Successor Chapter rules query

[Knoffles]

Hi all,

 

Apologies if this is an obvious answer to a question but i've played precisely 1 game of 8th, done a bit of a search on the forum (got confused by the Goonhammer review) and just wanted some clarification on a rule.

 

I have a DIY SM chapter that I tend to run as an Imperial Fists successor (all SM no soup) on the rare occasion I play a game. As an IF successor they will get the standard IF chapter tactic of Siege Masters (ignore cover & bolt shots of 6 score an additional hit).

 

My question is around the Legacy of Dorn rule (the +1 damage vs vehicles/buildings when devastator doctrine is active).

 

As a successor, do you only get this ability if you choose the inheritors of the Primarch trait?

 

The only reason I can think of to take that trait, is to access the second 'ability' that the codex's give (IF - Legacy of Dorn/IH - Calculated Fury etc.).

 

The reason Goonhammer confused me is it said: If every model in your army is IMPERIAL FISTS or are from the same Imperial Fists successor chapter, models with the Combat Doctrine ability gain the “Legacy of Dorn” ability. So it basically says that you get it, even if you are a successor chapter. 

 

Is that correct?

 

I appreciate that access to relics/special characters is limited to the founding Chapter or by using strategems but I thought it would be more restrictive.

 

Cheers (in advance) for your input.

 

 

 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ok, so... Strict RAW, if you actually are the Chapter, you get access to everything.

 

If you choose to be a Successor, you get no access to Characters, and no native access to the Chapter Relic list, but full access to Special-Issue Wargear, Relics, Stratagems, Psychic Powers, Warlord Traits, Objectives, and Doctrine Bonus.

As a Successor, you can choose between picking your own Tactics entirely, or choosing to be an Inheritor of whichever Primarch you're descended from, at which point you get the Chapters unique Tactic that cannot be fully copied via the Successor Tactics, but still lack access to the Characters and have to use a Stratagem to access the Chapter Relics.

 

 

EDIT: To continue, if we go strictly by RAW/RAI, the only way to gain access to the characters is to actually be that Chapter, but as many point out, there is no rule actually about how Ultramarines are painted, for example, so nothing to explicitly state that your Marines from the esteemed Chapter of YourGuys aren't actually just Ultramarines in camo, etc. If you're playing friendly matches, you're unlikely to run into any trouble, but it's worth discussing with any Tournament Organizers. The intent definitely seems to be that unless your guys are recognisably Imperial Fists, then you're only Fist Successors.

I don't really agree with not being able to use characters unless you're actually that Chapter, but given the fact that Inheritors is a thing, it definitely seems to be how the rules are intended.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Lord_Caerolion

[jaxom]

 

My question is around the Legacy of Dorn rule (the +1 damage vs vehicles/buildings when devastator doctrine is active).

 

As a successor, do you only get this ability if you choose the inheritors of the Primarch trait?

 

.....

So it basically says that you get it, even if you are a successor chapter. 

 

Is that correct?

 

I appreciate that access to relics/special characters is limited to the founding Chapter or by using strategems but I thought it would be more restrictive.

 

Cheers (in advance) for your input.

 

The latter is correct. The super doctrine is independent of Chapter Tactics and is solely dependent on primogenitor and if the entire army is from the same chapter.

 

Any successor chapter either has a pre-existing lore primogenitor (e.g. Crimson Fists are known to be descended from Dorn, Novamarines are known to be descended from Guilliman) or you can choose their primogenitor. Any chapter with Dorn as primogenitor gets access to Legacy of Dorn.

[Knoffles]

Thanks for the responses. So to further clarify, as a successor, only by picking inheritors of the Primarch would you get access to the unique chapter trait (for Imperial Fists - the ignores cover and ‘exploding’ 6’s)?

[jaxom]

Correct, Inheritor gives the successor chapter the same Chapter Tactic rules as the primarch’s First Founding chapter (important distinction because one cannot choose the unique Chapter Tactic for the Second Founding Black Templars or Crimson Fists).

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes. Each actual Chapter Tactic is unable to be fully replicated by the Successor Tactics, or even partly in some cases like the Imperial Fists. Inheritors gets you access  to their Tactic, being the Chapter gets you the Tactic, their characters, and native access to the Chapter Relic list without using a Stratagem.

[Kallas]

Edit: Misread stuff, ignore.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Kallas

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Inheritors gets you access  to their Tactic, being the Chapter gets you the Tactic, their characters, and native access to the Chapter Relic list without using a Stratagem.

 

*Sigh*

 

No, it doesn't get you access to the Characters and non-Stratagem access to the Chapter Relics. Only being that actual Chapter does that.

 

 

That's what I said. "Being the Chapter gets you the Tactic, their Characters, and native access".

[CCE1981]

 

 

Inheritors gets you access to their Tactic, being the Chapter gets you the Tactic, their characters, and native access to the Chapter Relic list without using a Stratagem.

