58 replies to this topic

[Brother Cambrius]

Looking great! Always gives me the warm fuzzies whenever Heraldry is discussed and refined. Either that or my Grox-Curry is beginning to disagree with me...

 

I took the liberty of running it through the older Wargear Painter, so it can fit in with Philip S.'s 1000 Chapter Gallery project once everything is completed.

 

 

Once the flow starts in writing, it can be very fun indeed to see where it goes. Looking forwards to finding out more over the future months!

 

Cambrius

Edited by Brother Cambrius, 01 August 2019 - 09:30 PM.

[Messor]

That scheme is gorgeous, Lunkhead. Great choices.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks everyone for all of your great feedback and advise. It's all been immensely helpful in getting this project on the move

 

The Wargear treatment looks great Brother Cam Thanks for that.

 

I'm really chomping at the bit to get some models painted, but as I've said, most of my hobby empire is in storage and will likely stay there until I finish the new house (finished enough for us to move in that is). I do have my Primaris with me though ( they came out after I locked up my Old Marines in stasis) so I'm going to try and steal some time here and there to work on them. Our current living arrangements don't allow for hobby space, but several of my LFGS's have generously offered me space to work (what a great bunch of folks) so I may have a Primaris army before I even start on my First Gen Marines. As soon as I've got anything painted up, I'll post it.

 

Next on my list of things-to-do for my IA is Force Structure. The Praetorian Sword is generally Codex compliant. Veteran, Battle, Reserve, and Scout Companies will be standard. I'll be adding a Primaris 11th Company per Lord Guilliman's instructions. Taking some inspiration from the Romans and a little personal license, I'm adding one ground vehicle and one flyer Auxiliary. Fleet Command will have a Auxiliary Flight Wing (fighters, interceptors, transport, etc.) and the Armory will be in charge of the Ground Vehicle Support Auxiliary (bikes, speeders, tanks, etc.). Manpower is provided by a reserve pool of "wounded" Space Marines. Some augmented Marines may no longer be ideally suited for line duty but can still command a tank or fly a Stormtalon.

 

Chapter Headquarters will be my first task and will undergo a few changes. I'll be creating permanent staff officer positions directly under the Chapter Master for Masters of the Fleet, Marches, Relics, Victuals, etc. I've always thought it odd that these titles were given to Captains who more often than not would be light years from the Chapter proper to perform these functions. So those honorary titles go and are now given practical positions.

 

All this might sound like a lot of additional Space Marines but it's not..... no more than a company of "walking wounded".

 

That's all for now. As usual, comments and money are always welcome

 

Fury and Fire

[Brother Cambrius]

One thing to note with pilots and drivers, wouldn't they need to be indoctrinated in thecways of the Adeprus Mechanicus to operate the blessed and intricate machinery of those vehicles?

I do love the idea of the walking wounded company, basically are Astartes Phoenixes rising from their fall?

The titles of commanders will be fun. I did some custom ones in my Vanquishers and Sons of Doom befitting more combative roles alongside the standard titles. Notably Master of the Breach for the Company that holds a lot of the bunker/armour busting weaponry. So if you wanted titles beyond the more beauracratic have it it and brainstorm away.

Cambrius

Edited by Brother Cambrius, 04 August 2019 - 11:08 AM.

[The_Bloody]

I like what you have here.

First of all, I share your concerns regarding GW's IP. Having more agency on your Chapter is, in my opinion, one of the best things about making "your dudes".

I really like the way you want to blend different cultures, especially the spartan-hebraic idea. I think it may result in something very original, and look forward to seeing it explored more!

Time travel is not really a concept I love, but it's well established in the setting, so it's totally fair for you to use it and I think you did it in a sensible way. Calgar's role feels consistent, and him interceding on your dude's behalf seems natural and not overdone in terms of "extenal validation from established characters" - which is always a concrete risk. The Inquisition's inspection may have been more fair than I would expect it to be. There is room for bigger and more dramatic grudges here, in my opinion, à la Logan Grimnar and the "tainted" guardsmen. Anyway, +1 for Inquisitor Egotobig!

I agree with Hasoroth regarding Bellerophon's proximity with Guilliman. IIRC the XIIIth had quite a lot of Chapter Masters, so he may have been powerful but relatively obscure at the time, one among a hundred others. This reduces the risks of clashing with GW's lore and is quite futureproof, as H said. The reply you have given him makes me believe you are on the same page, anyway. On the other hand, Bellerophon's reunion with his father in the Dark Imperium would be surely make for an interesting episode.

I also like the "walking wounded" idea as well as the honorary titles reorganization. It makes sense.

Keep going!

Edited by The_Bloody, 04 August 2019 - 11:59 AM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for the feedback guys

 

 

One thing to note with pilots and drivers, wouldn't they need to be indoctrinated in thecways of the Adeprus Mechanicus to operate the blessed and intricate machinery of those vehicles?

I do love the idea of the walking wounded company, basically are Astartes Phoenixes rising from their fall?

The titles of commanders will be fun. I did some custom ones in my Vanquishers and Sons of Doom befitting more combative roles alongside the standard titles. Notably Master of the Breach for the Company that holds a lot of the bunker/armour busting weaponry. So if you wanted titles beyond the more beauracratic have it it and brainstorm away.

Cambrius

 

I know GW always shows Techmarines piloting their flyers and driving their tanks, but I don't think any Space Marine chapter has enough Techmarines to fly and drive every deployed vehicle. More practically, the Forge Master probably indoctrinates all crews in basic vehicle operations and principals, and provides one Techmarine to each deployed company.

 

Astartes Phoenixes...…. EXACTLY

 

Right! Each line commander has a title befitting his responsibility or area of experts. Funny you mentioning "Master of the Breach". My 3rd Battle Company excels at siege breaking and boarding actions and will be kitted out in MkIII armor and boarding shields. I shall be stealing that title from you

 

 

I like what you have here.

First of all, I share your concerns regarding GW's IP. Having more agency on your Chapter is, in my opinion, one of the best things about making "your dudes".

I really like the way you want to blend different cultures, especially the spartan-hebraic idea. I think it may result in something very original, and look forward to seeing it explored more!

