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Land Speeders Disscussion

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#1
Aothaine

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Hey everyone! So I'm working on building my speedy Iron Hands list, finally got all the books I need to build it, and I'm trying to decide how to kit out my Land Speeders. My Core is scout squads in Land Speeder Storms, you can see the build below. I'm planning on running a least four and max six of these scout units and I'm trying to figure out how to fill out the rest of the army. I'm looking at Land Speeders for now to see if it is a possible option.

 

EDIT: Edited this post just in case someone want to see the builds I ended up going with. The combi-meltas on the scout squads are not really necessary I just had spare points left in my list and threw the comi-meltas onto the Sgts. But the better build is to just run with a storm bolter on the Sgt.

 

-= Land Speeder Build =-

 

[FA] Land Speeders (3 Speeders)

- Heavy Bolter, Typhoon Missile Launcher x3

 

-= Scout Squad Builds =-

 

[T] Scout Squad (5-man)

- Combi-meta, Bolter x3, Missile Launcher

- Land Speeder Storm: Heavy Bolter & Cerebus Launcher

 

[T] Scout Squad (5-man)

- Storm Bolter, Bolter x3, Missile Launcher

- Land Speeder Storm: Heavy Bolter & Cerebus Launcher


Edited by Aothaine, 10 December 2019 - 12:07 AM.


#2
tychobi

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I like the bolter and typhoon option. Range synergy.
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#3
Exilyth

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I'd go with heavy bolters for cheap dakka (tbh. assault bikes do cheap heavy bolters better, but are less on theme), heavy bolter + typhoon for TAC.

The low range on multimelters is unfortunably not worth it this edition (except as <salamanders> maybe, but they have better multimelter platforms).

 

I'd run 2x Typhoon + 1x Heavy bolter (saves some points and each squad can take one loss without giving up much firepower).

This also fits thematically with the scout squads having missile launchers.

 

This depends on how heavily I'd invest into Landspeeders though - having 3 to fill FA slots w/1 each, I'd run them with the same loadout.

Running multiple squads, I'd go with 2 of the above + maybe, maaaaybe one of 3x heavy bolter, but I'm not sure I'd run such a large number of Landspeeders outside of a theme force.

 

 

With an army so focussed around landspeeders, have you considered the landspeeder tempest from forgeworld?

From what I hear, it's not as 'competetive' as normal landspeeders, but would be another option for the FA slots w/assault cannon + salvo launchers.


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#4
Aothaine

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I like the bolter and typhoon option. Range synergy.

 

Range synergy true. I'm just worried about investing so much into units that might not be very effective against vehicles.

 

I'd go with heavy bolters for cheap dakka (tbh. assault bikes do cheap heavy bolters better, but are less on theme), heavy bolter + typhoon for TAC.

The low range on multimelters is unfortunably not worth it this edition (except as <salamanders> maybe, but they have better multimelter platforms).

 

I'd run 2x Typhoon + 1x Heavy bolter (saves some points and each squad can take one loss without giving up much firepower).

This also fits thematically with the scout squads having missile launchers.

 

This depends on how heavily I'd invest into Landspeeders though - having 3 to fill FA slots w/1 each, I'd run them with the same loadout.

Running multiple squads, I'd go with 2 of the above + maybe, maaaaybe one of 3x heavy bolter, but I'm not sure I'd run such a large number of Landspeeders outside of a theme force.

 

 

With an army so focussed around landspeeders, have you considered the landspeeder tempest from forgeworld?

From what I hear, it's not as 'competetive' as normal landspeeders, but would be another option for the FA slots w/assault cannon + salvo launchers.

 

 

Hmm, I thought about that as well. Running a LS with just one HB but decided against it. The platforms that land speeders are need to have some threat imho, but also need to pack a punch. I can see the argument for dropping the multi-melta and staying at 36" if possible to avoid double tapping but they I'm really relying on the missile launchers to do most of the damage. Not sure if this is a good or bad approach yet. If I do drop the Multi-meltas though I will be running 3x3 typhoons.

 

Ohh and in regards to Forgeworld. I'm still not 100% on whether or not I want to invest in it. There is a strong argument to avoid Forgeworld entirely, at least for the beginning.

 

Really appreciate the discussion btw

 

So Right now the list is looking something like this then...

 

Spoiler


#5
Exilyth

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While astartes heavy support units are all not very mobile, the eliminators feel like the lightest choice.

