricane bolters and whirlwinds and thunderfire cannons. Because I switched to the tactical doctrine my bolters did some more damage. I then charged his smash captain with a combined charge and my other smash captain was able to kill the remaining 2 devastor models.

- In his turn 3 his last 2 centurion units came in. I saved my last 2 CP to auspex scan him as well and I also were able to kill 2 of his centurion models with my 6 melta's and huricane bolters. His last 4 cents models then started to shoot me down and assault me killing a total of: 1 smash captain, 4 centurion models (existing of 2 units). Brutal!

- In my turn 3 I managed to kill his last 4 centurion models and his last biker, the warlord. I managed to do this with my whole army shooting and my last smash captain and chaplain charging in. At this point he only had 3 thunderfire cannons left which my whirlwind took care of in the next 2 turns. One strange thing that happend though: The 2 techs that had no cannon left to fire moved forward in his 4th and 5th turn. Overcharging plasma, flamers and the last thunderfire cannon firing ad my last unit of 3 cents. They killed half the unit. Then they both charged, overwatch did nothing, and with 4 servo-arms killed the remaining half of my cents. Haha what a sight it was. I would never expected that!

- In my last turn I killed the remaining cannon with my 2 whirlwinds and killed the tech standing behind it with my 3 thunderfire cannons. Then charged the last 2 techs (that killed my cents) with my captain and chaplain, killing them as well.

 

I had 2 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons, 1 smash captain and 1 chaplain left, 679 points. He had nothing left. It was a close battle with things dying everywere. Coolest battle so far IMO. Again I don't try to tell you the newest list isn't good with this report. It is. I just wanted to let you know what happend because like I said, it was one of my coolest battles so far.

Perhaps you have some thoughts on how things could be played better or that could change the outcome? I had the advantage of playing the list like 5 times before and you helped me with getting acquainted with it.



#68
antique_nova

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Hey no worries, I'm not insulted at all! In fact, I was very curious and excited to read this report! And boy did it not disappoint me!

 

I'm assuming he got first turn snd you're right, you won because you're far more familiar with this list and I hadn't come up with a tactic if they went head to head. Plus, he didn't know how to use the latest version to it's full potential.

 

With that being said, let's get to it!

 

So, what I would have done against you instead would have been.

 

Pre game: Use "Hero of the Chapter" to give my smash captain or chaplin the Raven Guard warlord trait "Master of Ambush" and since I'm going first, I would have deployed first. So, depending on the terrain, I'd either grab the flamer assault centurions and place them as far forward as I could. That way, after your TFC killed all my scouts, your whirlwinds would only be able to shoot the centurions since they're the closest visible unit (12 shots, 11 hits after rerolls, 8 wounds and 4 failed saves, so 2 dead and you'd kill off the final guy in the assault phase.)

 

Thing is, you won't have targeted any of my khans.

 

First turn: I'd have my TFCs shoot your eliminators (32 shots, 31 hits, 24 wounds, 16 unsaved wounds - 8 dead) with rerolls to miss hits and wounds from the biker captain. Depending on how well spread out your scouts are, I'd probably either shoot them with my flamer centurions and/or assault them with my biker khans and my smash captain. I expect to lose all my scouts and 3 flamer assault centurions. 

 

Second turn: All khans race towards your whirlwinds and TFCs and try to get into combat with as many of them as possible. My TFCs will try to kill as many of your characters as possible who are now exposed after finish off the remaining eliminators/scouts if need be. Will I then deepstrike the remaining 2 melta centurion squads and 5 man grav centurions? Honestly? I don't know, I may do just that, since your scouts are your outer line of defence. But in short, If I can get a good LOS to more than a few of them, I will deepstrike them and have my smash captain/chaplin and maybe a single biker form an anti-deepstrike ring around my grav centurions to prevent your centurions from assaulting them or even getting within melta range.

 

Third turn: The khans continue munching on your artillery, I will send more help if need be, while my grav centurions shoot everything to hell and the rest of my centurions and characters as as anti-DS denial units and my TFCs provide fire support where needed. As long as that is happening, which there is a high chance of it doing so, and you can't even touch my grav centurions. I win without losing more than half my army.