Time travel is not really a concept I love, but it's well established in the setting, so it's totally fair for you to use it and I think you did it in a sensible way. Calgar's role feels consistent, and him interceding on your dude's behalf seems natural and not overdone in terms of "extenal validation from established characters" - which is always a concrete risk. The Inquisition's inspection may have been more fair than I would expect it to be. There is room for bigger and more dramatic grudges here, in my opinion, à la Logan Grimnar and the "tainted" guardsmen. Anyway, +1 for Inquisitor Egotobig!

I agree with Hasoroth regarding Bellerophon's proximity with Guilliman. IIRC the XIIIth had quite a lot of Chapter Masters, so he may have been powerful but relatively obscure at the time, one among a hundred others. This reduces the risks of clashing with GW's lore and is quite futureproof, as H said. The reply you have given him makes me believe you are on the same page, anyway. On the other hand, Bellerophon's reunion with his father in the Dark Imperium would be surely make for an interesting episode.

I also like the "walking wounded" idea as well as the honorary titles reorganization. It makes sense.

Keep going!

 

Thanks for the comments Brother Bloody.

 

Yup..... "agency" is the key to happiness for me. GW just had to nudge me over the edge

 

Time travel is not one of my favorite tropes either, but fortunately it worked out well for me. Since the warp is out of normal time and space, I've always envisioned it as having streams of time running forwards, backwards, and sideways. Great breaching events such as the Eye of Terror and the Great Rift create storms that temporarily draw these streams towards them. They are anomalies created as a byproduct of these events and not inventions of ritual or incantation by the Chaos gods or their minions. Fleet Praetor was caught in a storm created by the Great Rift and thrown forward in time towards this event. Given their almost ten thousand year journey, being spit out five or six hundred years before the actual event was practically a bullseye.

 

I tried very carefully to slide my Chapter into current events without being too flashy. The Inquisition never forgets.... There will definitely be an ongoing shadow conflict between the Praetorian Sword and the Ordo Hereticus. Chapter Master Bellerophon drop kicks more than one Inquisition operative out of the airlock!

 

Thanks again everyone.

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 04 August 2019 - 06:08 PM.

[Knight of the Raven]

I had reservations about the confrontation between the Inquisition and Retribution Fleet Praetor, being a little too close to the vicarious one-upmanship I'm used to from several fans of Warhammer 40,000, but it checks out in the end.

I mean, the whole scenario makes sense. Some folks among the Imperium ought to hear about these strange Great Crusade-era fleets sighted here and there for an entire century across the entire galaxy. I don't exactly expect Bellerophon's scattered forces to ignore calls for help as they look for each other, after all. They're Ultramarines, damnit. There's going to be stories about mysterious ships of burned metal and righteous wrath, bearing the sigil of the Thirteenth Legion as they emerge from the mists of ancient time to save the day whether the Retribution Fleet wants them or not.

So yes, it makes much sense that the Inquisition keeps an eye on these strange rumors. And if they're confirmed, it's pretty obvious these survivors are gonna show up in Ultramar at some point.

And five thousand space marines along with their fleet from before a time anything that's not a glorified transport ship was relinquished to the Imperial Navy because of the Codex Astartes are going to put a serious dent in Behemoth, even if they never met a tyranid before. Those other Primogenitor fleets will answer Calgar's call to shields, even without the whole 'saw the primarch with their own eyes' deal. And these friendly chapters were probably recalled to Ultramar as soon as the First Tyrannic War began, and were probably still around to mop up survivors as well, so it's not like Calgar is pulling them out of other theaters of war and dooming entire sectors to an ignominious death in order to even the scales.

Now, onto Bellerophon and Guilliman Returned, even if you don't plan to have much interaction between them.

First, the obvious thing. A retribution fleet is going to be led by someone whose integrity, wisdom and skills are trusted by Guilliman. No question about it. Especially if he's supposed to protect civilians and refugees to boot. So I don't see any issue with Bellerophon being someone important in his chain of command—or even circle of friends or confidentes.

But I feel Guilliman would be very interested in someone from the time of the Imperial Truth when he has to deal with the Ecclesiarchy every day (and apparently 'well-thinking' representatives if my second-hand information is correct). Someone from the time where the Emperor's Dream was shattered and His Imperium bloodied, but unbowed. I'm certain Guilliman wants to spend time with these sons he saw fight with his own eyes, from Chapter Master Mericus Bellerophon to the lowest tactical marine, along with the humans who serve under them.

It's just, you know, he can't afford it. What with the Imperium being torn in half and the inability to be in more than one place at any given time and all.

 

And one thing about the Inquisition. It's not monolithic. For every inquisitor that got upset at the debacle over Retribution Fleet Praetor, there's going to be two inquisitors upset at them for trying to bully the biggest reason the Eastern Fringe is still part of the Imperium.

 

All in all, an interesting chapter, even before my affection for loyalists dragged out of the past and thrown into the present. I think I'll be humming 'We're the Warriors of Ultramar! Protectors of Five Hundred Stars!' for longer than I thought.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for your comments and observations Brother Knight..... I feel like you've been reading my notes......  You haven't, right??

 

Quite right, they ARE Ultramarines! While on his relentless search for survivors of Fleet Praetor, Bellerophon answers any and all calls for aid and smites the enemies of humanity at every opportunity. As far as he's concerned, his fleet was never recalled and he continues to operate under the guidelines of his original orders. Being an Ultramarine means that he's practical as well. While traversing the galactic fringes, he establishes alliances with Rogue Traders, Imperial colonies and Forge worlds (many who value their relative autonomy) thus developing important logistical support chains. In return he can offer protection of the likes many of these traders and worlds may never have known. They will be more than happy to help protect the anonymity of the fleet.....

 

Still, rumors and legends abound about a mysterious ancient Astartes fleet seen beyond the fringes of established Imperial space, dealing death to the Xeno and Heretic, and protecting loyal Imperial and Mechanicus colonies in the far frontiers. Naturally, the Inquisition is aware of these rumors, so when they get wind of Bellerophon's presence on Macragge, they put two and two together.