 

A TFC would not be mobile itself, but could impair enemy mobility, so it is slightly on theme I guess? - I would only run one though for the stratagem.

A hunter/stalker/whirlwind could provide cover to the TFC while benefitting from the techmarine gunners repairs - a whirlwind would add indirect fire while a hunter/stalker would cover AA, but I'm not sure whether either unit would be too 'heavy' for the theme of this list.

 

 

I'd maybe reduce one of the FA Landspeeder squads down to one w/heavy bolter and add another scout squad (w/ speeder) instead - more bodies for grabbing objectives, but your meta & mileage may vary.

 

I can't really give much advice on combi weapons for scouts as I tend to not run combi weapons on scout squads, but I'd run squads which use combi weapons w/bolters for synergy. I'm just not sold on melta weapons this edition - gambling on a single shot is too unreliable imho. A combi-flamer could be a useful alternative to a combi-melter with the high mobility offsetting the short range and the autohitting would allow both profiles to be used without much loss of firepower from the -1 to hit for firing both. I'm really not sure though, maybe just dropping the combi weapons and using the points for something else would be more usefull.

 

 

With the suggested changes (-landspeeders, +scouts & dropping combi-melters), you would have 11 missile launchers - 5 from scout squads and 6 Typhoon missile launchers, for a total of 17 krak missile shots. That's not lascannons, but quite an AT punch for a TAC list and probably enough unless you expect to regularly face skew lists like knights.


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#6
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I have been thinking about my Typhoons (with HBs) for a while now as they need the repaint finishing. With the supplement rules for IH they've become a lot better, and this has removed one of the key issues I've had with speeders in the -1 to hit. My core lists are a bit slow so I lose some initiative and momentum the first turn or two as I need to slug it out with the enemy to make some room for a methodical advance but this has some holes in.

 

A couple of Typhoons to speed around and give me some reach would do well I reckon. My LSS doesn't see a huge amount of use, but has been effective along with my Scouts so I can see that working for you. My Typhoons are old, but I still think the HB is the right choice as it helps keeps costs down and gives it decent range - the MM is too dangerous on a weak platform so won't get much chance to fire :confused:

 

I think there's some potential in going heavy on speeders - saturation is always a thing - plus the mobility you'll have will confound many opponents and their plans! Keep us updating on your progress :tu:


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#7
casb1965

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If you're thinking of an all Landspeeder force but want At then look at flyers. They can provide AT and be thematical.



#8
Rodrick

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what about suppressors??, same slot, 3 point dif with the typhon speeder, can deepstrike


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#9
Aothaine

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While astartes heavy support units are all not very mobile, the eliminators feel like the lightest choice.

 

A TFC would not be mobile itself, but could impair enemy mobility, so it is slightly on theme I guess? - I would only run one though for the stratagem.

A hunter/stalker/whirlwind could provide cover to the TFC while benefitting from the techmarine gunners repairs - a whirlwind would add indirect fire while a hunter/stalker would cover AA, but I'm not sure whether either unit would be too 'heavy' for the theme of this list.

 

 

I'd maybe reduce one of the FA Landspeeder squads down to one w/heavy bolter and add another scout squad (w/ speeder) instead - more bodies for grabbing objectives, but your meta & mileage may vary.

 

I can't really give much advice on combi weapons for scouts as I tend to not run combi weapons on scout squads, but I'd run squads which use combi weapons w/bolters for synergy. I'm just not sold on melta weapons this edition - gambling on a single shot is too unreliable imho. A combi-flamer could be a useful alternative to a combi-melter with the high mobility offsetting the short range and the autohitting would allow both profiles to be used without much loss of firepower from the -1 to hit for firing both. I'm really not sure though, maybe just dropping the combi weapons and using the points for something else would be more usefull.

 

 

With the suggested changes (-landspeeders, +scouts & dropping combi-melters), you would have 11 missile launchers - 5 from scout squads and 6 Typhoon missile launchers, for a total of 17 krak missile shots. That's not lascannons, but quite an AT punch for a TAC list and probably enough unless you expect to regularly face skew lists like knights.

 

I can absolutely see a TFC + Whirlwind doing some work for sure. Good catch on the tech marine being able to repair the Whirlwind as well. Yeah, the original idea behind the scouts with the LSS was to have them fill multiple roles. But getting up close like that is a silly decision. I'll have to double check but I think I can give the Sgt a storm bolter. If I can do that I'll do that and switch the shotguns to bolters as well. Need to stay nimble and free of assault. I had originally wanted six of the scout and LSS units. But dang they are expensive and I wasn't sure about dropping almost 1k onto just troops. Though it might not be a bad idea. The [FA] Land Speeder units are expensive for sure though.