*Sigh*

 

No, it doesn't get you access to the Characters and non-Stratagem access to the Chapter Relics. Only being that actual Chapter does that.

Kallas please re-read what you quoted

[Kallas]

That's what I said. "Being the Chapter gets you the Tactic, their Characters, and native access".

 

Kallas please re-read what you quoted

 

Yup, sorry guys, my bad! My brain skipped some words at the end of the line break and interpreted it all wrong!

Edited November 6, 2019 by Kallas

[Lord_Caerolion]

Haha, all good. It's pretty easy to gloss over, particularly given the number of misinterpretations that are floating around out there.

[Knoffles]

Thanks all. The help in getting this clear in my head was very much appreciated.

[CCE1981]

No worries mate.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It's what we're here for. Everyone's new at some point, and hey, there's a lot of rules in a lot of books, all interacting different ways. This is the first time we've had so many "levels" of Chapter Tactics existing, it used to be just either "nobody gets them, you just paint them different ways", or "you pick your Founding Chapter, and that's what you count as". 

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

This version is the best, by far.  I can for the first time ever, play my dyi RG sucessor, the way i have dreamed.  My chapter has Raven Guard geneseed but don't focus stealth.  They feel "Camouflage is the color of cowardice.".  I can choose CT out of the vanilla codex, and blend them freely with th RG supplement.  Small cp tax.  Ive never been happier.

[Claws and Effect]

They feel "Camouflage is the color of cowardice."

And the fact that the targets they shoot at in training are usually brightly colored is lost on them.....

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

 

They feel "Camouflage is the color of cowardice."

And the fact that the targets they shoot at in training are usually brightly colored is lost on them.....

There is a bunch that has been lost on my chapter. They have fallen a bit from their root tree. Only a hand full of them left. Less then 50. They beg for help from other chapters. I have about anouther 50 Marines from many different chapters mixed in all my squads. They are only able to exist because a Rouge Trader has taken them in as a part of his retinue.

 

The only thing that really ties them to the XIX is skill with jump packs. Thoughts of revenge for Istavaan V, and Shadow captains.

 

I've been trying to play this obscure story for so long an had to settle for RG tactics, if I was lucky that year. Now I can have my cake and eat it.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

They feel "Camouflage is the color of cowardice."

And the fact that the targets they shoot at in training are usually brightly colored is lost on them.....

There is a bunch that has been lost on my chapter. They have fallen a bit from their root tree. Only a hand full of them left. Less then 50. They beg for help from other chapters. I have about anouther 50 Marines from many different chapters mixed in all my squads. They are only able to exist because a Rouge Trader has taken them in as a part of his retinue.

 

The only thing that really ties them to the XIX is skill with jump packs. Thoughts of revenge for Istavaan V, and Shadow captains.

 

I've been trying to play this obscure story for so long an had to settle for RG tactics, if I was lucky that year. Now I can have my cake and eat it.

By all means, have a blast with it.

 

I was just giving you some good natured ribbing from a TRUE son of Corax.

 

;)

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Ouch... That sounds a bit close to what happened to those Wolves from Ctonia.  But it hurt so it must have hit something sensitive.  The Axiom of Stealth has ben forgotten but the Axiom of Victory is perhaps overcompensated.  Even if idont get to play any more Corvade games, ill try to illuminate the Grimdarke.

[The Wolfguard]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this but had a question - I'm trying to push my ultramarines into a melee focus, so I'm using 3x2 units of victrix honour guard as well as regular honour guard, with them being in an impulsor and rhino respectively. I'm trying to figure out however, would a successor get access to these units? From what I'm reading here yes, right? That would mean pushing them to be melee would be much easier?

 

So I could take these 12 models and apply successor chapter tactics to them, something like duellist or whirlwind of rage, is that correct? Neither of them are characters and the Victrix Guard can be taken without Marneus Calgar.

 

Edit: After reading the book further I'm highly doubting it, instead of having <CHAPTER> they have <ULTRAMARINES> And no way of swapping that to a successor, so I'm gonna say it's a no.. shame :(

Edited November 20, 2019 by The Wolfguard

[Disruptor_fe404]

You can use the Honour Guard datasheets from the Index. Victrix are indeed limited to ULTRAMARINES though.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Any Characters cannot change their Keywords, as those are not explicitly mentioned as changing for Successors, unlike all the other rules. As such, unless you actually are Keyword Ultramarines, therefore using their Chapter Tactic, you cannot use Victrix Guard, etc. 

[jaxom]

<CHAPTER> can become ULTRAMARINES, but ULTRAMARINES cannot become <CHAPTER>.

[The Wolfguard]

Ah yeahhh, sad days, I was looking forwards to trying out duellist on them! Oh well, I'll still be running them anyway that's for sure!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Make sure to take the Chapter Champion... he’s a real beast.