 

As part of the Praetorian Sword timeline they will have made bolter and chainsword contact with one or more Genestealer Cult(s) and realize that they are a portent to a much greater Xeno threat. They will have also have made contact with at least one isolated Tyranid craft, so by the time Fleet Behemoth rears it's ugly head the Praetorians will have an inkling of what they are about and be able to develop a workable strategy to deal with them.

 

You make a good point about the Inquisition not being monolithic. Relations with Ordo Hereticus will remain strained for a long time, but there will be Inquisitors of that Ordo that Bellerophon will work with. Also, working relations with Ordos Malius and Xenos will be quite good (although Bellerophon doesn't trust these guys either).

 

I also thought that given the fight with the Tyranids was barely over, a checkmate move by Calgar against the Inquisition forces was not unrealistic. Many Primogenitor forces would still be in theater and able to answer a call for aid at short notice.

 

……. I've run out of  time today (gotta go to work) so I'll continue my ramblings tomorrow.

 

Fury and Fire

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 10 August 2019 - 07:18 PM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm back...…. 

 

I'm sure Bellerophon and his boys will have the same cordial relations with the Ecclesiarchy as Guilliman does  I'm sure the Praetors are pretty horrified by how entrenched the deification of the Emperor is in M41. But, it's too well intrenched for them to do or say anything about it, so they don't go out of their way to antagonize the Ecclesiarchy. At the same time they won't broach any interference or attempts by the Ecclesiarchy to use them to their own ends.

 

At the start of the 13th Black Crusade and the cleaving of the galaxy in half, the Praetorian Sword was campaigning against Drukhari pirate clans in the northen galactic fringes. They too are now making due in Imperium Nihilus.

 

It is in this backdrop that Bellerophon is finally united with his Primarch. When Baal calls out for aid against Hive Fleet Leviathan, the Praetorian Sword answers the call. They are very far away and arrive to battle both Leviathan and the daemonic forces of Ka'Bandha. It is in the aftermath of this conflict that Guilliman and Bellerophon briefly meet. Guilliman officially ends the mission of Retribution Fleet Praetor and gives Bellerophon new orders.

 

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

At this time I was planning to present my force organization chart for the Praetorian Sword. However, with the announcement of the new Codex: Space Marines and the Ultramarine supplement, I'm going to hold off until I've had a chance to read them and see what changes have been made. I'm especially interested to see how the Primaris look fully integrated into the chapters. I may make sweeping changes, or I may stick with what I have, or do something in the middle Hard to tell.

 

In the mean time I'll post some of my ideas of what a fleet based chapter looks like, as well as snippets of some short stories I'm working on. I'll also show how the Praetorians react to being reluctant "owners" of a massive slave population.

 

Lots to do, lots to do . 

 

Fury and Fire  

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 11 August 2019 - 06:23 PM.

[Knight of the Raven]

Sorry for the delay and thanks for the answers.
 

Thanks for your comments and observations Brother Knight..... I feel like you've been reading my notes......  You haven't, right??

You're welcome, and I can neither confirm nor deny that. By the way, you forgot to clear your browser history.

As I mentioned, this all makes sense. Bellerophon is making his own, small Imperium Secundus here, in the sense that he's been thrown out of all and any contacts with his hierarchy, into a galaxy he doesn't recognize anymore. What else is there for him to do but follow his initial directive, especially that there are still humans to protect out there?

However, I wrote "as they look for each other" rather than 'as Bellerophon looks for them' for a reason. I realize he's the focus of this homebrew, and I'm not asking you to derail the entire story with unnecessary tales of the other survivors, but I feel the other scattered fleets should have some agency; which isn't what "while on his relentless search for survivors of Fleet Praetor, Bellerophon answers any and all calls for aid" makes me think.

Still, I think I can forgive the Inquisition for getting suspicious. There is an Alpha Legion out there, after all. I wouldn't put it past them to pull a ridiculously long con, pretending to be survivors from the Great Crusade as they build up their little empire.

Speaking of the Inquisition, thanks to one of these strokes of timing as only Fate can pull off, I just so happened to be reading Index Astartes: Rogue Sons a few weeks ago. Since it described the how and why a chapter can turn renegade, it also delved into the Inquisition itself. And it is indeed the Ordo Hereticus that will have the biggest bone to pick with Retribution Fleet Praetor.

A chapter attracts the Ordo Malleus' attention if chaotic taint is suspected; alien influence means the Ordo Xenos. The Ordo Hereticus deals with "doctrinal heresy..." and just what is more heretical than what the Emperor himself really wanted for humanity? The Imperial Truth is the biggest nightmare the Ordo Hereticus can imagine, regardless of which sect they belong to, whether they want the Ecclesiarchy dead or not, because it can utterly annihilate the Imperium.

(Well, in theory at least. Things seem okay now with Guilliman around.)

The article also mentions finding evidence of heresy is nearly impossible since even thoroughly loyal chapters look down upon "prying outsiders." And that the only way to get forces arrayed against a rebel/about-to-rebel chapter often is to petition the masters of other chapters. This is the Ultramarines we're talking about here, so good luck with that, Missus Picious of the Ordo Hereticus... especially that most chapters are closer to the Imperial Truth end of the scale than to the Imperial Creed one.

Bellerophon is right not to trust anyone who 'only answers to the Emperor.' That said, I suspect the Ordos Malleus and Xenos themselves could be quite warm to these five new chapters (once they're certain they can be trusted, at least). They ought to have precious knowledge about aliens in general from the Great Crusade and Chaos in particular from the Horus Heresy. They just might know some things the Ruinous Powers, the daemon primarchs or the Legions were very glad the Imperium had forgotten.

On the subject of xenos, though, I'd suggest against the retribution fleet realizing the genestealers are the harbingers of a bigger threat. As far as I can tell, nobody in the Imperium realized the tyranids were about to attack. Bellerophon and his kindred already felt 'special snowflake' enough with the showdown against the Inquisition, no matter how much the context made sense. Being the only one aware of the incoming hive fleets, even if it's only "an inkling," may be too much. Even if, again, the context helps, what with being stuck in the Eastern Fringe.

Finally;
 

I'll also show how the Praetorians react to being reluctant "owners" of a massive slave population.