 

But let's say that something does go wrong in turn 1 and I need to deepstrike another centurion unit to keep my characters alive. I will do that and use "see, but remain unseen" on that unit to -1 to your BS. Also, if need be, I can hide a single khan on a bike with the "encirclement" stratagem so that they can appear within 6" of a table edge, but more than 9" away from the enemy model by turn 2, but I don't think I will do that.

 

The key tactic here is, have a centurion squad that you're willing to sacrifice and spend as many CPs as you need to soak up the enemy firepower for your deepstriking next turn and focus your attention on those who can ignore it instead of the scouts. Like the eliminators.

 

If played properly, the newest list should be beating you quite comfortably, because it'll all be decided by the end of the first player to finish their turn 2. When you play against better lists and opponents, target prioritisation matters a lot.

 

Although, I have been thinking about adding more units to handle what you thought was a weak point, as I am aware of it. Since I'd rather sacrifice 100 pts of something else rather than a centurion unit and after doing a little thinking, I've decided to take out a single devastator centurion with its missile launcher for an impulsor with 2 storm bolters (which is 1pt cheaper!) That's 11 T7 wounds and can travel 17-20" in a single turn! It also has a -2" to be charged and can fly. In my turn, I can just advance it right into your face and not shoot and then use "seen, but remain unseen" for that -1 BS and you'll only be able to cause about 6 wounds on average from all your whirlwinds. That way I don't need to sacrifice a 156 pt centurion unit, but only an 80 pt centurion unit. This also gives me more smite protection as well and I'll just keep running him at you (but away from any smash characters if possible) until he reaches your artillery and ties them all up in combat.

 

You might also be thinking, why not just upgrade the scouts into infiltrators? My reasoning is, what if I deploy 2nd and the enemy has scouts? I don't have any unit to keep up with the khans charging down at the enemy. The impulsor is the only thing that can keep up with the khans on bikes.

 

Also, did your friend have fun as well? Did he enjoy that blood bath? And what does he think now once you've shared what I've do in his place? Because now your list which seemed unbeatable before, is now very much beatable and reliably. tongue.png


Edited by antique_nova, 20 January 2020 - 11:03 PM.

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#69
Marauder112

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The master of ambush is a nice move. I use it in my full raven guard army. That's smart thinking but what if I go first?

If you ambush the flamer centurions and your chaplain or smash captain they would probably stand in charge range of my captains after moving. Otherwise I could use the raven stratagem to let one or two move up pregame. I would target your thunderfire cannons with my whirlwinds first. I would destroy at least 2 (shooting twice will be used if needed) and if I'm rolling hot perhaps 3. But 2 destroyed would be more likely the outcome. This would really help me keep my screens alive long enough.
My thunderfire's would stick to the plan and kill the scouts.

My smash captains would attack and probably kill the 3 centurion models. I would try to charge from the shadows out of line of sight or from 9 inch away. With the +2 from the chaplain I should make the charge, otherwise i need the cp reroll.

My eliminators would either go for the smash captain (properly not killing him in 1 go) or the chaplain (a reasonable change to kill him).

The problem is that this would leave my 2 captains close enough for your khans and smash captain to charge them.but I think it's worth the risk. I expect to lose the 2 captains.

Next turn one or more centurions would drop in because there are only characters and 1 cannon left on the field. I think I only deploy 1 out of the 3 in order to have something to counter your big boys. My army should kill a few characters in the whole turn. I think I would save the last 2 cp for an auspex scan when your boys drop (should be the last 2 cp).

Ofcourse it also depends on a lot of things but I think that would be my first stage game plan. When killing 2 of the cannons there is a good chance of me having a screen left for a turn (scouts, eliminators or even the charging captains when you should go for something else instead of them).

But even then it could go wrong haha. The one who gets the first turn has a good advantage I think.

Good point on another unit as a screen instead of expensive cents. As I'm writing this i see your note about the impuslor. Good one.

As I see it the newest list has a few weak spots (correct me if I'm wrong):
- low on cheapish screens to protect characters from enemy shooting. (The impulsor could make a great deal. It can also pop smoke for a -1 to hit. Did you give it the 4++ as well?).
- 4 bike characters who cant do anything against an unit standing on higher ground.
- no first turn anti armour so I don't have to hide my whirlwinds behind cover. Instead i can park them in plain sight against the furthest backline (48 inch by 72 inch is a normal table where I'm playing so the bikers with the average 28 inch charge range wouldn't be able to make it first turn.