 

 

I think there's some potential in going heavy on speeders - saturation is always a thing - plus the mobility you'll have will confound many opponents and their plans! Keep us updating on your progress thumbsup.gif

 

Yup that is the idea of the list. Just need to keep thinking about how I'm going to build the rest of it. I've been thinking about running a big unit of Assault Terminators in the list. Using the Land Speeders to coral and then drop in 10 TH/SS terminators with a Terminator Chaplain and Terminator Librarian. This might actually be the best approach. I'll have to look into it a bit more on my lunch.

 

I'm still undecided on which faction I'm going to be playing/building for LVO 2021 and my summer campaigns of 2020. But I'll be deciding after CA2019. 

 

If you're thinking of an all Landspeeder force but want At then look at flyers. They can provide AT and be thematical.

 

 

Flyers might be an option. I'll have to give it some thought.

 

 

what about suppressors??, same slot, 3 point dif with the typhon speeder, can deepstrike

 

I'll look into them. The thing with Land Speeders is that I get three of them on a very fast platform. But I'll look into suppressors and see if they are an option.


Edited by Aothaine, 07 November 2019 - 10:22 PM.


#10
Black Blow Fly

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If you go with flyers the Stormhawk is the most bang for the buck.
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#11
Aothaine

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If you go with flyers the Stormhawk is the most bang for the buck.

 

Yeah for sure. I'm not even really positive I want flyers yet though. Also need to wait for PA 2 to release as it might really change up my list. Medusan Furore is making me want to include the bash chaplain into my list with a small unit of Primaris in an Impulsor that races up the field with the rest of the stuff to cause some havoc. I will have to drop the eliminators for it though. So, still debating on how I want to proceed with this. Also, if I can squeeze three of the gunships into the list it would be nice as well. Give the list some serious punch that it might otherwise be lacking right now. But points are already tight. I'll try and figure out how to mix it up later.

 

Regardless, Land Speeders are a go. I've given it a few weeks thought, and while I wanted to wait for CA2019 I'm going to decide early. Iron Hands it is. Easy paint scheme. Rules that work really well with the army I want to build. Rules to build on and enjoy after I get out of this Land Speeder phase I'm in right now lol! :D

 

Thank you everyone for your time and comments!



#12
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My next project is looking like Gorgons as well.
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#13
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Have you guys seen the price drop for the Javelin Speeder (-52) and the Tempest (50) ? Game changer imo
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#14
Aothaine

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Have you guys seen the price drop for the Javelin Speeder (-52) and the Tempest (50) ? Game changer imo

 

Yup. I looked at the data slates but I'm not sure they really fit for the army I was going for. The missile launchers are so strong with IH. S8 -3 Dd6 is pretty damned crazy. The list I built has 22 missile shots when at full strength, incredible mobility and two hammer units in the cataphractii terminator units. Really hoping to get it up and running for summer 2020.


Edited by Aothaine, 15 December 2019 - 09:58 PM.

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#15
RedFox

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The Javelin does have the missile launchers no?

#16
Aothaine

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The Javelin does have the missile launchers no?

 

Yeah it can have twin-linked launchers. But I'm not sure how they are taken. I actually was not able to find the Land Speeder Javelin rules for 40k :P

 

Found some info on them on Reddit. Yeah... nope. I like Land Speeder Squadrons. I also want to stay away from Forge World. I live in the US and that stuff is so expensive.



#17
Aothaine

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Was thinking about this list again. Against hordes this army is going to shred!!

 

Missile Launchers: 22D6 S4 -1 D1 shots (Avg 68-82)

Heavy Bolters: 39 S5 -2 D1 shots

Scout Bolters & Combi-weapons: 16 S4 -0 D1 shots (Without bolter drill) 32 (with bolter drill)

 

Terminator Combi-bolters: 40 S4 -0 D1 shots (With bolter drill)

 

Some seriously crazy firepower in my list lol. Also, the Heavy Bolters and Missile Launchers reroll 1s to hit due to Iron Hands. Let the good times roll! 


Edited by Aothaine, 18 December 2019 - 01:35 AM.