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 'reluctant slave owner' anywhere in the Imperium. Outside of alternate heresy World Eaters.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thanks for the response Brother Knight.....No worries on the delay. We all have other stuff to do

 

 

Thanks for your comments and observations Brother Knight..... I feel like you've been reading my notes......  You haven't, right??

 

You're welcome, and I can neither confirm nor deny that. By the way, you forgot to clear your browser history.

Arrrrgh ....I hate it when I do that....... uhoh....

 

 

As I mentioned, this all makes sense. Bellerophon is making his own, small Imperium Secundus here, in the sense that he's been thrown out of all and any contacts with his hierarchy, into a galaxy he doesn't recognize anymore. What else is there for him to do but follow his initial directive, especially that there are still humans to protect out there?

However, I wrote "as they look for each other" rather than 'as Bellerophon looks for them' for a reason. I realize he's the focus of this homebrew, and I'm not asking you to derail the entire story with unnecessary tales of the other survivors, but I feel the other scattered fleets should have some agency; which isn't what "while on his relentless search for survivors of Fleet Praetor, Bellerophon answers any and all calls for aid" makes me think.

 

 

However much I hate even the title "Imperium Secundus" much less the idea, that is fundamentally what he is doing. He's consolidating his forces and acting on his original orders and staying incommunicado with the "current" Imperium until he can get his bearings. 

 

".....as they look for each other"..... Quite right. All concerned parties would be actively searching and calling out as their resources allow. I have story ideas for this alone to keep me busy writing for several years. However, this part of the story is from Bellerophon's point of view.

 

 

 

Still, I think I can forgive the Inquisition for getting suspicious. There is an Alpha Legion out there, after all. I wouldn't put it past them to pull a ridiculously long con, pretending to be survivors from the Great Crusade as they build up their little empire.

Yup...... I could see the AL pulling something like this. However, Bellerophon is not a forgiving sort I drew inspiration for Chapter Master B's personality extensively from Gabriel Seth of the Flesh Tearers. Like Seth,he has a strong sense of honor, intense loyalty to his chapter, and a few secrets to keep, all wrapped up in a very bad temper.

 

 

 

Speaking of the Inquisition, thanks to one of these strokes of timing as only Fate can pull off, I just so happened to be reading Index Astartes: Rogue Sons a few weeks ago. Since it described the how and why a chapter can turn renegade, it also delved into the Inquisition itself. And it is indeed the Ordo Hereticus that will have the biggest bone to pick with Retribution Fleet Praetor.

Thanks for the reference. I'll have to take a look at that. I drew a lot of similar view from Know Thyself, The Soul Drinkers Omnibus, and information on the First War for Armagedon.

 

 

On the subject of xenos, though, I'd suggest against the retribution fleet realizing the genestealers are the harbingers of a bigger threat. As far as I can tell, "nobody in the Imperium'' realized the tyranids were about to attack. Bellerophon and his kindred already felt 'special snowflake' enough with the showdown against the Inquisition, no matter how much the context made sense. Being the only one aware of the incoming hive fleets, even if it's only "an inkling," may be too much. Even if, again, the context helps, what with being stuck in the Eastern Fringe.

 

This idea came from reading Ian Watson's Inquisition Wars. At this time I had no knowledge of the Tyranid association with genestealer cults, but I did have some knowledge of Invasion Strategy (war planning days in the Air Force). Sewing chaos is a standard tactic in softening up an enemy for invasion. I just put two and two together. Bellerophon is probably not the only Chapter Master to have this suspicion. Contact with Tyrannic bio-forms were noted as far back as M35. But even if he makes contact with a Tyranid scout ship, I don't think Bellerophon will have a clue to the actual size of the threat. He will just see a prelude to invasion by some Xeno abomination. In any event, this is all background info that in all likelyhood won't make it in my timeline of events.

 

This whole article is very much a diary for me as I put together the IA for the Praetorian Sword, so it will inevitably contain a lot more info than will appear in the final draft.

 

 

 

 

I'll also show how the Praetorians react to being reluctant "owners" of a massive slave population.

 

I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 'reluctant slave owner' anywhere in the Imperium. Outside of alternate heresy World Eaters.

 

From the research I've done, it seems that Ultramar society does not have a slave class like the Greeks, Romans, or even pre-1866 United States 

It's suggested, although not stated outright that they may have a bondsman class. This would be a form of indentured servitude for a finite amount of time. So, I don't think Bellerophon and the other Praetor Chapter Masters are going to be too excited with being permanently responsible for millions if not tens of millions of "standard" human slaves. The Inquisition probably sees this as an opportunity to reign in the new chapters and infiltrate them.... and if the Praetor Chapters slip up and some of their slaves escape, the Inquisition can come down on them and liquidate the population and censure the chapters. The Praetors will have other ideas of course, and this is where the Hebraic Codes for the treatment of slaves and bond-servants comes in, along with taking advantage of practical logistics. All of this will be covered in later posts.

 

Thanks again for your input. It is all very helpful.

 

Fury and Fire 

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 21 August 2019 - 01:28 AM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

WOW...... has it really been two month since I've posted here? 

 

Four days to go to the close of Phase 1 of LASC19...… can I still get my DIY in under the deadline? Just like the Little Engine That Could, I think I can, I think I can

Along with real life broad siding me over the last few months, I've been fighting a low key guerilla war with my PC (even had to execute my rebel mouse). The real world is still trying to give me the beat down, but my PC is back in line, so I'm ready to write all this stuff down and submit it to The Liber. Fortunately, I've not been inactive in developing the PS. I've been taking copious notes, so it's just a matter of getting them down to the B&C. I've got a couple of days off, so it's nose to the grindstone for me to get it done. Wish me luck Brothers and Sisters.

 

Ave Imperator

[Ace Debonair]

It's almost too appropriate that the Praetorian Sword should reappear in the forum after a prolonged absence.

 

Just think of it as getting into the Chapter's mindset - you've been gone for a while, but there's still work to do.

You've got this, brother - we're all looking forward to seeing what's new with the Chapter!