I wouldn't shoot the impulsor with the whirlwinds because it would indeed be ineffective. I would rather go for your cannons (if I start I would for sure). The impulsor I would charge with a captain because I keep them near my parking lots when I face an assaulting army. Most of the times I have 2 or 3 spots. Against this list I only had one wider spot because of the lack of heavy weapons. So all my character guarded them. I also kept the scouts next to them to not give charging khans a speed bump in the first turn.

The whirlwinds are not so good against t8 vechicles and have only an average of 4 shots. But I seem to face a lot of t7 light vehicles (8 till 10 wounds) and 2 wound models which they are great for. They shoot down a dreadnought a turn. In return their army most of the time only sees 1 whirlwind with a small portion of his army. Most battles I lost only 1 and another was shot down to 5 or 6 wounds. Then the centurions drop and the wounded whirlwind would healed slowly by the techs.

What do you think of the points I listed? And can they be improved? I would love to see your new version when it's done.

#70
antique_nova

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The impulsor has no smoke.

The bikers would make the charge in the second turn.

If you deploy them out in the open, there's a good chance that the dev centurions turning up on their 2nd turn could smoke them to death.

The fact that I have 4 bikers who can't go into buildings (maybe one of them can due to a relic) doesn't bother me too much. Because it depends on the amount of terrain on the table and what type as well (I'm not even sure if you have too much or too little terrain)

 

Here's the thing though, when you go first, you have the advantage of deploying a 3rd anti-DS screen in your 2nd turn, before I can even have mine. The same applies to the new list as well. When you reach a certain strength with lists, especially ones where they're almost mirror matches, it's often all about who goes first. Because I'm quite confident that if the new list goes first, it wins against the old one and vice versa. In those scenarios, you have little control over and it becomes who makes the least number of mistakes and has the greatest luck and that is what you simply can't plan for, nor should you.

 

The impulsor more than makes up for replacing the eliminators for screening the characters against enemy shooting. There doesn't really need to be first turn anti-armour either and you can't really count the whirlwinds as anti-armour either.

 

The real question you should be asking is, which list can beat more of the meta comfortably right now? My bet is on the newer list.

 

Also, I want to share that the original 2nd list idea wasn't mine. It was taken from a guy called "Mani Cheema", who is the first person I saw who came up with the triple whirlwind, triple TFC Imperial Fist army idea. He was even the first one I saw, to combine that with the Raven Guard Successors deepstriking centurions. I took out the centurion devastators at the time, since I thought I could do better. So, I can't exactly take credit for the idea. The RG one was obvious to me and I came up with it at the same time as everyone else, while the Imperial Fist thing was a complete surprise to me.

 

However, Mani has won Grand Tournaments with his lists. The reason why he doesn't have all the same missiles on his whirlwinds is because he lacked the points, but here are a few links to some of his victories.

 

https://www.40kstats.com/bloodandglory

 

In fact that event was held literally in the same city I was in, but I didn't go that event. Wish I could have though! 

 

However, Mani seems to have perfected the list in the most unusual of ways.

 

 

The 3 relic whirlwind scorpius (average 36x S6 AP3 D2 with heavy doctrine no cover shots per turn) + 3x TFC, 3x Suppressor squads, 3x quad launchers on rapier carriers T5 W4 +3 (average 24 S5 AP1 D1 heavy doctrine no cover save OOLOS shots per turn at 60" or 12x S8 AP3 D3 shots per turn at 24") - I can tell you this much. If you ever faced such a list, you'd face a very touch time with that. You'd lose all your scouts, eliminators and maybe any characters within the first turn if they go first and it's highly likely that you'll lose them even if you went first. Sure, your centurions could go in and take them out later. But if they split up, you're going to have a really tough time. That last unit is a forgeworld unit given the launchers in the FAQ. They're 85 pts each for all those shots together. If they have a chapter master, that is just an absolutely disgusting amount of OOLOS firepower.

 

Also, remember that the above army has the Imperial Fists special rule. All heavy weapons deal an additional damage against vehicles and buildings.