#18
faithonwings

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Use a succesor chapter, stealth for extra toughness on the speeders en master artistan would be good too.



#19
Aothaine

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Use a succesor chapter, stealth for extra toughness on the speeders en master artistan would be good too.

 

Stealth is nice but I don't think it is worth giving up the 6+++ and 5+ overwatch. Also, Iron Hands already have innate reroll 1s with heavy weapons. Which most of the weapons in my list are heavy. Just the bolters, combi-bolters and storm bolters are not heavy. But I'll be camping in Heavy Doctrine most of the game only switching to Tactical towards the end when all I have left are bolter weapons and then into assault if necessary.



#20
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Ravenwing player here, I think I my experience might be relevant to the conversation.

 

Always go for the 2nd weapon on a Land Speeder.

You aren't saving points by not taking that 2nd weapon, you are just reducing the effectiveness of the unit, and you would probably be better served with a different unit.

Would you ever take a Dev Squad with only a single heavy bolter... no, you would take a Tactical or Scout squad instead because they are scoring units.

 

I have found that the best load outs are HB/TML and HB/AC.

TML are better than MM because they have twice the range and twice the number of shots.

AC are great at clearing infantry off objectives.

 

The HF is great if you get charged, but I only take one in squadrons of 4+ speeders.

Speeders did get a nice boost in their assault capability, they now fight like 2 tactical marines, but that also means that speeders suck in assault because they fight like 2 tactical marines.

So you should probably avoid both HF and Assault.

 

I prefer running them as squadrons.

3+ speeders gets you +4 inches of movement, which is like getting the benefit of advancing, without the drawback of not getting to shoot.

 

If you go for a second squadron, I'd suggest taking 3 HB/AC speeders to pair with your 3 HB/TML speeders.

If you plan to push deeper into the speeder theme, a 2nd squadron of 3 HB/AC speeders will serve you well.

After that you just need 2 more speeders (Sableclaw and Talonmaster) and you will have a nice start to your Ravenwing army.

 

Plus it looks great on the table.

med_gallery_8790_12266_286158.jpg


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#21
Aothaine

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I really appreciate the advice here. Just want to point out that I'm playing Iron Hands. :D There are quite a few reasons for this. First, the Iron Hands can move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. So the Land Speeders are hitting with the TML and HBs at 3+ always. They are also rerolling 1s to hit because of Iron Hands. Huge bonuses to Land Speeders imho.

 

I really like the HB + TML setup as it gives each Land Speeders the ability to deal with pretty much what ever my opponent drops down on the board. They can shred hordes with bolter fire equivalent frag missiles or they can take out hard targets with the d6 dmg krak missiles.

 

I don't have access to the huge land speeder squads like Dark Angels do sadly. But to be fair my list hit 2k points exactly with just adding in a few special weapons that help the other units deal with hard targets. I think Land Speeders are an amazingly fun way to play Space Marines and by the looks of the pic you posted. You agree.

 

Do you have any other suggestions based off your play of the Land Speeders in 8th? I plan on writing a tactica regarding Land Speeders in a year or so after I've finished my army and got to play a few games. So far I've does proxy text scenarios but nothing that can cover the variability of a full game yet.



#22
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What I like about speeders is that in units of 3+ they get a move of 20 inches, plus the range of an assault cannon means that I have a threat range of 44 inches.

When you consider most units in the game are going to have a move of 6 inches with a gun that shoots 24 to 30 inch.

So even thought I'm going to be out numbered by quite a large margin, I have full control of how our forces engage.

 

If you are playing using the long board edge as your side you can use your speed to shift your forces to a flank taking the other flank out of range.

It is rare that I ever face someone who has similar ranged threats on both flanks that can reach down the long axis of the board, but your mileage may vary.

 

If you are playing using the short board edge as your side, you can use the clumps of terrain and your opponents stacked deployment to just move far enough to engage the closest forces, while keeping the forces farther back out of range.

You may still have to deal with longer range units in his backfield, but I often find that they'll set their key units like Dev squads close to the center of the board so that they can get to your entire deployment zone, which also means you can get to them turn one. 

 

If you have the option of setting up terrain with your opponent, start thinking about the game before hand.

Does your opponent have a static force?  Don't build a fort for him, and sabotage his efforts to build one.

Your force doesn't need a fort, but you do need cover that you can bounce to.

Take into consideration your move vs his, put gaps that he'll have to advance to cross.