[Bjorn Firewalker]

You're off to a good start. "Fire and death to the daemon, the heretic, and the xeno. Liberation and hope to the beleaguered Servants of the Emperor. This is our calling and our oath, unto the last breath of the last warrior," is a GREAT quote.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Thank you Brother Bjorn

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Is the "veteran livery" reserved for the 1st Company, or do other Companies' Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans also use it? Either way, the reversed colors will likely highlight the Veterans for enemies seeking to launch decapitation strikes against the Chapter. Are Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans allowed to camouflage their arms and armor, allowing them to get closer to the enemy before the Veterans launch their attacks, and maximize their weapons' effects?

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 06 November 2019 - 06:56 PM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Is the "veteran livery" reserved for the 1st Company, or do other Companies' Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans also use it? Either way, the reversed colors wil likely highlight the Veterans for enemies seeking to launch decapitation strikes against the Chapter. Are Vanguard and Sternguard Veterans allowed to camouflage their arms and armor, allowing them to get closer to the enemy before the Veterans launch their attacks, and maximize their weapons' effects?

 

Yes.... 1st Company livery  All Veterans are denoted with a white laurel on their helmets. About the reverse colors highlighting Veterans to enemies ....... Yup, you are absolutely right and I'm in total agreement  If I had my way Space Marines would ALL wear chameleon armor with subdued heraldry and markings. But, you know Space Marines..... they're an eccentric, anachronistic, and sentimental lot when it comes to things like livery, heraldry, and other bling. The Ultramarines veterans have their big ol' white helmets (even I have one of those..... sigh...peer pressure) and white pauldrons. Blood Angel vets have bright yellow ones. Fortunately, the Pretorian Sword are a practical lot. The Chapter Master authorizes the use of camouflage as needed (remember all the cool camo variants from the RT days), and the Battle Brothers are happy to use it.

 

As for the Vet livery standing out and Vets being at risk of being targeted, current doctrine doesn't allow for standing still or smokin' and jokin' moments which is when decapitation strikes usually occur. The PS Vets and Vanguards will be launching the decapitation strikes and the enemy will be too busy dying to worry about such things

[Brother Lunkhead]

Next up is...... THE FLEET

Chapter Fleet

 

B

eing a fleet-based chapter, the Praetorian Sword boasts a sizable fleet with a large variety of vessels for both combat operations and support. It is a veritable warp capable Chapter World.  Form huge Battle Barges and forge tenders to small scout sloops and supply transports, whether a combat or support vessel, all ships of the fleet have one single mission, support Space Marine combat operations.

 

Battle Fleet

 

Once part of the vast ancient Retribution Fleet Praetor, the Battle Fleet of the Praetorian Sword is made up of for all practical purposes, the prototype ships-of-the-line of modern Space Marine battle fleets. These ships are a mix of rebuilt and repaired Crusade era ships to newly built (new for them) post Horus Heresy fighting vessels. Gone however, were the vast sculptured elegant ships of the Crusade. These fighting ships were a leaner, more practical and angry breed of starships, rechristened with names befitting a fleet designed specifically to deal out the Emperor's mercy and justice. Although from an earlier era, Astartes and Imperial Navy crews of the 41st and 42nd millennium recognize the lines of modern Battle Barges, Strike and Vanguard Cruisers, Gladius Frigates, Hunter Destroyers, and Nova Frigates.

 

Lance Frigate Controversy

 

When the five new Astartes Chapters were created, the still vast Praetor fleet was divided up between the chapters, each in accordance to it's mission and needs. Many ships of the former Retribution Fleet however, were now forbidden to Space Marine chapters. These mighty battleships, heavy cruisers and other ships-of-the-line were offered up to the Imperial Navy, which gladly accepted them. Conspicuously missing from the intended Imperial Navy manifest were the bulk of the large number of lance frigates that Fleet Praetor was known to have. When queried on this subject, Chapter Master Bellerophon shrugged and noted that each squadron of the new chapter fleets possessed one proto-Nova Frigate. He commented that being fleet based in nature and not relying on Imperial Naval support for many operations, the Astartes fleets would require a small number of ship killers for fleet defense. In actuality, Bellerophon deeply distrusted Imperial Navy High Command and their ties to the Inquistion. He considered both groups to be duplicitous and Machiavellian. The Nova Frigates were not only a vital part of fleet operations but a deterrent against any overt moves against the new chapters by the Inquisition or their Imperial Navy "lackeys". He never denied having more in reserve for "refit and repair purposes", but declined to state how many. When Imperial Navy representative repeatedly "requested" that the lance frigates be turned over to them, Bellerophon's response was always the same, "Molon labe." To date the Imperial Navy has declined his offer.

 

Battle Fleet Operations

 

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Lupos Operations

 

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Task Force 34 Operations

 

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Fleet Order of Battle

 

Battle Barges (3)

• Fury of Terra (Flagship)
• Gladius Resplendent
• Retribution's Hand

Strike Cruisers (5)

• Warlight
• Don Cesare
• Avatar of Justice
• Indominable Patavius
• Reckoning

Vanguard Cruisers (3)

• Herald of Vengeance
• Cor Ira
• Silent Sword

Gladius Frigates (11)

 

Hunter Destroyers (11)

 

Nova Frigates (?)

 

Rudense Class Rapid Insertion Craft (6) (Primaris)

 

Faustus Scout/Interceptors (6)

 

Notable Fleet Engagements

 

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Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 06 November 2019 - 10:57 PM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Going to change things around a bit in Organization section I'm retitling it Chapter Organization Underneath this banner will come some of the other subjects that should be under Chapter Organization So, without further ado......

 

CHAPTER ORGANIZATION

 

D

escended directly from Roboute Guilliman's XIII Legion, the Praetorian Sword Chapter brings a unique perspective to Space Marine operations. At the time of the Dark Imperium there were still a few who still remembered the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They were there when their beloved Primarch was still writing his Codex and a time before the Chapters. Still, loyal to the ideals and logistical acumen of the Lord Commander of the Imperium, they are a Codex compliant chapter. But they remember his most important if not controversial directive, "Do whatever is necessary to win."