 

The key to beating that army is to take down those relic whirlwinds asap, who are thankfully just as easy to take down as normal whirlwinds. However, they do have one weakness, the range of their scorpius launchers are only 48". So you can out range in the first turn if deployed carefully and if he wants to get within range, he either has to wait or deploy very far forwards. If you out range him with your whirlwinds, you could technically take 10 wounds off a whirlwind per turn with your own, while your TFCs can take off 8 wounds off another relic whirlwind by having one of them shoot twice. That should be enough to put his whirlwinds out of commission. Later you can focus on taking out the suppressors and scouts.

 

But if I were that IF player, I'd make sure that my scorpius whirlwinds were deployed within range of your whirlwinds and failing that, I'd drive up and shoot them, sure I only get half the shots, but if I can take out your whirlwinds it will be worth it. I'd then use the Imperial Fist TFCs to take out your TFCs, and I'd be able to take out 2 of them with one shooting twice. So, you'd only be left with one TFC, two whirlwinds left, smash captain, 1 scout unit (2 dead due to the rapiers) and 3 eliminators. 

 

You'd then do you thing, but can't get close enough to the relic whirlwinds and they'd basically shoot the rest of your army off the board and move their suppressors up, to create a big enough anti-deepstrike zone and then your centurions arrive, but since they can't get close enough, they'll land off target and get shot to bits.

 

With my list, sure, everything I have would get shot to bits a bit faster as well. But I have more in reserve, I'd draw the Imperial Fist player out and park my impulsor and white scar khans as far away from him as possible. The khans in theory should survive without a scratch or more or less survived by the start of my turn 2 if he went first and I would have had a chance to take out all his scouts by then. I'd then use one of my centurion squads to blow a hole in his defences by killing his suppressors who will obviously be trying to fill in the anti-DS hole that the scouts have left open and then in my 3rd turn, I'd bring in the rest and hope that it'll be enough to take out his whirlwinds. Because dear god, it will be a very close game. Where as with the old list, I'd stand no chance if I went 2nd.

 

And finally, check my 3rd list. I spent a lot of time redoing it from the base up after thinking about everything that I just wrote. I think it basically solves all of Mani's weaknesses, because those relic whirlwinds are just freaking overkill!


Edited by antique_nova, 30 January 2020 - 04:05 AM.

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#71
Marauder112

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I just looked at your 3th list and I think it's the best one by far. It reminds me why I hate forgeworld :P. Those rapier carriers are sick.
I also did some dice rolling with the devastator cents and they are imo better then the grav versions with the imperial fists and 2 stratagems you can use (making sixes to hit explode into 2 hits and the +1 to wound against vehicles) make them really good against hordes and vehicles.

Did you tried the 3th list during a few battles?
I think you really stepped it up with the 3th one. I want to try it and see how it plays.

#72
antique_nova

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I just looked at your 3th list and I think it's the best one by far. It reminds me why I hate forgeworld tongue.png. Those rapier carriers are sick.
I also did some dice rolling with the devastator cents and they are imo better then the grav versions with the imperial fists and 2 stratagems you can use (making sixes to hit explode into 2 hits and the +1 to wound against vehicles) make them really good against hordes and vehicles.

Did you tried the 3th list during a few battles?
I think you really stepped it up with the 3th one. I want to try it and see how it plays.

I've updated it again, after getting some feedback from a close gaming buddy of mine. Check it again.


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#73
Marauder112

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I would switch the captains chainfists to normal fists to get below the 2000 points.

So the eliminators returned! :-). I did like the 3 units of bolter cents.
I assume you decided to make 1 unit of 6 centurions for the stratagems?

Edited by Marauder112, 21 January 2020 - 05:59 PM.


#74
antique_nova

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I would switch the captains chainfists to normal fists to get below the 2000 points.

So the eliminators returned! :-). I did like the 3 units of bolter cents.
I assume you decided to make 1 unit of 6 centurions for the stratagems?

 

I've refined the Imperial Fist list. I couldn't fit in a 3rd whirlwind, because all the heavy slots were taken up.


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#75
Marauder112

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I just looked a the newest list. Why did you choose to include the reivers? I've tried them a few times but found them lackluster most of the time.

I like the return of a smash captain (cheaper version). Imo they are a better choice then the 3 slow walking captains in the older version.

And why did you cut the rapier carriers? Were they not a good addition?




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