But also take care that you block all of the fire lanes, you don't want him camping on his back edge with a clear LOS to large sections of the table.

 

Objectives are another key area, if you have the choice on where some go.

Instead of putting some in terrain, put some just far enough outside of terrain that he has to break cover to control it.

Also consider putting several together away from the fort you opponent built.

This will make him have to abandon that fort in order to grab the objectives.

 

Personally I don't have my gunships camp objectives, it just feels weird to do so.

They will swing over to objectives on their way around the board, but I'm am hardly ever there 2 turns in a row.

But that means if the mission is controlling objectives your opponent can wrack up more points that you can make up in as little as 2 turns.

So you need to keep your mind on the mission and now allow units to sit 2 turns on an objective.

 

That objective part isn't always possible and is key way my speeder list gets beat.

Ironically those games typically end with my opponent being tabled before turn 4, but since he sat on 2 objectives during the first 2 turns he still wins.

Since I'm playing for fun, I find that result funny.

 

*edit* grammar check.


Edited by ValourousHeart, 20 December 2019 - 10:02 PM.

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#23
faithonwings

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Use a succesor chapter, stealth for extra toughness on the speeders en master artistan would be good too.


Stealth is nice but I don't think it is worth giving up the 6+++ and 5+ overwatch. Also, Iron Hands already have innate reroll 1s with heavy weapons. Which most of the weapons in my list are heavy. Just the bolters, combi-bolters and storm bolters are not heavy. But I'll be camping in Heavy Doctrine most of the game only switching to Tactical towards the end when all I have left are bolter weapons and then into assault if necessary.

+1 to cover is statisticly beter than 6+++ to keep stuff alive. You do have 1's to reroll but with master artistan you can reroll a 2 (or 3-6 if modifiers are in play) you lose the overwatch buff but it's best to try and avoid getting charged anyway. Anyway.. just my 2 cents
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#24
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Use a succesor chapter, stealth for extra toughness on the speeders en master artistan would be good too.


Stealth is nice but I don't think it is worth giving up the 6+++ and 5+ overwatch. Also, Iron Hands already have innate reroll 1s with heavy weapons. Which most of the weapons in my list are heavy. Just the bolters, combi-bolters and storm bolters are not heavy. But I'll be camping in Heavy Doctrine most of the game only switching to Tactical towards the end when all I have left are bolter weapons and then into assault if necessary.

+1 to cover is statisticly beter than 6+++ to keep stuff alive. You do have 1's to reroll but with master artistan you can reroll a 2 (or 3-6 if modifiers are in play) you lose the overwatch buff but it's best to try and avoid getting charged anyway. Anyway.. just my 2 cents

 

+1 cover is only nice if you opponent doesn't have Ignore Cover.

5+ Overwatch is nice until you consider how crappy speeders are in assault.

And a 6++ is nice if you have it, but you both are missing the point of the fighting style of speeders.

 

Out of Range and No LOS is what you are looking for.

If you are Out of Range, nothing can shoot you.

If you are Out of LOS then only things that can shoot indirect can shoot you.

Speeders are only T5, and you are between 77 and 89 points per model, which means that all infantry can wound you on 5+ or better and even elite infantry is going to outnumber you 3 or 4 to 1.

 

Now you have 6 wounds each, but that just means that armies that are geared toward taking out MSU marine armies are going to find that their averages are off slightly.

Mainly due to the +1T and +1W you have over a marine combat squad, but that is only going to result in them being 1W off killing a model.

 

Now defensively, yes go ahead and shoot overwatch if charged, but really dive into the question of "What did I do wrong that got me charged."

The A2 hitting on 3+ in assault with +1A in the first round of assault is nice, but it doesn't make you good.

Even if they Deep Struck, how good of a position did you allow them?

Did you force them into a corner with a slow walking unit?

How did you respond?

Did you clear out of the corner or did you clean out the corner?

 

Really want you want to be doing is sweeping up the board clearing out any models in front of you.

And you want to be extremely precise in your target priority.

Anything that wounds you on a 3+ or can assault you this turn is first priority.

You want to leave them with just things that are wounding you on 5+... at that point you are effectively fast Knights.


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faithonwings

faithonwings

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Good advice right above this post. 

 

I play a lot on boards with mixed scenary to putting everything out of LOS is ussualy not an option. Being presice is key, a 5+ overwatch is nice but avoid getting charged is a lot better.

 

Also, remember the invul save stratagem from codex space marines to add survivabillity.






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