 

Per directions from the Codex, the Praetorian Sword Chapter is divided into ten companies, each containing one hundred Battle Brothers. Each is lead by a Battle Captain and retinue chosen from or by the Chapter Command. These Command Squads are made up of the Chapter's  wisest and most valiant warriors, heroes in every sense of the word. The Chapter Master leads this mighty force with leadership and support of his Chapter Command, Armoury, Apothecarion, Reclusium, Librarius. The Chapter sails into battle aboard the mighty void-worthy fighting ships of the Chapter Fleet. The powerful weapons of the fleet ensure that the Chapter's most potent weapons, its Astartes are supported and delivered on target by the fleet's many drop pods and transports. Further support is had from the tanks, artillery, interceptors, fighter craft, and  gunships of the Armoury.

 

In the 1st Company you will find the Chapter's most seasoned veterans. They possess martial skills, and tactical and strategic wisdom possessed by only a few outside of the company. These are skills hard won. These warriors have spent decades and In some cases, centuries fighting the Emperor's enemies. When fighting as a whole, the 1st Company is a mighty force to be reckoned with. However, the Veteran Company seldom fights as a company. Individuals and squads are more often found lending their martial skill and knowledge to individual strike forces, battle-line companies and reserve companies. Spread over multiple war zones, Veterans of the 1st Company are a considerable force multiplier.

 

The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Companies comprise the Chapter's Battle Companies, and are the mainstay of the Praetorian Sword's fighting force. Strike Forces are primarily drawn from the Battle Companies. While the Praetorian Sword is known and feared for it's massive chapter assaults, it is still rare to see more than one Battle Company in a war zone, as one is usually more than sufficient to crush an enemy. Except for the 1st Company, it is in these Battle Companies you will find the Praetorian Sword's most experienced battle-forged Astartes.

 

In war zones across the Imperium, as Battle Company casualties increase or more fire power is needed to dislodge an enemy, the Squads of the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th Reserve Companies are called in. It is seldom that the Reserve Companies fight as cohesive units. Due to the vast distances from the Fleet Proper that Strike Forces and Battle Companies normally engage in battle, individual Reserve Company Squads are more often than not, embedded with these more experienced battle groups where they can be called on at a moment's notice.

 

The 6th and 7th Reserve Companies are each made up of one hundred Batttleline Astartes, divided into ten squads. It is in these Battleline Companies that young Astartes truly put into practice all they have learned since their early days as Neophytes. Here, they not only fight in fully functional battleline squads, but learn to fight from Bikes, Land Speeders, and the primary battle tanks of the Chapter, the Predator and Repulsor.  Astartes are not simply super soldiers, fighting in squads and from formations of light fast attack vehicles and chapter tanks, but like the knights of old, individual warriors of legend. It is from the 6th and 7th Companies that each Space Marine executes his first individual special missions and quests. These missions range from ambassadorial missions, representing the Chapter at the inauguration of a new planetary governor to delivering a primitive Imperial world from the predations of insidious xeno or corrupted foes that they are ill equipped to defeat or even understand. From these two companies, individual Space Marines become true warriors and enter the ranks of the Battle Companies.

 

The one hundred Battle-Brothers of the 8th Company constitute the close support reserve force of the Praetorian Sword Chapter. This company is made up entirely of war hardened Space Marines from battle-line squads of the Chapter's Battle Companies. They are specifically chosen for their aggression and close combat skill and forged further in the techniques of shock attack and close quarter killing. Many Chapter and Company Champions have come through the ranks of the 8th Company.

 

When Strike Forces and Battle Companies require additional heavy weapons' support, the Battle-Brothers of the 9th Fire Support Reserve Company are called on to rain fire and death upon the enemies of the Emperor. For the one hundred Battle-Brothers that constitute the 9th Company, this is their first experience as full fledged Astartes. When a Neophyte of the 10th Company receives his Black Carapace and Power Armor as a recognized Space Marine, he enters the ranks of the 9th Company. It is here he receives his initial training in heavy weapons use and deployment, as well as basic infantry tactics. It is in these ranks he also tastes front-line combat for the first time.

 

It is in the ranks of the 10th Scout Company that young Neophytes are forged into and receive their initial training and indoctrination that will transform them into the Emperor's Angels of Death, the most feared warriors in the galaxy. Under the watchful eye of Brother Captain Romulus Jonistus, Master of Recruits, the Scout Sergeants of the 10th Company train Neophytes in the arts of reconnaissance, stealth, sabotage, sniper operations, and other special operations. Whether through hypno-indoctrination or practical field operations, young Scouts learn all the skills necessary to act as the eyes, ears, and weapons of the Chapter behind enemy lines.

 

The 10th is also the home of ten Vanguard Squads of the Praetorian Sword Chapter. The Vanguard are the Chapter's elite reconnaissance and special operations warriors, dealing death and terror to the enemy from the shadows. 

 

Whether elites of the Vanguard Squads or raw neophyte Scouts, all of the 10th Company are vital elements in the Chapter's war efforts.

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 06 November 2019 - 10:45 PM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

While waiting for some LASC 2018 Phase 2 updates, I've been adding to the IA for my Praetorian Sword. Please take a look at Posts 43 and 44, and let me know what you think thus far. There's still more in my head and in notes than set down here, but time and life..... Thanks muchly

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

 

Lance Frigate Controversy

 

When the five new Astartes Chapters were created, the still vast Praetor fleet was divided up between the chapters, each in accordance to it's mission and needs. Many ships of the former Retribution Fleet however, were now forbidden to Space Marine chapters. These mighty battleships, heavy cruisers and other ships-of-the-line were offered up to the Imperial Navy, which gladly accepted them. Conspicuously missing from the intended Imperial Navy manifest were the bulk of the large number of lance frigates that Fleet Praetor was known to have. When queried on this subject, Chapter Master Bellerophon shrugged and noted that each squadron of the new chapter fleets possessed one proto-Nova Frigate. He commented that being fleet based in nature and not relying on Imperial Naval support for many operations, the Astartes fleets would require a small number of ship killers for fleet defense. In actuality, Bellerophon deeply distrusted Imperial Navy High Command and their ties to the Inquistion. He considered both groups to be duplicitous and Machiavellian. The Nova Frigates were not only a vital part of fleet operations but a deterrent against any overt moves against the new chapters by the Inquisition or their Imperial Navy "lackeys". He never denied having more in reserve for "refit and repair purposes", but declined to state how many. When Imperial Navy representative repeatedly "requested" that the lance frigates be turned over to them, Bellerophon's response was always the same, "Molon labe." To date the Imperial Navy has declined his offer.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure about this whole chunk. I think it's a little clunky and is too specific. I think alluding to the entire problem and implying various things is better than outright stating it. The entire section suffers from 'too much detail' syndrome that a lot of IA writers suffer from. The Inquisition is known by and large to be extremely Machiavellian, though that's a term which should be avoided as it grounds the chapter too much in current reality, I feel.

 

Essentially any Imperial servant can be an agent of the Inquisition, from Navy to Guard, Arbites to Astartes. The offer is either serve or die in most cases, so the expectation is not unwarranted. To include the navy as a whole in this attitude is a bit over the top, considering if this chapter has a 'golden age' remembrance it wouldn't fit with the navy they knew, nor the organization that has descended from it's ancient heritage. The issue is with the Inquisition, rather than the Navy in this regard. The justification for keeping the frigates is fine and most wouldn't necessarily argue with a Chapter Master in any case. They might lodge a complaint or a report but that'd be it.

 

Many chapters operate with ships from before the heresy as the ships themselves are passed down through history and are not necessarily replaced, given the technology involved and relative difficulty of manufacture.

 

I think perhaps friction between the chapter and the Inquisition is fine, whether it's over fleet assets or anything else or perhaps everything in general given their attitudes, but this is a bit too hyper specific for my tastes.

 

I understand what you want to get out of it, but I feel it could be done better with a broader brush and a difference of operation, character and judgement rather than a particular piece of wargear.

 

 

For the entire block, unless it's a specific ship that has a relevant history or engagement which should be covered in a sidebar, I don't think you need to detail the entire fleet. Perhaps detail different wings or battle-groups under different companies or officers, but that'd be as detailed as I'd go.

 

Detail can be good in certain circumstances as I mentioned with a sidebar. Specific operations, battle-groups, officers and so on, but too much can really bog down the flow of an IA. Think about what you want the reader to get from your IA overall, the feeling, the character. The serial numbers on the bolters of the first company drives none of this. An IA is a narrative, not a list. While we work with military organisations, the universe is a narrative one.

 

Apologies, I'll stop lecturing. I think you get what I'm driving at.

 

If I've missed something, let me know. I feel like my head is buzzing now and I may be missing things. I've been saying this all day but I really don't want to misrepresent someones work or criticize something unfairly if I've made a mistake. I won't be making this disclaimer forever, just until my head clears up....

 

.... that may be never.....

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Brother Grey,

 

No wonder your head is buzzing You've been very busy. Thanks for taking a look at my IA (such as it Is) and the thorough commentary. Let's get down to it....

 

Grey Hunter Ydalir

Posted Yesterday, 08:57 PM

 

I'm not sure about this whole chunk. I think it's a little clunky and is too specific. I think alluding to the entire problem and implying various things is better than outright stating it. The entire section suffers from 'too much detail' syndrome that a lot of IA writers suffer from. The Inquisition is known by and large to be extremely Machiavellian, though that's a term which should be avoided as it grounds the chapter too much in current reality, I feel.

 

Valid points all. You might have noticed that my whole IA is rather piecemeal and clunky at the moment I'm still setting down my notes into a proper narative, and putting it in here as it comes to mind. I don't wonder at all why you thought this was "too much detail". As I finish the first part of my Chapter History and the Section on Fleet Ops, especially the section marked Lupos Operations this will become clear. The Praetorian Sword will be pushing comfort zones in the area of Space Marine naval operations I should have that all down for review by next month. I put this down first as I had a clear view of what I wanted to say.

 

"Machiavellian".... quite  right about that. It was just that I couldn't think of another way of putting it at the time. I'll correct it in my next edit.

 

Essentially any Imperial servant can be an agent of the Inquisition, from Navy to Guard, Arbites to Astartes. The offer is either serve or die in most cases, so the expectation is not unwarranted. To include the navy as a whole in this attitude is a bit over the top, considering if this chapter has a 'golden age' remembrance it wouldn't fit with the navy they knew, nor the organization that has descended from it's ancient heritage. The issue is with the Inquisition, rather than the Navy in this regard.

 

"Serve or die" yes, they really wouldn't have much choice. Once again the choice aspect will be brought into play as I set the initial history down. Also, the issue if not with "the navy as a whole" but with the Navy High Command or more specifically, specific persons within the High Command of Battle Fleet Ultra who have designs on certain ships of the Praetorian Sword fleet. I should have been more specific there.

 

Many chapters operate with ships from before the heresy as the ships themselves are passed down through history and are not necessarily replaced, given the technology involved and relative difficulty of manufacture.

and

I understand what you want to get out of it, but I feel it could be done better with a broader brush and a difference of operation, character and judgement rather than a particular piece of wargear.

 

Many chapters do operate with some powerful ships from before the Heresy, and many chapters have a few Nova-class frigates. Since these vessels are strictly void war capital ship hunters (and almost twice as fast and better armored than equivalent Imperial Naval ships), both the Imperial Navy and the Inquisition do not like this, as they view them as disruptors in the balance of power within the Imperium. But as they are a rare site both parties grumble, but generally take a blind eye approach to the issue. The problem here is that Praetor has a LOT of these ships and although he distributes some to the other newly formed chapters, he's keeping the rest  Certain persons within the Ultra Segmentum Fleet want these ships and during negotiations for the other ships of Fleet Praetor, Bellerophon gets the impression that they will go to great lengths (short of direct confrontation) to get them. Elements of the Ordo Heretics would be happy to help them. Therein lies the importance of these ships and the conflict. They are not just a "particular piece of war gear". They represent real power to whoever wheels them.

 

The serial numbers on the bolters of the first company drives none of this. An IA is a narrative, not a list.

 

Don't worry.... this won't be Jane's Handbook of the Praetorian Sword, I promise

 

I hope I don't come across as argumentative. Your critique is most valuable and greatly appreciated. Thanks again for taking the time and I hope to keep your head buzzing.

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 06 December 2019 - 11:45 PM.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I have been busy but it's not good to preface all of my commentary with some kind of 'get out of jail' caveat if I've made some kind of bone-headed mistake or misinterpretation, though I appreciate the benefit of the doubt!

 

 

 

Many chapters do operate with some powerful ships from before the Heresy, and many chapters have a few Nova-class frigates. Since these vessels are strictly void war capital ship hunters (and almost twice as fast and better armored than equivalent Imperial Naval ships), both the Imperial Navy and the Inquisition do not like this, as they view them as disruptors in the balance of power within the Imperium. But as they are a rare site both parties grumble, but generally take a blind eye approach to the issue. The problem here is that Praetor has a LOT of these ships and although he distributes some to the other newly formed chapters, he's keeping the rest  Certain persons within the Ultra Segmentum Fleet want these ships and during negotiations for the other ships of Fleet Praetor, Bellerophon gets the impression that they will go to great lengths (short of direct confrontation) to get them. Elements of the Ordo Heretics would be happy to help them. Therein lies the importance of these ships and the conflict. They are not just a "particular piece of war gear". They represent real power to whoever wheels them.

 

 

 

I think to put it more succinctly I have an issue with numbers in general. Specifics in the Imperium are hard to come by, you have hundreds of years of errors both practical and say, rounding errors. The only way for an outside organisation to know exactly how many ships of one type this chapter has access to would be to line them up and count them, really.

 

If your old mate wants to avoid trouble, he'd simply have them mobile and simply refuse to share accurate counts on his chapter resources as many other chapters do. I understand what you want, I simply think you could get more out of being slightly less specific in your own listing, as well as working in how the Inquisition is working more on suspicion. Whether they're right or not is another thing, and whether you imply they are or not is another.

 

Perhaps it's personal, I prefer things to have some intrigue and 40k to me has always been somewhat imprecise and have some level of intrigue. No one quite knows what anyone else is really doing, what they have, where they are or when they'll get there. It's one of the key points of the setting for me.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings All,

 

Thanks for the quick response Brother Grey. Let's get right into it, ok?

 

Grey Hunter Ydalir

Posted Yesterday, 07:32 PM

 

I have been busy but it's not good to preface all of my commentary with some kind of 'get out of jail' caveat if I've made some kind of bone-headed mistake or misinterpretation, though I appreciate the benefit of the doubt!

 

Anyone with a life these days is busy, so no worries. Time is precious to all of us, so I'm thankful you're spending some of that valuable time here. 

 

I think to put it more succinctly I have an issue with numbers in general. Specifics in the Imperium are hard to come by, you have hundreds of years of errors both practical and say, rounding errors. The only way for an outside organisation to know exactly how many ships of one type this chapter has access to would be to line them up and count them, really.

 

No...… not really. Keep in mind Bellerophon and is boys have been around for a century or more in their original colors of the XIII Legion. Knight of the Raven points out:

 

Knight of the Raven

Posted 10 August 2019 - 01:18 AM

 

I mean, the whole scenario makes sense. Some folks among the Imperium ought to hear about these strange Great Crusade-era fleets sighted here and there for an entire century across the entire galaxy. I don't exactly expect Bellerophon's scattered forces to ignore calls for help as they look for each other, after all. They're Ultramarines, damnit. There's going to be stories about mysterious ships of burned metal and righteous wrath, bearing the sigil of the Thirteenth Legion as they emerge from the mists of ancient time to save the day whether the Retribution Fleet wants them or not.

So yes, it makes much sense that the Inquisition keeps an eye on these strange rumors.

 

A century or so of collected intelligence (witness interrogations, wide spectrum electromagnetic sensor records, etc.) would give Imperial parties a rough idea of ships classes and numbers. They don't need exact numbers when presented with a complete absence of a ship class that the Navy and Inquisition know should be there in great numbers.

 

Grey Hunter Ydalir

Posted Yesterday, 07:32 PM

 

If your old mate wants to avoid trouble, he'd simply have them mobile and simply refuse to share accurate counts on his chapter resources as many other chapters do. I understand what you want, I simply think you could get more out of being slightly less specific in your own listing, as well as working in how the Inquisition is working more on suspicion.

 

Who said Bellerophon gave them an all inclusive list of all of the ships in his fleet, hoping upon the good will of the other parties involved in the negotiations that they'll do the right thing  ? My "old mate" (that's "Chapter Master Old Mate" to you son) gives the buyers a basic list of ships he's going to sell, smiles and says, "ok gents let's talk deal." They ask uncomfortable questions about proto-Nova frigates and Bellerophon, being the honorable badass chapter master that he is tells them the quantity of truth he feels they need, but no more. He then reminds them of all the cool giant war ships he IS going to give them so long as they don't piss him off any more than he already is.

 

Now let me be clear that we are NOT talking about a separate fleet of hundreds of nova frigates. I'm not going to give numbers, but we are talking about just enough to give whoever possesses them a strategic advantage. Bellerophon knows that he's dealing with people who want power, and what's more important than the survival of the Imperium or power..... well power of course

 

Perhaps it's personal, I prefer things to have some intrigue and 40k to me has always been somewhat imprecise and have some level of intrigue. No one quite knows what anyone else is really doing, what they have, where they are or when they'll get there. It's one of the key points of the setting for me.

 

Don't worry, there'll be plenty of intrigue for you once I've finished this thing. I myself generally prefer the less is more school of story telling myself. However, in order to make this thing readable to the greatest number of people I want to balance the story  between those who want nothing explained and those who want everything explained.

 

This ongoing conversation has been a lot of fun and hugely helpful for me, I hope you're getting something out of it as well. It's very nice when I get positive feedback, and it truly gives me pleasure when I know people like what I'm writing. But, it's when my ideas are challenged that I get the greatest workout from and gives me the greatest pause for thought. Thanks to you all for commenting.

Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 07 December 2019 - 07:53 PM.

[Brother Lunkhead]

FINALLY ....... After much gnashing of teeth and many hours of prayers and appeasement to the machine spirit I'm finally able to download my sketches of the Praetorian Sword Heraldry. These are just sketches and I'll clean them up and detal them out as time permits. The first one is the foundation for the formal chapter coat of arms, while the second and third will serve as chapter marks for the Brothers. Let me know what you think